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Post by kustokie on Aug 30, 2015 2:53:18 GMT
It's a fucking big issue, after 4 games we've scored 3 goals. You're not not going to win many points if you can't score. And you're not if you going to concede 1 a game either. Erm? Played 4, scored 3, conceded 5. That translates to 29-48 over 38 games, or 19 less than we scored last season and 3 more than we conceded. Nor exactly good enough for a top 10 finish. Having said that, sorting the midfield will put less pressure on the defense and create more chances going forward. Looked like we had it figured out, until Laurel and Hardy got sent off.
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Post by blackpoolred on Aug 30, 2015 4:59:05 GMT
I think we may have become accustomed to an unusually high standard of defending because we have had 7 years of Shawcross (as well as Faye and Huth). None of our CBs are atrocious. They are just very average defensively, but decent on the ball. They have good games and bad games. Sometimes they make mistakes and occasionally those mistakes cost you. It is what most teams at this level should be used to, accept we have never had to worry about it before because we had Ryan Shawcross. I thought we had a wealth of players to choose from and were a top 6 team according to 99% of the folk on this board. You are correct though our central defenders are average at best and way down on previous players that we have had in these positions, we are in for a long ride to xmas and some absolute molestings on our travels if we keep the back 4 that Hughes seems to have settled for and the midfield in front of them. They are all decent on the ball and that is obviously all that concerns Hughes. When asked in the pre-match conference how we were going to defend set pieces, Hughes eluded to the fact, not that he had them training for hours on how to defend them, but how the best plan was not to conceed any set plays in the first place That answer alone tells me that Hughes has concerns about their defending capabilities, but the question is, is he going to try and live with it or rectify the problem. The answer will be revealed within the next couple of days and it is one that is giving me cold sweats. In answer to the OP - yes we do need a centre back ASAP
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Post by silverdollar on Aug 30, 2015 10:57:02 GMT
I think we may have become accustomed to an unusually high standard of defending because we have had 7 years of Shawcross (as well as Faye and Huth). None of our CBs are atrocious. They are just very average defensively, but decent on the ball. They have good games and bad games. Sometimes they make mistakes and occasionally those mistakes cost you. It is what most teams at this level should be used to, accept we have never had to worry about it before because we had Ryan Shawcross. I find this quite amusing! It is very interesting how the myth about Huth and Shawcross has become deeply entrenched in our psyche. During these magnificent years of defending where were we finishing in the league? How was our team set up to play? Who was continually on the media saying how poor our players are in comparison with other teams in the league? Too many fans were duped into thinking how small our team was. Of course when we survived in what were very poor years for the Premier League people came to believe that it must have been our defenders who had completed a miracle and they were Gods. Huth and Shawcross are basically good team players who put their bodies on the line and have fought valiantly for the cause at Stoke. Both deserve to be thought of highly as Stoke players but if they were so brilliant why haven't some of the top teams come in and tried to tempt them away?
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Post by philm87 on Aug 30, 2015 18:30:59 GMT
I think we may have become accustomed to an unusually high standard of defending because we have had 7 years of Shawcross (as well as Faye and Huth). None of our CBs are atrocious. They are just very average defensively, but decent on the ball. They have good games and bad games. Sometimes they make mistakes and occasionally those mistakes cost you. It is what most teams at this level should be used to, accept we have never had to worry about it before because we had Ryan Shawcross. I find this quite amusing! It is very interesting how the myth about Huth and Shawcross has become deeply entrenched in our psyche. During these magnificent years of defending where were we finishing in the league? How was our team set up to play? Who was continually on the media saying how poor our players are in comparison with other teams in the league? Too many fans were duped into thinking how small our team was. Of course when we survived in what were very poor years for the Premier League people came to believe that it must have been our defenders who had completed a miracle and they were Gods. Huth and Shawcross are basically good team players who put their bodies on the line and have fought valiantly for the cause at Stoke. Both deserve to be thought of highly as Stoke players but if they were so brilliant why haven't some of the top teams come in and tried to tempt them away? Well they did. We had to slap a £20 million price tag on Shawcross in 2011 to stave of interest from others. I'm assuming making him captain at such a young age was also part of our bid to keep him. He was called up to the England squad twice. The major reason he was been overlooked is because of various smears against him and the unfounded notion that he didn't have the necessary technical attributes which are seen as especially important to the 'top clubs'. As soon as Pulis left it became obvious that that argument was mostly bollocks. Last season Shawcross would probably have walked into most of the top teams apart from Chelsea. If you offered him around for a price tag of around £10 million, they would be plenty willing to take him of us. I can't say the same about our other defenders Huth is slightly different because he was never quite as good as Shawcross. Defensively very solid, but not good enough overall for the 'top teams' (I am assuming you mean the top six?). That doesn't make him a bad player. Excluding the 'top six', he was undoubtedly one of the best around.
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Post by numpty40 on Aug 30, 2015 18:52:22 GMT
When asked in the pre-match conference how we were going to defend set pieces, Hughes eluded to the fact, not that he had them training for hours on how to defend them, but how the best plan was not to conceed any set plays in the first place That answer alone tells me that Hughes has concerns about their defending capabilities, but the question is, is he going to try and live with it or rectify the problem. The answer will be revealed within the next couple of days and it is one that is giving me cold sweats. In answer to the OP - yes we do need a centre back ASAP A perfectly reasonable theory from Hughes, if you're not conceding ridiculous free kicks around the edge of the area then there is less sustained pressure on the defence. Maybe it's my imagination but we don't seem to concede as many free kicks and corners as we used to. It's probably no coincident that the worst for conceding cheap free kicks, Sidwell is a very rare starter. For all the complaints about our back four there is very few last ditch tackles and hacks away from danger. Unlike you blackpoolred, I don't think Hughes has concerns regarding our defensive capabilities, he is just completely changing the shape and set up of the team. That means no more no nonsense centre halves at full back conceding free kicks right left and centre and no more hard men centre halves at centre half hacking down players on the edge of our box. Not really sure how I have managed to butcher the original quotes so much
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Post by kustokie on Aug 30, 2015 19:24:03 GMT
Can anyone come up with the name of a player that's as big and strong as Ryan, available for transfer and willing sit on the bench when Ryan comes back. Also, he won't be a back up to Muniesa because has to be about to play the ball out from the back, which is why Wolly was signed but doesn't appear to be working out. . Go on, Bayern, name one!
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Post by silverdollar on Aug 30, 2015 19:24:05 GMT
I find this quite amusing! It is very interesting how the myth about Huth and Shawcross has become deeply entrenched in our psyche. During these magnificent years of defending where were we finishing in the league? How was our team set up to play? Who was continually on the media saying how poor our players are in comparison with other teams in the league? Too many fans were duped into thinking how small our team was. Of course when we survived in what were very poor years for the Premier League people came to believe that it must have been our defenders who had completed a miracle and they were Gods. Huth and Shawcross are basically good team players who put their bodies on the line and have fought valiantly for the cause at Stoke. Both deserve to be thought of highly as Stoke players but if they were so brilliant why haven't some of the top teams come in and tried to tempt them away? Well they did. We had to slap a £20 million price tag on Shawcross in 2011 to stave of interest from others. I'm assuming making him captain at such a young age was also part of our bid to keep him. He was called up to the England squad twice. The major reason he was been overlooked is because of various smears against him and the unfounded notion that he didn't have the necessary technical attributes which are seen as especially important to the 'top clubs'. As soon as Pulis left it became obvious that that argument was mostly bollocks. Last season Shawcross would probably have walked into most of the top teams apart from Chelsea. If you offered him around for a price tag of around £10 million, they would be plenty willing to take him of us. I can't say the same about our other defenders Huth is slightly different because he was never quite as good as Shawcross. Defensively very solid, but not good enough overall for the 'top teams' (I am assuming you mean the top six?). That doesn't make him a bad player. Excluding the 'top six', he was undoubtedly one of the best around. How easily you are fooled by media talk! So Stoke placed a £20 million price tag on Shawcross? I suppose I could do the same for my house! It certainly wouldn't mean it was worth that! If any of the top sides were at all interested they would have made their interest quite clearly. As I said in my initial post Shawcoss deserves great respect for his contribution to Stoke's cause but he does not merit the status some of the Stoke fans give him.
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Post by philm87 on Aug 30, 2015 20:15:26 GMT
Well they did. We had to slap a £20 million price tag on Shawcross in 2011 to stave of interest from others. I'm assuming making him captain at such a young age was also part of our bid to keep him. He was called up to the England squad twice. The major reason he was been overlooked is because of various smears against him and the unfounded notion that he didn't have the necessary technical attributes which are seen as especially important to the 'top clubs'. As soon as Pulis left it became obvious that that argument was mostly bollocks. Last season Shawcross would probably have walked into most of the top teams apart from Chelsea. If you offered him around for a price tag of around £10 million, they would be plenty willing to take him of us. I can't say the same about our other defenders Huth is slightly different because he was never quite as good as Shawcross. Defensively very solid, but not good enough overall for the 'top teams' (I am assuming you mean the top six?). That doesn't make him a bad player. Excluding the 'top six', he was undoubtedly one of the best around. How easily you are fooled by media talk! So Stoke placed a £20 million price tag on Shawcross? I suppose I could do the same for my house! It certainly wouldn't mean it was worth that! If any of the top sides were at all interested they would have made their interest quite clearly. As I said in my initial post Shawcoss deserves great respect for his contribution to Stoke's cause but he does not merit the status some of the Stoke fans give him. Which media talk am I being fooled by? Yes we placed a £20 million valuation on him mid-way through our second season after promotion I think, not long before the Ramsey incident which effectively ended his season. At that time he was among the most highly rated young defenders in the country, pundits were beginning to take serious notice, and Man City were sniffing around. Of course us slapping a price tag on him does not mean that is what he is actually worth but that is not the point. The point is that we were forced to do this precisely in order to deter the bigger clubs from nicking him off us, which proves your original claim is untrue. There are three main reasons none of them have show huge interest in him since then. Firstly, he has never considered leaving us. Most players with his ability would agitate for a move to another club, like Nzonzi and Bego did, but Ryan was perfectly happy here. Secondly, the whole Ramsey affair made him damaged goods. Thirdly, while he is one of the best around at actually defending, his technical ability is very mediocre. The top clubs attach a lot of importance to this. They want guys like Muniesa who can bring the ball out of defence. Shawcross cannot do that, but in terms of old school defensive ability there are genuinely very few better than him. His reading of the game is right up there with the best defenders in the world.
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Post by blackpoolred on Aug 30, 2015 20:38:20 GMT
A perfectly reasonable theory from Hughes, if you're not conceding ridiculous free kicks around the edge of the area then there is less sustained pressure on the defence. Maybe it's my imagination but we don't seem to concede as many free kicks and corners as we used to. It's probably no coincident that the worst for conceding cheap free kicks, Sidwell is a very rare starter. For all the complaints about our back four there is very few last ditch tackles and hacks away from danger. Unlike you blackpoolred, I don't think Hughes has concerns regarding our defensive capabilities, he is just completely changing the shape and set up of the team. That means no more no nonsense centre halves at full back conceding free kicks right left and centre and no more hard men centre halves at centre half hacking down players on the edge of our box. Not really sure how I have managed to butcher the original quotes so much I suppose its all about opinions. I think our current right backs are luxury defenders as in they are great going forward and with the ball at their feet, but mediocre at defending. They would be great if they were in a balanced team where we had 2 commanding centre backs. For me Muni is anything but commanding and Cameron is a true pro, but ultimately a square peg in a round hole and again anything but commanding in that position. For me they are all a good bunch of pros but do not make a balanced back four that can thrive at this level. Add a weak looking midfield that adds little protection in front of them, then I think we could really struggle. Worrying times at the moment as we face our annual defeat against Arsenal next out and will already be playing catchup in the bottom 3 by the time we face Leicester and Bournemouth and we dont seem to have any balance in the team at the moment and a team, for me, that requires 2 commanding centre halves - 1 would be nice and better than nothing
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Post by numpty40 on Aug 30, 2015 20:50:47 GMT
I suppose its all about opinions. I think our current right backs are luxury defenders as in they are great going forward and with the ball at their feet, but mediocre at defending. They would be great if they were in a balanced team where we had 2 commanding centre backs. For me Muni is anything but commanding and Cameron is a true pro, but ultimately a square peg in a round hole and again anything but commanding in that position. For me they are all a good bunch of pros but do not make a balanced back four that can thrive at this level. Add a weak looking midfield that adds little protection in front of them, then I think we could really struggle. Worrying times at the moment as we face our annual defeat against Arsenal next out and will already be playing catchup in the bottom 3 by the time we face Leicester and Bournemouth and we dont seem to have any balance in the team at the moment and a team, for me, that requires 2 commanding centre halves - 1 would be nice and better than nothing To be honest mate I really don't have any concerns following Saturday's performance. I don't expect too much at Arsenal either but after that the current group have had plenty of time to work together and understand what Hughesy wants and expects. Hopefully Bojan will be starting games and the thought of him and Shaqiri starting together is a wonderful prospect. I'm comfortable with our back four and I think MVG is going to really settle in and make a big contribution. The days of needing a big robust back four have disappeared because of the change of football philosophy.
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Post by silverdollar on Aug 30, 2015 21:03:49 GMT
How easily you are fooled by media talk! So Stoke placed a £20 million price tag on Shawcross? I suppose I could do the same for my house! It certainly wouldn't mean it was worth that! If any of the top sides were at all interested they would have made their interest quite clearly. As I said in my initial post Shawcoss deserves great respect for his contribution to Stoke's cause but he does not merit the status some of the Stoke fans give him. Which media talk am I being fooled by? Yes we placed a £20 million valuation on him mid-way through our second season after promotion I think, not long before the Ramsey incident which effectively ended his season. At that time he was among the most highly rated young defenders in the country, pundits were beginning to take serious notice, and Man City were sniffing around. Of course us slapping a price tag on him does not mean that is what he is actually worth but that is not the point. The point is that we were forced to do this precisely in order to deter the bigger clubs from nicking him off us, which proves your original claim is untrue. There are three main reasons none of them have show huge interest in him since then. Firstly, he has never considered leaving us. Most players with his ability would agitate for a move to another club, like Nzonzi and Bego did, but Ryan was perfectly happy here. Secondly, the whole Ramsey affair made him damaged goods. Thirdly, while he is one of the best around at actually defending, his technical ability is very mediocre. The top clubs attach a lot of importance to this. They want guys like Muniesa who can bring the ball out of defence. Shawcross cannot do that, but in terms of old school defensive ability there are genuinely very few better than him. His reading of the game is right up there with the best defenders in the world. Thank you for arguing my whole point so effectively! I rest my case!
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Post by chiswickpotter on Aug 30, 2015 21:24:24 GMT
And you're not if you going to concede 1 a game either. Erm? Played 4, scored 3, conceded 5. That translates to 29-48 over 38 games, or 19 less than we scored last season and 3 more than we conceded. Nor exactly good enough for a top 10 finish. Having said that, sorting the midfield will put less pressure on the defense and create more chances going forward. Looked like we had it figured out, until Laurel and Hardy got sent off. Yes and given 2 of the 4 were against teams tipped for the Top 6 and one involved us playing an hour with 9 men it is pretty clear our defence is on a par with last year -stronger at right back, maybe better in goal and equal at centre back, Mumi balancing out Geoff being weaker than Ryan. Defence is fine we just need to get back to 2 in central midfield and one in front
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Post by malteser68 on Aug 30, 2015 21:41:17 GMT
Not really what cost us the game was it. We were superb in that opening 30 mins, they only had one shot against the run of play. Affelay is not a winger Doesn't even have the pace for it nowadays Keeps drifting infield occupying van ginkel's Space We shall finally see van ginkel without affelay and I bet he'll have a better match than the ones he had so far
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Post by malteser68 on Aug 30, 2015 21:44:04 GMT
Can anyone come up with the name of a player that's as big and strong as Ryan, available for transfer and willing sit on the bench when Ryan comes back. Also, he won't be a back up to Muniesa because has to be about to play the ball out from the back, which is why Wolly was signed but doesn't appear to be working out. . Go on, Bayern, name one! Vidic on loan He is surplus to requirements at inter And if he plays well then he can play alongside ryan Muniesa can play in other positions or the bench - unless there's some unwritten rule that muniesa must play perforce
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Post by jeycov on Aug 30, 2015 21:52:01 GMT
We don't know just how much Ryan will feature this season
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 30, 2015 21:56:19 GMT
Not really what cost us the game was it. We were superb in that opening 30 mins, they only had one shot against the run of play. And it was because Geoff Cameron switched off and let his man go who then scored. Great defending. Like I said we need a new centre back asap.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 30, 2015 22:02:06 GMT
We don't know just how much Ryan will feature this season Which is why we should not have sold Huth, Wolfy is awful who is now apparently 5th choice , Mark Hughes has only himself to blame for the situation we find ourselves in at CB, huge mistake that could cost us dearly this season, Affelay is no winger another mistake, Joselu is to similar to Crouch, VG looks a shadow of the Zonz all in all not looking overly impressive atm, hopefully we can turn it around.
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Post by malteser68 on Aug 30, 2015 22:17:04 GMT
We don't know just how much Ryan will feature this season Not much I suspect Eve. When he recovers we can't expect him to be back at his best immediately
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Post by philm87 on Aug 30, 2015 23:16:11 GMT
Which media talk am I being fooled by? Yes we placed a £20 million valuation on him mid-way through our second season after promotion I think, not long before the Ramsey incident which effectively ended his season. At that time he was among the most highly rated young defenders in the country, pundits were beginning to take serious notice, and Man City were sniffing around. Of course us slapping a price tag on him does not mean that is what he is actually worth but that is not the point. The point is that we were forced to do this precisely in order to deter the bigger clubs from nicking him off us, which proves your original claim is untrue. There are three main reasons none of them have show huge interest in him since then. Firstly, he has never considered leaving us. Most players with his ability would agitate for a move to another club, like Nzonzi and Bego did, but Ryan was perfectly happy here. Secondly, the whole Ramsey affair made him damaged goods. Thirdly, while he is one of the best around at actually defending, his technical ability is very mediocre. The top clubs attach a lot of importance to this. They want guys like Muniesa who can bring the ball out of defence. Shawcross cannot do that, but in terms of old school defensive ability there are genuinely very few better than him. His reading of the game is right up there with the best defenders in the world. Thank you for arguing my whole point so effectively! I rest my case! Your case is just assertion based entirely on your own subjective opinion, reinforced with a couple of exclamation marks. Debating this with you is a bit like punching a ghost.
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Post by pottermouth on Aug 31, 2015 7:22:16 GMT
I think our poor start is down to a lack of a leader at the back. Come on Scholes and co lets see a cb in before 6pm tues.
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Post by MrMagic on Aug 31, 2015 8:16:42 GMT
When you are playing 8 outfield players against 10 is difficult to have "a man"! Unless of course you're a complete football genius and can mark two players at once.
Geoff had a decent game on Saturday as did the rest of the team that managed to avoid getting stupid red cards.
Yes the goal came from a man in his zone but ffs let's look at the bigger picture. That performance across the 9 players was brilliant.
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Post by jeycov on Aug 31, 2015 8:22:58 GMT
Not really what cost us the game was it. We were superb in that opening 30 mins, they only had one shot against the run of play. And it was because Geoff Cameron switched off and let his man go who then scored. Great defending. Like I said we need a new centre back asap. Ryan switches off sometimes, I agree we are missing him. No panic if we don't get a player to cover, as with previous seasons we need to create and convert a higher number of chances
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Post by chiefdelilah on Aug 31, 2015 8:23:58 GMT
And it was because Geoff Cameron switched off and let his man go who then scored. Great defending. Like I said we need a new centre back asap. Ryan switches off sometimes, I agree we are missing him. No panic if we don't get a player to cover, as with previous seasons we need to create and convert a higher number of chances Clean sheet now and again would be nice wouldn't it?
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Aug 31, 2015 11:23:43 GMT
Ryan switches off sometimes, I agree we are missing him. No panic if we don't get a player to cover, as with previous seasons we need to create and convert a higher number of chances Clean sheet now and again would be nice wouldn't it? Big Sam has shown conclusively that clean sheets are the most important at winning points! Which teams have the best defences season after season? Those at the top of the league! Big Sam has showed the most important point getter in any side is the GK not the top goal scorer!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 31, 2015 11:25:30 GMT
We definitely still need one.
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Post by sharonbeech21 on Aug 31, 2015 13:37:43 GMT
Who would you like us to bring in at centre back ? This is where we miss Robert Huth he would have fitted in perfectly in Ryan Shawcross absence . Big mistake letting Robert Huth go
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Post by thehoof on Aug 31, 2015 16:43:42 GMT
Yes, I thought he was great today. Bar the goal right? You know the one where he lost his man and then he scored? Bayern, I think that you are taking this a bit too far. For me a chipped cross to the back post ( no real pace on the cross) which is then met on the edge of the six yard box, you could equally ask why a 6 foot 4 goalkeeper couldn't come and claim the ball or push it away for a corner instead of being rooted to the line. The thing is I actually think that would be pretty harsh on Butland, but no more harsh than you are being on Cameron.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 6:25:24 GMT
Our minimum signing today must. Be a quality central defender
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