|
Post by iloveglennwhelan on Aug 27, 2015 20:39:35 GMT
|
|
|
Post by iloveglennwhelan on Aug 27, 2015 20:41:22 GMT
Why are you obsessed with Glenn, are you Glenn, Glenn? I am not but I wish I was, as I'm sure we all do. Sometimes I imagine what it would be like to be him, but I can only dream.
|
|
|
Post by st4scfc on Aug 27, 2015 20:43:26 GMT
Why are you obsessed with Glenn, are you Glenn, Glenn? I am not but I wish I was, as I'm sure we all do. Sometimes I imagine what it would be like to be him, but I can only dream.
|
|
|
Post by mrcoke on Aug 27, 2015 20:48:15 GMT
One of my favourite rockers
Glen Glenn Everybody's Moving - YouTube
|
|
|
Post by malteser68 on Aug 27, 2015 20:57:01 GMT
One main component for me: talent
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Aug 27, 2015 21:00:40 GMT
I am no expert on this subject, but it does surprise me that Wollsheid is heavily criticised by Oatcake posters not just for his performances but even for his appearance and the way he runs. The guy has played for Germany, he has been scouted, trialled for almost half a season, and signed, but Oatcake posters still abuse him and question MH & Co.'s judgement. I have no problem with constructive criticism and stated myself on here that I'd preferred we had kept Huth and waited to find some one better. However I think some of the abuse he receives is OTT and simply displays ignorance and ill manners. I think you will find that most of the posters who criticise are more critical of the decision to sign him, it is not his fault that we signed him however people are critical because he replaced a player who is way better than him, had proved his fitness and worth at Leicester and was by far a better option considering the club knew Ryan had back issues therefore was likely to be out for an extended period this season, crazy transfer who knows the real reason it would help if we knew the real reasons.
|
|
|
Post by britsabroad on Aug 28, 2015 1:10:33 GMT
In my time I have been privelidged to work with some very good players. I have also had to watch many games looking for good talent. If I was asked what qualities make a player a good player, I would list these things:- Athleticism ( Good body shape and size, pace, stamina and strength) Good Technical Ability ( Good control, manipulates the ball well, passes and heads the ball well) Good Vision Brave Determined Disciplined Confident By the time players make the first team squads of Premier League Clubs you can almost guarantee that the players will have the first six of the list in abundance. Believe me it's a long hard journey. The one quality that does affect performance the most though is the last one. During a season a players performance can fluctuate so much through a loss of confidence. It happens with strikers especially but also with defenders. It is amazing to read through "Stoke Supporters" posts on this site and see what a great job they do of undermining many of Stoke's squad. I am sure that players are advised not to look at forums! Wollshied, Afellay, Van Ginkel, etc need our love not to be constantly labelled as excrement. They do not need to be scorned and ridiculed. Arnautovic is a great example of the way confidence can affect performance. Get behind someone like Wollshied and encourage him and you may see a new player emerge! You, a presumably professional coach/scout, listing athleticism at the top goes a long way to explaining why English clubs routinely get battered in Europe. Why do we continue to think its the most important thing?
|
|
|
Post by meirparkpotter on Aug 28, 2015 4:32:24 GMT
In my time I have been privelidged to work with some very good players. I have also had to watch many games looking for good talent. If I was asked what qualities make a player a good player, I would list these things:- Athleticism ( Good body shape and size, pace, stamina and strength) Good Technical Ability ( Good control, manipulates the ball well, passes and heads the ball well) Good Vision Brave Determined Disciplined Confident By the time players make the first team squads of Premier League Clubs you can almost guarantee that the players will have the first six of the list in abundance. Believe me it's a long hard journey. The one quality that does affect performance the most though is the last one. During a season a players performance can fluctuate so much through a loss of confidence. It happens with strikers especially but also with defenders. It is amazing to read through "Stoke Supporters" posts on this site and see what a great job they do of undermining many of Stoke's squad. I am sure that players are advised not to look at forums! Wollshied, Afellay, Van Ginkel, etc need our love not to be constantly labelled as excrement. They do not need to be scorned and ridiculed. Arnautovic is a great example of the way confidence can affect performance. Get behind someone like Wollshied and encourage him and you may see a new player emerge! I'm surprised you didn't list intelligence... For me, that is what makes the difference. You can have all the athleticism and skill in the world but be outdone by someone who is more clever than you. Intelligent footballers are ones who read the game and know when to act, see passes and through balls that others don't and are able to make those split-second, critical decisions that have nothing to do with physicality or skill and everything to do with the mind. Yes, some players are clever without having the ability to execute. But a clever player matched with that ability, for me, is what sets the top, top players apart
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 8:45:10 GMT
In my time I have been privelidged to work with some very good players. I have also had to watch many games looking for good talent. If I was asked what qualities make a player a good player, I would list these things:- Athleticism ( Good body shape and size, pace, stamina and strength) Good Technical Ability ( Good control, manipulates the ball well, passes and heads the ball well) Good Vision Brave Determined Disciplined Confident By the time players make the first team squads of Premier League Clubs you can almost guarantee that the players will have the first six of the list in abundance. Believe me it's a long hard journey. The one quality that does affect performance the most though is the last one. During a season a players performance can fluctuate so much through a loss of confidence. It happens with strikers especially but also with defenders. It is amazing to read through "Stoke Supporters" posts on this site and see what a great job they do of undermining many of Stoke's squad. I am sure that players are advised not to look at forums! Wollshied, Afellay, Van Ginkel, etc need our love not to be constantly labelled as excrement. They do not need to be scorned and ridiculed. Arnautovic is a great example of the way confidence can affect performance. Get behind someone like Wollshied and encourage him and you may see a new player emerge! You, a presumably professional coach/scout, listing athleticism at the top goes a long way to explaining why English clubs routinely get battered in Europe. Why do we continue to think its the most important thing? I didn't list them in any particular order of merit but I would list athleticism highly because pace, strength, stamina, flexibility , endurance, body shape and size are components of Athleticism that set a player up so well in football competition. Just look at a player like Gareth Bale who has these attributes in spades then compare him with someone like Charlie Adam, who is a talented player. Charlie has to work so much harder and opponents will find it easier to cope one to one with him than Gareth Bale. I have never been a professional coach!
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 8:50:30 GMT
In my time I have been privelidged to work with some very good players. I have also had to watch many games looking for good talent. If I was asked what qualities make a player a good player, I would list these things:- Athleticism ( Good body shape and size, pace, stamina and strength) Good Technical Ability ( Good control, manipulates the ball well, passes and heads the ball well) Good Vision Brave Determined Disciplined Confident By the time players make the first team squads of Premier League Clubs you can almost guarantee that the players will have the first six of the list in abundance. Believe me it's a long hard journey. The one quality that does affect performance the most though is the last one. During a season a players performance can fluctuate so much through a loss of confidence. It happens with strikers especially but also with defenders. It is amazing to read through "Stoke Supporters" posts on this site and see what a great job they do of undermining many of Stoke's squad. I am sure that players are advised not to look at forums! Wollshied, Afellay, Van Ginkel, etc need our love not to be constantly labelled as excrement. They do not need to be scorned and ridiculed. Arnautovic is a great example of the way confidence can affect performance. Get behind someone like Wollshied and encourage him and you may see a new player emerge! I'm surprised you didn't list intelligence... For me, that is what makes the difference. You can have all the athleticism and skill in the world but be outdone by someone who is more clever than you. Intelligent footballers are ones who read the game and know when to act, see passes and through balls that others don't and are able to make those split-second, critical decisions that have nothing to do with physicality or skill and everything to do with the mind. Yes, some players are clever without having the ability to execute. But a clever player matched with that ability, for me, is what sets the top, top players apart I totally agree but I tended to include intelligence under good vision which I define as having a good understanding and picture of the game around you as it happens and being able to choose the most appropriate option quickly to gain tactical advantage.
|
|
|
Post by spongebobflathead on Aug 28, 2015 9:04:22 GMT
It's one of the those threads that makes me speechless !
It should be technical ability , vision , attitude , all the rest is irrelevant , I could train a fuckin lame dionkey to get fit and can make an athlete out of most
It's sadly a very British attitude and goes a long way to explain why we are in the dark ages ! Gareth Barry is the personification of this a lad that will run about a lot a fine athlete , but very very poor technically !
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 18:39:07 GMT
It's one of the those threads that makes me speechless ! It should be technical ability , vision , attitude , all the rest is irrelevant , I could train a fuckin lame dionkey to get fit and can make an athlete out of most It's sadly a very British attitude and goes a long way to explain why we are in the dark ages ! Gareth Barry is the personification of this a lad that will run about a lot a fine athlete , but very very poor technically ! Spongebob can you define ability for me because somewhere along the line I think you will discover that the players with your ability will be the ones with technical ability (Control, Passing, Heading) who can run past another player with the ball(Pace), win the ball in a tackle(Strength) and keep doing that for the whole match!(Stamina)
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 18:45:01 GMT
It's one of the those threads that makes me speechless ! It should be technical ability , vision , attitude , all the rest is irrelevant , I could train a fuckin lame dionkey to get fit and can make an athlete out of most It's sadly a very British attitude and goes a long way to explain why we are in the dark ages ! Gareth Barry is the personification of this a lad that will run about a lot a fine athlete , but very very poor technically ! Spongebob can you define ability for me because somewhere along the line I think you will discover that the players with your ability will be the ones with technical ability (Control, Passing, Heading) who can run past another player with the ball(Pace), win the ball in a tackle(Strength) and keep doing that for the whole match!(Stamina) Oh and by the way! You can make someone fitter but I'm afraid some will always have great muscle power and greater leg cadence. The difference between making a pro footballer at the highest level and at lower pro level is minimal but you will find the majority of the difference is in athletic prowess, discipline(Concentation, Positional Sense and Knowledge)and Determination(Desire to Win and Succeed)
|
|
|
Post by spongebobflathead on Aug 28, 2015 18:56:10 GMT
Spongebob can you define ability for me because somewhere along the line I think you will discover that the players with your ability will be the ones with technical ability (Control, Passing, Heading) who can run past another player with the ball(Pace), win the ball in a tackle(Strength) and keep doing that for the whole match!(Stamina) Oh and by the way! You can make someone fitter but I'm afraid some will always have great muscle power and greater leg cadence. The difference between making a pro footballer at the highest level and at lower pro level is minimal but you will find the majority of the difference is in athletic prowess, discipline(Concentation, Positional Sense and Knowledge)and Determination(Desire to Win and Succeed) For sure attitude and determination go a long way , but how many young lads have been put on the scrap heap because they weren't big or strong enough and proved their mentors wrong ? The list is endless ! Stamina , strength , pace can all be worked on with good / great results , first touch , skill, not so much so ! We should be (like the Spanish / Italians /Brazilians ) be trying to make footballs into athletes instead of athletes into footballers !
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 19:07:21 GMT
Oh and by the way! You can make someone fitter but I'm afraid some will always have great muscle power and greater leg cadence. The difference between making a pro footballer at the highest level and at lower pro level is minimal but you will find the majority of the difference is in athletic prowess, discipline(Concentation, Positional Sense and Knowledge)and Determination(Desire to Win and Succeed) For sure attitude and determination go a long way , but how many young lads have been put on the scrap heap because they weren't big or strong enough and proved their mentors wrong ? The list is endless ! Stamina , strength , pace can all be worked on with good / great results , first touch , skill, not so much so ! We should be (like the Spanish / Italians /Brazilians ) be trying to make footballs into athletes instead of athletes into footballers ! Many mistakes are made at a professional football club when deciding on players to offer scholarships to. I can give you quite a few examples. I think it will always happen but if those discarded young players are looked after nurtured and they maintain their focus and desire they can still succeed. But there are still only four main pro leagues in England and the same number of players have been running out onto the pitch for a long long time. Far more young men aspire to be top players and so there is a tremendous amount of disappointed players and parents out there who inevitably have negative things to say about a club to soften the blow.
|
|
|
Post by spongebobflathead on Aug 28, 2015 19:20:56 GMT
For sure attitude and determination go a long way , but how many young lads have been put on the scrap heap because they weren't big or strong enough and proved their mentors wrong ? The list is endless ! Stamina , strength , pace can all be worked on with good / great results , first touch , skill, not so much so ! We should be (like the Spanish / Italians /Brazilians ) be trying to make footballs into athletes instead of athletes into footballers ! Many mistakes are made at a professional football club when deciding on players to offer scholarships to. I can give you quite a few examples. I think it will always happen but if those discarded young players are looked after nurtured and they maintain their focus and desire they can still succeed. But there are still only four main pro leagues in England and the same number of players have been running out onto the pitch for a long long time. Far more young men aspire to be top players and so there is a tremendous amount of disappointed players and parents out there who inevitably have negative things to say about a club to soften the blow. But the figures speak for themselves , through the eighties / nineties / noughties there is a staggering (and I mean staggering ) amount of top pros that were told that they weren't big or strong enough , As for disgruntled parents , I believe the cream will always rise to the top , if your not good enough your not good enough but pro clubs in this county have got a shocking record of discarding kids for many of the reasons you've listed that "you look for in a good footballer "
|
|
|
Post by viewfromthecrowsnest on Aug 28, 2015 19:30:06 GMT
I'm surprised you didn't list intelligence... For me, that is what makes the difference. You can have all the athleticism and skill in the world but be outdone by someone who is more clever than you. Intelligent footballers are ones who read the game and know when to act, see passes and through balls that others don't and are able to make those split-second, critical decisions that have nothing to do with physicality or skill and everything to do with the mind. Yes, some players are clever without having the ability to execute. But a clever player matched with that ability, for me, is what sets the top, top players apart I totally agree but I tended to include intelligence under good vision which I define as having a good understanding and picture of the game around you as it happens and being able to choose the most appropriate option quickly to gain tactical advantage. Ajax FC use TIPS - Technique, Intelligence, Personality and Speed. Note that athleticism does not simply equate to a single definable element. TECHNIQUE, INTELLIGENCE and PERSONALITY the top three. Intelligence to make correct decisions under extreme pressure, never mind playing in the park for a local team. Personality to keep emotions under check and to be aware of what is occurring around them; and to perform regardless of the occasion. Technique is the ability to use the ball correspondingly to the intelligence. All these things in my opinion are NEVER PRIORITISED by British football scouts. I honestly believe British scouts cannot quantify or at least trust intelligence. In the UK have lots of players who score highly with technique and speed, but without the prerequisite intelligence or personality to match. Very rarely do we see a player scoring highly in all 4 areas.
|
|
|
Post by spongebobflathead on Aug 28, 2015 19:35:19 GMT
I totally agree but I tended to include intelligence under good vision which I define as having a good understanding and picture of the game around you as it happens and being able to choose the most appropriate option quickly to gain tactical advantage. Ajax FC use TIPS - Technique, Intelligence, Personality and Speed. Note that athleticism does not simply equate to a single definable element. TECHNIQUE, INTELLIGENCE and PERSONALITY the top three. Intelligence to make correct decisions under extreme pressure, never mind playing in the park for a local team. Personality to keep emotions under check and to be aware of what is occurring around them; and to perform regardless of the occasion. Technique is the ability to use the ball correspondingly to the intelligence. All these things in my opinion are NEVER PRIORITISED by British football scouts. I honestly believe British scouts cannot quantify or at least trust intelligence. In the UK have lots of players who score highly with technique and speed, but without the prerequisite intelligence or personality to match. Very rarely do we see a player scoring highly in all 4 areas. Top post !
|
|
|
Post by bertiebigguns on Aug 28, 2015 19:38:21 GMT
Consistency.
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 20:31:23 GMT
Many mistakes are made at a professional football club when deciding on players to offer scholarships to. I can give you quite a few examples. I think it will always happen but if those discarded young players are looked after nurtured and they maintain their focus and desire they can still succeed. But there are still only four main pro leagues in England and the same number of players have been running out onto the pitch for a long long time. Far more young men aspire to be top players and so there is a tremendous amount of disappointed players and parents out there who inevitably have negative things to say about a club to soften the blow. But the figures speak for themselves , through the eighties / nineties / noughties there is a staggering (and I mean staggering ) amount of top pros that were told that they weren't big or strong enough , As for disgruntled parents , I believe the cream will always rise to the top , if your not good enough your not good enough but pro clubs in this county have got a shocking record of discarding kids for many of the reasons you've listed that "you look for in a good footballer " I would truly like to see the facts and figures that back up your assertions. It would have been an interesting piece of research! You must remember that many people get jobs in pro clubs because they were good football pros and there is a job for the boys attitude. Some of these people are not very good with young players and too many of them have no experience of recognising young talent. So the consequences are inevitable.
|
|
|
Post by silverdollar on Aug 28, 2015 20:40:28 GMT
I totally agree but I tended to include intelligence under good vision which I define as having a good understanding and picture of the game around you as it happens and being able to choose the most appropriate option quickly to gain tactical advantage. Ajax FC use TIPS - Technique, Intelligence, Personality and Speed. Note that athleticism does not simply equate to a single definable element. TECHNIQUE, INTELLIGENCE and PERSONALITY the top three. Intelligence to make correct decisions under extreme pressure, never mind playing in the park for a local team. Personality to keep emotions under check and to be aware of what is occurring around them; and to perform regardless of the occasion. Technique is the ability to use the ball correspondingly to the intelligence. All these things in my opinion are NEVER PRIORITISED by British football scouts. I honestly believe British scouts cannot quantify or at least trust intelligence. In the UK have lots of players who score highly with technique and speed, but without the prerequisite intelligence or personality to match. Very rarely do we see a player scoring highly in all 4 areas. When scouting young talent 7 to 15 more often than not a scout attends a game and at that match there are usually scouts from other clubs. A scout more often than not will not be privy to a players personality other than that portrayed on the pitch and often decisions are made quickly because the player will be assessed during a trial at the club. I do believe our set ups are way behind the Dutch and other countries but as you say cream more often than not rises to the top.
|
|
|
Post by spongebobflathead on Aug 28, 2015 21:36:01 GMT
|
|
|
Post by britsabroad on Aug 29, 2015 0:58:03 GMT
You, a presumably professional coach/scout, listing athleticism at the top goes a long way to explaining why English clubs routinely get battered in Europe. Why do we continue to think its the most important thing? I didn't list them in any particular order of merit but I would list athleticism highly because pace, strength, stamina, flexibility , endurance, body shape and size are components of Athleticism that set a player up so well in football competition. Just look at a player like Gareth Bale who has these attributes in spades then compare him with someone like Charlie Adam, who is a talented player. Charlie has to work so much harder and opponents will find it easier to cope one to one with him than Gareth Bale. I have never been a professional coach! No, but it was the one that came to your mind first. Bale was going nowhere for a long time with just his power and pace, he had to learn a new dimension to his game. Then you look at the Latin players.... Xavi, Iniesta, Messi etc. They are all weak physically, but they would have all been/would still be the best player in the Premier League if they came.
|
|
|
Post by JoeinOz on Aug 29, 2015 1:09:12 GMT
The greatest players ever all have one thing in common. They practiced like mad. George Best, despite common perception, was one of vew players who used to stay behind regularly to do extra training.
Playing isn't practice. Proper practice is striving to improve and taking the time to do so. Practice and application is what separated the shit from everyone else for so long. Their players were incredibly focused. Giggs and Scholes had that thing where they improve at the age of 32-33. It can be laborious but to sroll around stadiums parading trophies that's how you have to be.
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Aug 29, 2015 1:45:45 GMT
i'd add fitness to that list, and that can fluctuate a lot. If one is tired athleticism and concentration suffer. Staying physically fit and in tip top shape is a constant battle. And it gets harder to do the older you get. Fitness comes under the umbrella of Athleticism! Not so sure about that. Johan Cruyff (sp?) was a great athlete, despite being a chain smoker and rarely practiced.
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Aug 29, 2015 1:52:25 GMT
I guess times have changed and not necssarily for the better. I remember Roy Vernon used to run onto the pitch and flick his fag end into the paddock. The "good old days".
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Aug 29, 2015 2:02:09 GMT
The greatest players ever all have one thing in common. They practiced like mad. George Best, despite common perception, was one of vew players who used to stay behind regularly to do extra training. Playing isn't practice. Proper practice is striving to improve and taking the time to do so. Practice and application is what separated the shit from everyone else for so long. Their players were incredibly focused. Giggs and Scholes had that thing where they improve at the age of 32-33. It can be laborious but to sroll around stadiums parading trophies that's how you have to be. Not universally true. As I said above Johan Cruyff never practiced hard because he never saw the point. He was naurally gifted. The same is true of Bo Jackson who is not well known outside the US, but is one of the greatest atheletes of all time and one of the few players to play at the very top level in football (the grid-iron type) and baseball. His career was cut short when he dislocated his hip and ruptured blood vessels in the joint. He came back to play baseball for the Kansas City Royals with an artificial hip but was never quite the same. His physique was (probably still is) magnificent but he never lifted a weight in his life and never saw the point of practicing.
|
|
|
Post by prestige on Aug 29, 2015 2:06:30 GMT
this has got to be a wind-up!
"SilverDollar in yet another dont call players shit fiasco on yet another thread"
When will you learn that this board is going to have diverse opinons, and us folk in Stoke don't mince our words, its probably not meant or used as aggresively as it sounds on your head SilverDollar.
|
|
|
Post by JoeinOz on Aug 29, 2015 2:07:46 GMT
The greatest players ever all have one thing in common. They practiced like mad. George Best, despite common perception, was one of vew players who used to stay behind regularly to do extra training. Playing isn't practice. Proper practice is striving to improve and taking the time to do so. Practice and application is what separated the shit from everyone else for so long. Their players were incredibly focused. Giggs and Scholes had that thing where they improve at the age of 32-33. It can be laborious but to sroll around stadiums parading trophies that's how you have to be. Not universally true. As I said above Johan Cruyff never practiced hard because he never saw the point. He was naurally gifted. The same is true of Bo Jackson who is not well known outside the US, but is one of the greatest atheletes of all time and one of the few players to play at the very top level in football (the grid-iron type) and baseball. His career was cut short when he dislocated his hip and ruptured blood vessels in the joint. He came back to play baseball for the Kansas City Royals with an artificial hip but was never quite the same. His physique was (probably still is) magnificent but he never lifted a weight in his life and never saw the point of practicing. Cruyff was shit.
|
|
|
Post by kustokie on Aug 29, 2015 2:22:38 GMT
Not universally true. As I said above Johan Cruyff never practiced hard because he never saw the point. He was naurally gifted. The same is true of Bo Jackson who is not well known outside the US, but is one of the greatest atheletes of all time and one of the few players to play at the very top level in football (the grid-iron type) and baseball. His career was cut short when he dislocated his hip and ruptured blood vessels in the joint. He came back to play baseball for the Kansas City Royals with an artificial hip but was never quite the same. His physique was (probably still is) magnificent but he never lifted a weight in his life and never saw the point of practicing. Cruyff was shit. Excuse me. I stand corrected! Maybe Cruyff wasn't that great (always looked pretty good when I saw him). Anyway Bo Jackson definitely was great, arguably the greatest athelete of all time. I saw him break a baseball bat over his head like it was a twig when he struck out and I'm certain he never practiced much.
|
|