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Post by trickydicky73 on May 4, 2015 4:48:29 GMT
For once I agree with Geoff!
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Post by sufolkstokie on May 4, 2015 7:04:59 GMT
Look this thread topic bosky is not an emotional issue, it's a simple economic and financial one. The top six PL clubs in the league tonight have the highest wage bills, Spurs who are 6th in the league and 6th in the wage bill league have a wage bill that is £22m higher than the 7th club in the wage league who are Newcastle, the first thing therefore to recognise is that the gap between the top six and the rest is huge. Southampton who are 7th in the League have a wage bill which is £45m less than Spurs and yet are only one point behind them, that is clearly punching above your weight. Newcastle United have a wage bill that is £23m more than Southampton and they are 15th and 22 points behind Southampton, that is clearly a major under performance. According to the latest figures I have seen Stoke have a wage bill that places them around 14th in the wage league and they are in 10th position in the league, that for me is punching above your weight. Of course it's correct that clubs with lower wage bills may outperform clubs on higher wage bills for a limited period of time until those clubs who pay higher wages get their act together and then the status quo should apply again. iF Stoke are able to achieve a top eight position on a wage bill that is 14th then that will not only be punching above your weight it would be outstanding achievement, but my view is that the present financial structure of the PL means it would be impossible to maintain that unless the wage bill was allowed to increase substantially. Whilst I would agree we are probably punching above our weight, especially with our injury list, your equation assume a straight line of salary = success The top 4 you could well argue this is the case, because they can afford to make some mistakes and brush them under the carpet given their strength in depth However, even in the top 4, given how 'easy' Chelsea have won it, the manger effect already starts to show its head Now - take Southampton. They have a very good manager but also one thing that reduces their relevance on a straight line salary equation; a fabulous academy which brings player after player through on low wages to the first team Villa - partly lack of investment, but mainly very very poor managers that refused to play the Villa way (which is attacking football) as Sherwood has proven Everton - jury out for me re the manager, but it shows they were spread too thin because of Europa Now to the North East - one could argue they have to pay more because of location (nowt against the area as I love Northumberland). But what it also shows is again poor managers and one none engaging owner and perhaps a culture that does not work. So on this equation I fail to see how they should both be above us given one has gone down since we have been in the league and the other I believe has never finished above us. Mr Pardew has proven a poisonous culture and a non engaging chairman shows the burden despite a large wage bill (Newcastle), compared to a much smaller wage bill, but a supportive culture and chairman (Palace). The final flaw in the equation is money for a player equates to a similar performance from that player. This as many teams have shown simply does not happen and teams who have bet on one or two key players have shown, get it wrong and you go down
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Post by geoff321 on May 4, 2015 8:48:36 GMT
For me ss the term punching above your weight has nothing to do with academies, who the manager is, the transfer policy etc it is simply about a clubs league position in relation to their financial clout. I have said in my last post that it is possible for clubs with less financial clout to outperform clubs with more for a limited period of time based on that club being run efficiently.
The speculative forecasts for the 2014/15 wage bill puts Southampton 15th and they are 7th in the league, the forecast for Newcastle puts them 7th in the wage bill league and they are 15th in the league. Sunderland are 9th in the wage bill league and 18th in the league. Stoke are forecast to be 14th in the wage bill league and we are 10th in the league.
If clubs who have more money to spend on players wages are under performing then they are punching below their weight, if clubs who have less money to spend on wages are over performing then they are punching above their weight, I can't see any other way of interpreting the OP's question.
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Post by sufolkstokie on May 4, 2015 8:54:19 GMT
For me the ss the term punching above your weight has nothing to do with academies, who the manager is, the transfer policy etc it is simply about a clubs league position in relation to their financial clout. I have said in my last post that it is possible for clubs with less financial clout to outperform clubs with more for a limited period of time based on that club being run efficiently. The speculative forecasts for the 2014/15 wage bill puts Southampton 15th and they are 7th in the league, the forecast for Newcastle puts them 7th in the wage bill league and they are 15th in the league. Sunderland are 9th in the wage bill league and 18th in the league. Stoke are forecast to be 14th in the wage bill league and we are 10th in the league. If clubs who have more money to spend on players wages are under performing then they are punching below their weight, if clubs who have less money to spend on wages are over performing then they are punching above their weight, I can't see any other way of interpreting the OP's question. We will have to agree to disagree as I do not see it as a straight line equation. By taking out the influence of a manager and spending lots on poor players are two huge factors for me
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Post by fortressbritannia on May 4, 2015 11:58:20 GMT
There's no way we're punching above our weight.
We are now in our 7th consecutive season in the PL and we're about to go into our 8th. During that time we've never really been in a relegation scrap and we've always finished comfortably midtable, as well as securing a top 10 finish (with another on the cards). We should be looking at being a regular top 10 team now.
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 4, 2015 12:11:54 GMT
For the squad we have I think we're about right being 8th-11th. For me Id group the PL as follows
*The elite* Chelsea Man U Man C Arsenal
*The also rans* Liverpool Spurs Everton Southampton
*Mid table teams* Swansea Stoke West Ham Villa Newcastle
*Lower mid table teams* WBA Sunderland Palace Hull
*Strugglers* Burnley QPR Leicester
I think we're about right. Not our fault others are badly managed under achievers.
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Post by geoff321 on May 4, 2015 12:14:48 GMT
In 2013/14 we were 16th in terms of wage bill and finished 9th, in any language that is punching above our weight. This season the forecast wage bill is putting us 14th and we are currently 10th in the league and that is also punching above our weight. With respect fortress your second paragraph has nothing to do with the question posed, we may well be a top ten side from now on but as yet we are not in terms of wage bill. If our wage bill was the same as Newcastle United's is forecast to be at £78.3m and we finished 10th then you could argue we were not punching above our weight and you would be correct.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 12:19:42 GMT
Spending fuck all and doing well is actually a bit of a hindrance, spending fuck all and struggling exposes the need to spend, bit like the old days when Councils would always spend loads on roads and infrastructure before their financial year ran out, as next yrs budget was based on last yrs spend.
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Post by GoBoks on May 4, 2015 16:08:17 GMT
We have been participating in the football league for 117 seasons (excluding the 3 game "season" at the start of the war. During this time, our beloved Stoke has finished tenth or higher in the top division a grand total of 15 times. Of these, 6 have been after 1945. Punching above our weight? Judge for yourself.
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Post by Squeekster on May 4, 2015 19:24:16 GMT
We have been participating in the football league for 117 seasons (excluding the 3 game "season" at the start of the war. During this time, our beloved Stoke has finished tenth or higher in the top division a grand total of 15 times. Of these, 6 have been after 1945. Punching above our weight? Judge for yourself. I agree just look at Preston,Bolton and Blackpool who have won most domestic things going. Where are they now? 20 years ago i was 13 stone and had a full head of hair not any more!
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