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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on May 2, 2015 21:47:06 GMT
We're 10th FFS.
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Post by kjpt140v on May 2, 2015 21:48:38 GMT
How was it never on the cards when we were one game away from going 8th? not like we were miles behind a Swansea side we beat at home. 7th was never on the cards but 8 th was and still isn't impossible but very unlikely What we need to understand is that we are on a mission, Hughes is always working for the future. There is no point in judging the team on one or two games look at the bigger picture. This team has been ripped apart by injuries this season but still shown on plenty of occassions that we can compete with the best and we can play very good football. We're, I believe, in the embryonic stages, Mike Hughes is putting together a great team, who would ever have thought we'd have had the talent of Bojan, Moses Assaidi etc. playing for us. Look at the talent he is looking to bring to the club, stop whingeing, step back and look how much we've built upon Pulis' legacy and the bright future we have with Hughes at the helm.
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Post by geoff321 on May 2, 2015 22:05:37 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment.
One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon.
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Post by kjpt140v on May 2, 2015 22:09:37 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment. One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. FFS what utter shite. Pessimistic crap.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 22:16:47 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment. One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Seriously why are you even a football fan if that's your attitude? Go and find another hobby. And whilst you're at it stop pretending you're a Stoke fan getting pretty fucking tedious now........
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Post by taytotheimpailer on May 2, 2015 22:45:07 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment. One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Seriously why are you even a football fan if that's your attitude? Go and find another hobby. And whilst you're at it stop pretending you're a Stoke fan getting pretty fucking tedious now........ Trophies won have no relevance to where we are today. Villa have won the FA Cup 7 or 8 times and been European champions but doesn't mean they aren't a relegation candidate the last few seasons. Fact is we are a better team than them and until that changes we are as good as where we finish. By your logic if past glories are to be taken into it then Chelsea are way above their apparent weight. It really doesn't matter. We are where we are and building on it it seems. No team should be in a particular division because of past glories or apparent size of the club.
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Post by geoff321 on May 2, 2015 22:58:43 GMT
I agree tay that past glories guarantee nothing but size of a club is a different matter. The history of a club though show the possible reasons why success has been limited and some of those things we cannot alter. In the case of Stoke the factors against us are:
Location. Wage bill. Top players not convinced they could win things here. Image. Attendances.
These are just a few of the reasons and it's unlikely we can change most of these, medium sized PL clubs can all enjoy their moments in the sun but more than ever in the game today money is the thing that separates us from the elite few. I am not however denying that we have made huge progress in the last few years and under Mark Hughes that should at least be maintained.
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Post by taytotheimpailer on May 2, 2015 23:11:43 GMT
I agree tay that past glories guarantee nothing but size of a club is a different matter. The history of a club though show the possible reasons why success has been limited and some of those things we cannot alter. In the case of Stoke the factors against us are: Location. Wage bill. Top players not convinced they could win things here. Image. Attendances. These are just a few of the reasons and it's unlikely we can change most of these, medium sized PL clubs can all enjoy their moments in the sun but more than ever in the game today money is the thing that separates us from the elite few. I am not however denying that we have made huge progress in the last few years and under Mark Hughes that should at least be maintained. Not really sure about location too much as Cheshire certainly an attraction for some players. If Middlesboro can attract a classy Brazilian player twice then there's hope. :-) For sure London is far more attractive to a player and something not just us but some of the much bigger clubs like Liverpool found recently with Sanchez as an example. As far as attendances go then we are probably able to compete with the likes of Villa in the Prem in our current situation perhaps, a far better supported club although when it comes to say Everton then think wages still talk rather than crowd numbers there. I think we are quickly losing the image thing, was something Cameron mentioned when he was signing but do see your point. I do think though there are a lot of good players who now want to come the Prem who aren't top of the class level who we can now challenge for when previously we couldn't. We have seen players like Gaston Ramirez come to a mid table club, he hasn't set the world on fire but for me was a big coup at the time as a top S American star and the kind of player we could maybe grab if we wanted. The fact that someone like Sergi Roberto isn't out of the question says a lot.
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Post by silverdollar on May 3, 2015 15:01:38 GMT
top eight finish never on the cards .i know mh inherited most of the current squad and has tried to turn the long ball game into playing on the floor football but half the the current squad haven't the technical ability to adapt to that type of game or are reaching senior years (past there best) . the players on the fringe need to be better quality pushing for a first team places why crouch got a two year extension on his contract is beyond believe . in the system mark hughes wants he will be a bit part player at most. top eight sides don't give points away to struggling sides like we do . home or away how come southampton and swansea both new ish to the premier league finish above us without a major overhaul in the close season we are in trouble Stupid Comment! All teams start at season start on 0pts and you achieve your status through skill and honest endeavour! I don't want players or fans with my club without ambition! After 35 games all teams merit the position they are in! We are now in tenth but still can finish higher! When they look back they will be very disappointed with their final total after some of the very silly home losses that they experienced. This does tell me though that we were certainly capable of finishing even higher than eighth! What is wrong with over achieving? You don't publicly state that you are a Stoke fan do you? I think you were in your Nirvana when you had our previous negative manager at the helm! This team is well capable of getting more points that they did last season and after the terrible injuries we have endured I say that all Stoke players should be congratulated ! No team or its fans should rest on its laurels. We have the finance and some talented skilful players to seriously target European football next season. "without a major overhaul in the close season we are in trouble" What absolute rubbish!
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 3, 2015 15:14:22 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment. One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. We're middle of the table with a "middle of the table squad" how is that punching above our weight?
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Post by hartzchoco on May 3, 2015 15:38:47 GMT
The sad part is we gave up. We didn't even try yesterday. That's the biggest disappointment for me. I never thought our boys would mail it in, just so they could grab a paycheck. We couldn't have cared less if we won yesterday. No effort at al, zero. Depressing, really. Never thought I'd see it.
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Post by geoff321 on May 3, 2015 15:45:32 GMT
I tend to think of mid table as anywhere between 11th/15th, I understand that is not statistically accurate but that's how I see it. On the basis we finished 9th last year and could well do the same this season, then in my view we are punching above our weight. I think boskam that Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland and Villa are currently under performing and should in reality be ahead of us, so I see our true position based on size etc as somewhere around 14th.
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Post by jeycov on May 3, 2015 15:50:27 GMT
The sad part is we gave up. We didn't even try yesterday. That's the biggest disappointment for me. I never thought our boys would mail it in, just so they could grab a paycheck. We couldn't have cared less if we won yesterday. No effort at al, zero. Depressing, really. Never thought I'd see it. A bit harsh, I was not at the game so have only viewed the extended highlights and listened to post match reactions We looked tired and it was a frustrating game, little anticipation when playing the ball, the defence were very hesitant. Swansea had more control and deserved their win imo After our FA Cup achievements, expectations were very high and that proved to be detrimental to our final few weeks of that season. We may finish in 11th, there's still plenty to play for, 50 points for a start, we need the 12th man to add to our performances for the remaining 3 games. As for punching above our weight, I think we are in the mix 8th - 12th and that is our current level
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Post by djduncanjames on May 3, 2015 15:56:02 GMT
that makes no sense at all man. You finish in the league based on points and merit.
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Post by Squeekster on May 3, 2015 16:00:51 GMT
I tend to think of mid table as anywhere between 11th/15th, I understand that is not statistically accurate but that's how I see it. On the basis we finished 9th last year and could well do the same this season, then in my view we are punching above our weight. I think boskam that Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland and Villa are currently under performing and should in reality be ahead of us, so I see our true position based on size etc as somewhere around 14th. Tell me what your on i fancy some.
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Post by basingstokie on May 3, 2015 16:06:12 GMT
We are a very good team, maybe punching slightly above our weight, but better that than Man Utd - considerably less than the sum of their (expensively assembled) parts.
Imo the vast majority of the squad have coped well with the change of style. I can't believe that as quality footballers they were happy just lumping it down the channels anyway, however effective that was.
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Post by sufolkstokie on May 3, 2015 16:06:20 GMT
The sad part is we gave up. We didn't even try yesterday. That's the biggest disappointment for me. I never thought our boys would mail it in, just so they could grab a paycheck. We couldn't have cared less if we won yesterday. No effort at al, zero. Depressing, really. Never thought I'd see it. Seen it a few times fella, both under the capped one and Sparky But second half yesterday was very poor granted
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Post by kustokie on May 3, 2015 16:33:07 GMT
I tend to think of mid table as anywhere between 11th/15th, I understand that is not statistically accurate but that's how I see it. On the basis we finished 9th last year and could well do the same this season, then in my view we are punching above our weight. I think boskam that Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland and Villa are currently under performing and should in reality be ahead of us, so I see our true position based on size etc as somewhere around 14th. Nonsence. At this stage of the season you deserve to be where you are. The four teams you mention are underperforming, but so are we.
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Post by Squeekster on May 3, 2015 16:36:21 GMT
I tend to think of mid table as anywhere between 11th/15th, I understand that is not statistically accurate but that's how I see it. On the basis we finished 9th last year and could well do the same this season, then in my view we are punching above our weight. I think boskam that Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland and Villa are currently under performing and should in reality be ahead of us, so I see our true position based on size etc as somewhere around 14th. Nonsence. At this stage of the season you deserve to be where you are. The four teams you mention are underperforming, but so are we. Sunderland for one have been bumming around relegation for the past few seasons so how are they under performing?
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Post by djduncanjames on May 3, 2015 16:48:52 GMT
Nonsence. At this stage of the season you deserve to be where you are. The four teams you mention are underperforming, but so are we. Sunderland for one have been bumming around relegation for the past few seasons so how are they under performing? And Newcastle have been relegated since we have been up as well. His post makes no sense at all. If every team has a predetermined place in the entire football league then what is the point of even playing the game, might as well just jack it in completely then.
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Post by geoff321 on May 3, 2015 16:53:05 GMT
The four clubs I've mentioned are potentially serious contenders for a top eight finish if they are run correctly. One of the main reasons that Stoke are out performing them is that Peter Coates has made the correct decisions on manager appointments for the last 8/9 years, those clubs haven't or at least they have chopped and changed far too much.
A club punching above its weight is one that is higher than it should be based on a number of financial factors such as wage bill etc. We would all agree that whereas Bournemouth deserve to be top of the Championship they are punching well above their weight in a league that contains clubs like Bolton, Birmingham, Derby, Leeds, Norwich, Forest, Cardiff, Watford, Sheffield Wednesday and Wolves.
Saying that Stoke are punching above their weight is a compliment to the Chairman, Manager and players and is not in anyway a put down.
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Post by Squeekster on May 3, 2015 17:00:33 GMT
The four clubs I've mentioned are potentially serious contenders for a top eight finish if they are run correctly. One of the main reasons that Stoke are out performing them is that Peter Coates has made the correct decisions on manager appointments for the last 8/9 years, those clubs haven't or at least they have chopped and changed far too much. A club punching above its weight is one that is higher than it should be based on a number of financial factors such as wage bill etc. We would all agree that whereas Bournemouth deserve to be top of the Championship they are punching well above their weight in a league that contains clubs like Bolton, Birmingham, Derby, Leeds, Norwich, Forest, Cardiff, Watford, Sheffield Wednesday and Wolves. Saying that Stoke are punching above their weight is a compliment to the Chairman, Manager and players and is not in anyway a put down. Albeit the last season we have invested heavily in our squad,not necessarily with the desired out but none the less we have. The four clubs you mention have all fallen way down the pecking order over the past 3 or 4 seasons with the exception of Newcastle who's decline is much recent but i still say they are not under performing and we are not over performing.
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Post by hartzchoco on May 3, 2015 17:15:09 GMT
The sad part is we gave up. We didn't even try yesterday. That's the biggest disappointment for me. I never thought our boys would mail it in, just so they could grab a paycheck. We couldn't have cared less if we won yesterday. No effort at al, zero. Depressing, really. Never thought I'd see it. A bit harsh, I was not at the game so have only viewed the extended highlights and listened to post match reactions We looked tired and it was a frustrating game, little anticipation when playing the ball, the defence were very hesitant. Swansea had more control and deserved their win imo After our FA Cup achievements, expectations were very high and that proved to be detrimental to our final few weeks of that season. We may finish in 11th, there's still plenty to play for, 50 points for a start, we need the 12th man to add to our performances for the remaining 3 games. As for punching above our weight, I think we are in the mix 8th - 12th and that is our current level I don't see it as harsh, not in the least. I watched every second of the match (two hours I will never get back), and I assure you I saw no effort or desire on anyone's part. Much of last week was spent by many of us on here discussing the importance of this game. The guys cashing the big checks surely didn't view it the same way. Another instance of the fans caring more than the wealthy players. I found it pathetic and insulting, actually. I agree that we still have plenty to play for, but someone better tell that to the squad. These boys are already on holiday. I'm going to be hard pressed to give a shit, however, when the people I'm rooting for certainly don't.
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Post by geoff321 on May 3, 2015 17:18:48 GMT
Based on the wage bill alone, the clubs that are punching above their weight are Southampton, Swansea, Stoke and West Ham. The clubs that are under performing in relation to wage bill are Newcastle, QPR, Sunderland, Villa and to a lesser extent Everton. If you pay higher wages you should attract better players,clearly with some of these clubs the link has broken down.
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Post by Squeekster on May 3, 2015 17:26:02 GMT
Based on the wage bill alone, the clubs that are punching above their weight are Southampton, Swansea, Stoke and West Ham. The clubs that are under performing in relation to wage bill are Newcastle, QPR, Sunderland, Villa and to a lesser extent Everton. If you pay higher wages you should attract better players,clearly with some of these clubs the link has broken down. Wage bill is not a defining factor though is it? You could go out and spend big money on fee's and wages and the players be failures! Just because you pay a big fee and wage doesn't mean that you have a divine right to be top end finishers!
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 3, 2015 18:55:03 GMT
I tend to think of mid table as anywhere between 11th/15th, I understand that is not statistically accurate but that's how I see it. On the basis we finished 9th last year and could well do the same this season, then in my view we are punching above our weight. I think boskam that Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland and Villa are currently under performing and should in reality be ahead of us, so I see our true position based on size etc as somewhere around 14th. Personally I don't, Villa have a couple of good players but other than that are quite lacking, same with Newcastle really, I do agree about Everton though (size of club means jack shit in regards to where a club should be), oh and Sunderland, are you serious ? Personally I think we are about were we should be, we've got a strong group and with a couple of additions could keep these top 10 finishes a regular occurrence for a few years to come.
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Post by ayem on May 3, 2015 19:25:08 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment. One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. I disagree a bit. The longer we stay, the greater the profit and the management knows how to spend. Hughes has brought in good players, but also marketable players. In places like the US where English football is on the rise, kit sales could rise exponentially. Small money, but still money. Also the team looks primed to have more top international players because that is where smart spending can occur.
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Post by geoff321 on May 3, 2015 19:30:11 GMT
Look this thread topic bosky is not an emotional issue, it's a simple economic and financial one. The top six PL clubs in the league tonight have the highest wage bills, Spurs who are 6th in the league and 6th in the wage bill league have a wage bill that is £22m higher than the 7th club in the wage league who are Newcastle, the first thing therefore to recognise is that the gap between the top six and the rest is huge.
Southampton who are 7th in the League have a wage bill which is £45m less than Spurs and yet are only one point behind them, that is clearly punching above your weight. Newcastle United have a wage bill that is £23m more than Southampton and they are 15th and 22 points behind Southampton, that is clearly a major under performance.
According to the latest figures I have seen Stoke have a wage bill that places them around 14th in the wage league and they are in 10th position in the league, that for me is punching above your weight.
Of course it's correct that clubs with lower wage bills may outperform clubs on higher wage bills for a limited period of time until those clubs who pay higher wages get their act together and then the status quo should apply again.
iF Stoke are able to achieve a top eight position on a wage bill that is 14th then that will not only be punching above your weight it would be outstanding achievement, but my view is that the present financial structure of the PL means it would be impossible to maintain that unless the wage bill was allowed to increase substantially.
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Post by taytotheimpailer on May 3, 2015 20:09:48 GMT
There is no doubt the achievements of the last 7/8 years have been tremendous, despite that some on here have tried to undermine just what progress has been made. The brutal reality is though that we have won one trophy in 150 years, I feel we have a middle of the table squad who are punching above their weight mainly down to top class management. My fear is that managers don't tend to stay at PL clubs very long, for one reason or another and the fortunes of a club can quickly change, therefore even if we achieve a top eight finish in the next few years the squad is not strong enough without significant further investment. One of the most dangerous things we can do is talk up the expectation level, remember we have few international players who currently play for a top country and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. I disagree a bit. The longer we stay, the greater the profit and the management knows how to spend. Hughes has brought in good players, but also marketable players. In places like the US where English football is on the rise, kit sales could rise exponentially. Small money, but still money. Also the team looks primed to have more top international players because that is where smart spending can occur. That's well said and well written. We are certainly on the rise so this punching above our weight doesn't wash and we are playing things very cute and bettering ourselves. Similar to Southampton and Swans we are now considered a decent Prem side who other teams respect and don't see us in a relegation battle before a ball is kicked at the start of the season. We are established, not punching above any imaginary weight.
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Post by Squeekster on May 3, 2015 22:44:59 GMT
Look this thread topic bosky is not an emotional issue, it's a simple economic and financial one. The top six PL clubs in the league tonight have the highest wage bills, Spurs who are 6th in the league and 6th in the wage bill league have a wage bill that is £22m higher than the 7th club in the wage league who are Newcastle, the first thing therefore to recognise is that the gap between the top six and the rest is huge. Southampton who are 7th in the League have a wage bill which is £45m less than Spurs and yet are only one point behind them, that is clearly punching above your weight. Newcastle United have a wage bill that is £23m more than Southampton and they are 15th and 22 points behind Southampton, that is clearly a major under performance. According to the latest figures I have seen Stoke have a wage bill that places them around 14th in the wage league and they are in 10th position in the league, that for me is punching above your weight. Of course it's correct that clubs with lower wage bills may outperform clubs on higher wage bills for a limited period of time until those clubs who pay higher wages get their act together and then the status quo should apply again. iF Stoke are able to achieve a top eight position on a wage bill that is 14th then that will not only be punching above your weight it would be outstanding achievement, but my view is that the present financial structure of the PL means it would be impossible to maintain that unless the wage bill was allowed to increase substantially. Which proves the point Geoff wage bills mean fuck all!
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