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Post by slicko on Mar 23, 2015 12:32:13 GMT
The title says it all really.
How much nonsense do all clubs and supporters have to tolerate and debate before intervention?
I thought rugby referee Nigel Owens maintained full control of the fiesty England vs France game Saturday. Often having a quick glance at video to support big decisions he was unsighted on.
Yes it slows the game down marginally but Speroni was doing a good job of that and to be fair, I'd rather see due diligence than incompetence.
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Post by petemac on Mar 23, 2015 12:48:00 GMT
Yes I thought he performed brilliantly. There was an occasion when one of the England players was saying something to the ref and the ref just said "Christopher!!" Like an old school headmaster and the player immediately turned and walked away. It does help that the referees have all that tech to help them out.
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Post by thestatusquo on Mar 23, 2015 12:50:11 GMT
After a truly awful weekend video technology must now be used.
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Post by bettyswallox on Mar 23, 2015 13:03:32 GMT
Yes I thought he performed brilliantly. There was an occasion when one of the England players was saying something to the ref and the ref just said "Christopher!!" Like an old school headmaster and the player immediately turned and walked away. It does help that the referees have all that tech to help them out. Haha, I remember that as well. Robshaw trudged off like he'd been given 100 lines for not doing his maths homework. Rugby referees are very good (Steve Walsh aside). Football could learn a lot from them |
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Post by Olgrligm on Mar 23, 2015 13:06:46 GMT
No.
So long as phrases like 'brushed him with his arm' and 'there's a slight touch' are used, I wouldn't trust the officials to get it right. Plus cricket and rugby are much more black and white in terms of the rules. If a ball pitches in line and is going to hit the stumps, the batsman is out. If the tennis ball lands outside the line by even a fraction it's out. Every referee in football applies the handball rule differently and there seems to be no consensus on what exactly constitutes a foul due to handball.
I'd wire the referees up, though. It gives officials in rugby more authority and keeps the players well behaved.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Mar 23, 2015 13:07:16 GMT
I think there are two parts to this.
1. Where there is a natural break in play (for example where the ref has blown for what he thinks is a penalty or a foul which could be a red card) then video technology must be brought in - there is no good reason not to. In the case of the wrong player being sent off on Saturday - play was stopped for 3 minutes. A video review would have only taken 10 - 20 seconds so play would actually have been speeded up if video had been used.
2. Where there is NO natural break in play (for example the penalty we did not get for handball on Saturday) things are a bit more complicated. The only way to use video technology in such cases would be either for the 4th official to review the video without being asked OR for clubs, as in tennis, to have a certain number of challenges - they would not lose a "life" for a successful challenge but they would lose a "life" for an unsuccessful one.
I think the best way would be to trial option 1. above first and bring that in if the trial works and then (if option 1 works with no problems) trial option 2 after the mechanics have been worked out.
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Mar 23, 2015 13:07:57 GMT
Can't come soon enough for me!
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Post by eddyclamp on Mar 23, 2015 13:10:19 GMT
Yes I thought he performed brilliantly. There was an occasion when one of the England players was saying something to the ref and the ref just said "Christopher!!" Like an old school headmaster and the player immediately turned and walked away. It does help that the referees have all that tech to help them out. Haha, I remember that as well. Robshaw trudged off like he'd been given 100 lines for not doing his maths homework. Rugby referees are very good (Steve Walsh aside). Football could learn a lot from them There is a big difference between a rugby and football player in regards respect towards the officials. can you imagine Terry yes sir no sir to a ref. |
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Post by Vestan Pance on Mar 23, 2015 13:14:08 GMT
Agree with the points made. Rugby is light years ahead both in their on the pitch activity, but equally as importantly their ability to cite a player that brings the game into disrepute after the event. It is nonsensical for FIFA to entrench professional football into some sort of Corinthian state of amateur chivalry. Professional football has no moral barometer whatsoever these days so it should be treated with the contempt the players deserve.
A point I would like to add however; I chose to stay in the West Midlands and watch the rugby rather than attend Saturday's game (my season ticket wasn't used either, oh the shame) and what I found interesting was not just the manner in which the players respect the referee, but vice-versa also. The referees clearly defined any issue, were keen to point out good activity on the pitch and where necessary, a good two-way dialogue occurred between captain and official, all designed for the betterment of the game, and ultimately the spectacle of the sport.
Compare that with Martin Atkinson. Whilst not overly adept at lip reading, every decision he made was met with either "shut up" or "go away" at any player that approached to question. I don't want to see ref's harangued, but I do believe that respect is a two way street and our senior officials don't help themselves. Imagine being at your desk today and your boss telling you to shut up and go away every time you sought clarification on a point. You'd soon think he/she is a tool.
The referees association have to take some sort of action after what has been an horrendous season. It starts with accountability on a personal level, and the honesty to say that support is required given the pace and spirit in which the game is played. Do those simple things and they go some way to repairing their tarnished image, do nothing and, realistically, the refereeing profession is in dire trouble.
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Mar 23, 2015 13:14:45 GMT
No. So long as phrases like 'brushed him with his arm' and 'there's a slight touch' are used, I wouldn't trust the officials to get it right. Plus cricket and rugby are much more black and white in terms of the rules. If a ball pitches in line and is going to hit the stumps, the batsman is out. If the tennis ball lands outside the line by even a fraction it's out. Every referee in football applies the handball rule differently and there seems to be no consensus on what exactly constitutes a foul due to handball. I'd wire the referees up, though. It gives officials in rugby more authority and keeps the players well behaved. I agree with your last point. My wife is finished her refereeing refresher course so I have seen the hallowed handbook and believe me the rules are clear, it's the old duffer refs we have in the Prem that need sorting out. Loads of really good young refs coming through, retire the existing lot and start again. Plus give them video technology, job done. It won't be perfect, nothing is, but it will be way better than what we have now. As for other sports and 'black and white', have you ever tried sorting out what does and doesn't constitute a penalty in rugby these days in amongst a maul of blokes? |
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Mar 23, 2015 13:20:04 GMT
Agree with the points made. Rugby is light years ahead both in their on the pitch activity, but equally as importantly their ability to cite a player that brings the game into disrepute after the event. It is nonsensical for FIFA to entrench professional football into some sort of Corinthian state of amateur chivalry. Professional football has no moral barometer whatsoever these days so it should be treated with the contempt the players deserve. A point I would like to add however; I chose to stay in the West Midlands and watch the rugby rather than attend Saturday's game (my season ticket wasn't used either, oh the shame) and what I found interesting was not just the manner in which the players respect the referee, but vice-versa also. The referees clearly defined any issue, were keen to point out good activity on the pitch and where necessary, a good two-way dialogue occurred between captain and official, all designed for the betterment of the game, and ultimately the spectacle of the sport. Compare that with Martin Atkinson. Whilst not overly adept at lip reading, every decision he made was met with either "shut up" or "go away" at any player that approached to question. I don't want to see ref's harangued, but I do believe that respect is a two way street and our senior officials don't help themselves. Imagine being at your desk today and your boss telling you to shut up and go away every time you sought clarification on a point. You'd soon think he/she is a tool. The referees association have to take some sort of action after what has been an horrendous season. It starts with accountability on a personal level, and the honesty to say that support is required given the pace and spirit in which the game is played. Do those simple things and they go some way to repairing their tarnished image, do nothing and, realistically, the refereeing profession is in dire trouble. Top post VP! |
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Post by spitthedog on Mar 23, 2015 13:49:12 GMT
Watching Rugby is so refreshing
I think rugby is no easier to officiate than football in fact it is very difficult to get it all right, but they have worked out a way of doing it and maintaining the authority of the refs who don't abuse it either. They have also done this with minimal resources compared to football.
On Saturday the guy Owens maintained complete control of that game which was about as tense as you could get in international sport. He also had to call some very difficult decisions which he did calmly. Nobody surrounded the ref at the end or told him to p*** off etc.
I thought Shearer made a decent point too in terms of getting more ex players involved in refereeing.
"The guys that are playing in League One or League Two who have not been financially rewarded, I think we need to get more of those guys in who have played the game. They will be fitter."
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Post by cousindupree on Mar 23, 2015 14:19:11 GMT
Watching Rugby is so refreshing I think rugby is no easier to officiate than football in fact it is very difficult to get it all right, but they have worked out a way of doing it and maintaining the authority of the refs who don't abuse it either. They have also done this with minimal resources compared to football. On Saturday the guy Owens maintained complete control of that game which was about as tense as you could get in international sport. He also had to call some very difficult decisions which he did calmly. Nobody surrounded the ref at the end or told him to p*** off etc. I thought Shearer made a decent point too in terms of getting more ex players involved in refereeing. "The guys that are playing in League One or League Two who have not been financially rewarded, I think we need to get more of those guys in who have played the game. They will be fitter." Totally agree with you I watched the England game and it restored my faith a little in sport which severely gets a regular kicking watching football. The referee was absolutely superb in his handling of the game and decision making and the way he handled Robshaw's attempt to politely bitch and moan was how it should be between ref and player. Footie fans tend not to like Rugby but hey you can't help to admire the respect that referees get,the respect starts at junior level and is very much a cornerstone of the game. |
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Post by mrcoke on Mar 23, 2015 14:37:53 GMT
I'm can't agree.
Using replay technology slows down the game too much while officials play repeated playbacks. If they then got the decision right I would be more agreeable to the suggestion, but the reality is they can still get the decision wrong. The 1st French try was not a try on Saturday, the player lost control/dropped the ball as he was touching down. The commentators knew it was the wrong decision, but accepted the official line that the player was still in control of the ball. But the truth is he released the ball and it touched the ground so it was a knock-on, or thrown forward. He was travelling forward so the ball was moving forwards relative to the ground. (Rule 12: If you catch it again before it touches another player or touches the ground you can play on. Otherwise it is a "knock on" and play may be stopped.)
Yes let's have instant technology like ball over the line, but not endless replays from different angles to scrutinise to the last mm, which is still only in 2 dimensions and therefore not always 100% conclusive. Rugby referees also have the sanction of moving the point of a penalty 10m further forward.(penalties may be moved 10 metres forward of their original position (either) due to talk-back from the players) This makes it far easier for Nigel Owens to maintain order.
The referees are getting a lot of flack. I sympathise with them, having tried to do it myself. If anyone is at fault, I think linesmen do not help the referees enough. The authorities should take action to reduce the pressure on referees from players and managers by a strict code of conduct, e.g. only the captain is permitted to speak to an official. Other players may only speak when spoken to. This may sound draconian, but how would you describe the pressure referees are under from players, managers, spectators, media, trial by replay, etc.? |
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Post by mrred on Mar 23, 2015 14:44:56 GMT
It takes all of 5 seconds to generate slow motion replays from different angles. More time is wasted now with players disputing cards or feigning injury. This talk of it slowing the game down is myth.
If nothing is implemented after this season, it never will. It's been the most shambolic season as far as officiating is concerned than as far as I can remember. More players, more managers and more clubs need to be shouting up about it.
Agree with VP too. Refs (and players of course) need to give respect rather than dictate it.
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Post by metalhead on Mar 23, 2015 14:52:08 GMT
As much as the video technology argument is peddled, the fact is we have a dreadful level of refereeing standards at the moment. I don't believe video technology would improve that, it would merely allow complacent referees to get away with not doing their job effectively. People forget, that Collina, the best referee in the world, only retired about 9 years ago and that was due to being forced by The Italian FA. Howard Webb, probably the best English referee for a long time, only retired recently. These are two very good referees who were able to handle modern football with all its pace, skill, diving, etc, without the aid of video technology.
We have a problem and that is primarily the standard of refereeing. I also worry that some refs have allowed their position to go to their heads.
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Post by baystokie on Mar 23, 2015 15:01:02 GMT
More use of the fourth official and wiring him to the ref could be implemented at L1/2 or non-league level as a trial.
What I personally am against is the cosy coterie of 'top' referees on a circuit of Prem games - ie dissolve the PMAO(?) - the Riley-led organisation. Having a form of closed shop encourages familiarity and erodes independence of thought, attitude and action, Make the present elite compete with refs from Championship, even LI. At the moment, only death, old age and lack of fitness will rid us of the Riley brotherhood. FA needs to grow a pair but then, pigs don't fly.
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 23, 2015 15:16:48 GMT
The use of technology would only be used for so called contentious incidents , possibly once or twice possibly three times during a game , most reffing decisions are pretty clear
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Post by jaybee on Mar 23, 2015 15:28:24 GMT
We had it on in the car coming home and admired the bit where the ref basically said:- "Captains - here please. You are all being a bunch of plonkers which is spoiling a good game of rugby. Go back to the half way line now, have a word with your team and tell them to behave - if not someone will be off" End of - so simple. Just imagine:- "Oy John Terry Stop being such an arrogant mouthy prat Tell the rest of your side the same and let's get on with the game"  |
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Post by harryburrows on Mar 23, 2015 15:43:08 GMT
We had it on in the car coming home and admired the bit where the ref basically said:- "Captains - here please. You are all being a bunch of plonkers which is spoiling a good game of rugby. Go back to the half way line now, have a word with your team and tell them to behave - if not someone will be off" End of - so simple. Just imagine:- "Oy John Terry Stop being such an arrogant mouthy prat Tell the rest of your side the same and let's get on with the game" It's also a brutal game at times , some real big hits and a lot of things going on in the scrum . You never see any players rolling around faking injuries though |
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Post by tuum on Mar 23, 2015 16:25:33 GMT
We had it on in the car coming home and admired the bit where the ref basically said:- "Captains - here please. You are all being a bunch of plonkers which is spoiling a good game of rugby. Go back to the half way line now, have a word with your team and tell them to behave - if not someone will be off" End of - so simple. Just imagine:- "Oy John Terry Stop being such an arrogant mouthy prat Tell the rest of your side the same and let's get on with the game" It's also a brutal game at times , some real big hits and a lot of things going on in the scrum . You never see any players rolling around faking injuries though There has been a couple of instances in the last year or so of players feigning injury for non existent high tackles in order to draw the penalty or get the opposition sinbinned. Both incidents I saw were pepetrated by the poncey Backs mind. |
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Post by slicko on Mar 23, 2015 16:46:23 GMT
Let me highlight a few instances which spring to mind, where immediate video playback could have changed the outcome.
Oxlade Chamberlain / Gibbs red card mistaken identity
Neil Swarbrick sent off Gareth McAuley for Craig Dawson's foul
Beach ball ruling 2009, Sunderland 1 v 0 Liverpool
Jonathan de Guzman heading for goal for a possible Swansea City win against Arsenal when Lee Probert blew up
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Post by geoff321 on Mar 23, 2015 16:59:03 GMT
Rugby Union is not a good example to compare with soccer.
In my opinion the huge pressure on officials is contributing to basic mistakes.
Video technology yes, but only for absolute key decisions.
Believe it or not some decisions do go for us, as in the West Brom game.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 19:48:32 GMT
Part of the big difference between football and rugby is that with football -
When the ball goes out of play both sides claim the throw in.
When the ball goes behind the goal, one side claims a corner and the other a goal kick.
Football players cheat by diving and feigning injury.
Rugby players show respect for the ref - because they know that they have to.
Reffing a rugby match must be much easier as there are less cheating twats on the pitch.
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Post by flinteastwood on Mar 24, 2015 22:52:17 GMT
I used to play rugby union and we were taught as kids that respect for the coaches , refs and opponents were as important as how good you were cos if you cant play to the refs rules, and the refs always right in rugby, you will never be on the pitch, which I learned the hard way after tellin the ref to f*** off I was sent straight off and my coach benched me for 2 games after as punishment.
Also in rugby only captains can go over to the ref which would sort out teams surrounding the refs after every little foul tryin to get players carded and is a easy rule to enforce just give teams notice that any player surrounding refs will be carded and it will stop right away.
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Post by antall on Mar 24, 2015 23:02:38 GMT
Coming from a rugby town and being brought up playing rugby i can tell you from a young age you are learned to respect the refs decision. As to kids football where parents are on the side going on at the ref in rugby its completely different.
Also in rugby you dont have the energy to waste going on at the ref as its way nore physical than football.
IMO video technology wont be good for football. It would slow down the play to much. Rugby as many stoppages and breaks in play.
IMO football would benefit with 2 refs 4 liners and 4 goal line refs. That way you have a view from every angle without slowing the game down.
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Post by lordb on Mar 24, 2015 23:31:00 GMT
Let me highlight a few instances which spring to mind, where immediate video playback could have changed the outcome. Oxlade Chamberlain / Gibbs red card mistaken identity Neil Swarbrick sent off Gareth McAuley for Craig Dawson's foul Beach ball ruling 2009, Sunderland 1 v 0 Liverpool Jonathan de Guzman heading for goal for a possible Swansea City win against Arsenal when Lee Probert blew up What was wrong with the beach ball goal? |
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Post by slicko on Mar 25, 2015 10:52:59 GMT
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Post by onionman on Mar 25, 2015 13:22:20 GMT
The way rugby is played and refereed is several thousand times better than the way football is played and refereed.
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Post by lordb on Mar 25, 2015 13:48:11 GMT
live & learn  I always thought that if the ball hit/was hit by an 'outside' object the game carried on Obviously not. |
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