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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:00:32 GMT
As the world's moves on with cricket English cricket gets left in the dark ages. We have this crazy fixation with first class cricket played over 4 days in front of half a dozen oaps. Should we embrace the new more exciting formats of cricket that generate excitement, revenue, larger crowds and captures the the younger audience and make this the focal point of the cricket season. Neh let's carry on playing laborious tedious unpopular format in front of a handful of grandads. Why because we're British we invented the game and everyone else is wrong. I see your point, however seated in the past , first class cricket over several days is the only way in which you can produce Test Cricketers ....even Test cricket has moved on and methods must move on with it ....but the basic form of the game must always remain the same .We also invented the shorter form of the game as well , the basic problem may well be too many first class counties not producing enough truly top class players ......nothing to do with embracing a twenty over slog .
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 20, 2015 12:18:01 GMT
Not a clue Bish, my cricket knowledge is not good enough to know who would be the right man to lead us forward, but I do know enough to know that Moores was never the man for the job! I can't believe how it's all turned to shit, it only seems like two minutes ago we were no.1 in the world and seemed to have the world at our feet. Then it all fell apart at the seams, Flower, Pietersen, Trott, Swann......I just hope we can turn it around soon, just like the Aussies have seemed to manage. To be fair mate neither do I ......but it needs to be someone who is a breath of fresh air , re-appointing Moores was a strange and negative thing to do .....I would like to see someone who has recent experience on the playing side , and is receptive to the way the game has changed in the last year or two ....who is open to speculation ?.....Flower was the best coach we have had in years , he perhaps got to embroiled in it and something had to give , hence the Pietersen situation , a great pity .....as to Trott don't be surprised if he is not back in the set up before too much longer ....perhaps as Test Match opener alongside Cook ? Trott does appear to be well on his way to a return, I really hope he does. The decision to leave Stokes out is going to bite us in the arse I think, I know his form hasn't been great but he seems to love the condition in Australia, and he has that ability to be a match winner, something I dont believe the likes of Woakes & Jordan possess. Alex Hales needs to be in the side now I feel, probably at the expense of Bell as well, despite him performing well in the tri-nations I think it's time that we see a full shift in our approach to ODI's. Ali & Hales opening the batting would give us that aggressive explosive start to an innings that seems to be the way the game has headed recently. We need to either reignite our bowling attack, or find some bowlers from somewhere, because we just don't look capable of taking 10 wickets at the moment.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 20, 2015 12:25:19 GMT
As the world's moves on with cricket English cricket gets left in the dark ages. We have this crazy fixation with first class cricket played over 4 days in front of half a dozen oaps. Should we embrace the new more exciting formats of cricket that generate excitement, revenue, larger crowds and captures the the younger audience and make this the focal point of the cricket season. Neh let's carry on playing laborious tedious unpopular format in front of a handful of grandads. Why because we're British we invented the game and everyone else is wrong. I see your point, however seated in the past , first class cricket over several days is the only way in which you can produce Test Cricketers ....even Test cricket has moved on and methods must move on with it ....but the basic form of the game must always remain the same .We also invented the shorter form of the game as well , the basic problem may well be too many first class counties not producing enough truly top class players ......nothing to do with embracing a twenty over slog .
Cricket in this country is focused on Test Match cricket - and rightly so. What we don't have is the structures in the county game that churns out top quality cricketers. Too many medium pacers and gentle off spin.
We don't seem to have the right balance across the game too.
For example, just look at the difference in the public appeal of the NatWest T20 competition (the name just starts the whole thing off) vs. the Bigbash or IPL. We could make it into the biggest T20 competition in the world (as there really isn't much in the way of cricket being played elsewhere during our summer given that we're the only 'top' nation in the northern hemisphere). A few more world T20 stars (playing some cricket in their off season) and a few less domestic plodders would help the T20 game. It would also help focus on the big difference between our standards, and the way we play the game, against those top cricketers from abroad.
We need a serious re-think, but test cricket needs to reign supreme.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Feb 20, 2015 12:28:29 GMT
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Post by LGH87 on Feb 20, 2015 12:29:55 GMT
Pretty much identical to England's record against major nations in the football World Cup!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:34:17 GMT
I see your point, however seated in the past , first class cricket over several days is the only way in which you can produce Test Cricketers ....even Test cricket has moved on and methods must move on with it ....but the basic form of the game must always remain the same .We also invented the shorter form of the game as well , the basic problem may well be too many first class counties not producing enough truly top class players ......nothing to do with embracing a twenty over slog .
Cricket in this country is focused on Test Match cricket - and rightly so. What we don't have is the structures in the county game that churns out top quality cricketers. Too many medium pacers and gentle off spin.
We don't seem to have the right balance across the game too.
For example, just look at the difference in the public appeal of the NatWest T20 competition (the name just starts the whole thing off) vs. the Bigbash or IPL. We could make it into the biggest T20 competition in the world (as there really isn't much in the way of cricket being played elsewhere during our summer given that we're the only 'top' nation in the northern hemisphere). A few more world T20 stars (playing some cricket in their off season) and a few less domestic plodders would help the T20 game. It would also help focus on the big difference between our standards, and the way we play the game, against those top cricketers from abroad.
We need a serious re-think, but test cricket needs to reign supreme. Yes 20/20 needs to be re-structured along the lines of IPL and Big Bash .....it's too unwieldy to include all counties , it needs to be cut down to a more manageable level.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:35:36 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2015 12:40:53 GMT
Selection ain't the issue - or at least the squad we have gone with isn't. There are no glaring omissions, there will always be one or two on the fringes a case could be made for like Stokes.
There are of course longer term selection issues - persisting with Cook as ODI captain being the most obvious but not the only one. The treatment of Bopara and Tredwell being others, particularly the latter. Also, and a recent thing, rewarding a one off performance with the sort of automatic selection normally afforded to senior players. This has an impact on players who did well initially (eg Stokes, and I would say Ali as an opening bat) and those who are just as good - but failed on their chance. Hayles fits into this category. It's a reactive selection policy that causes long term issues.
The biggest problem though is the sum of the whole being considerably less than the sum of the parts. And for that the management shoulder most blame, along, frankly, with the senior players. Broad's final two deliveries in this game being a case in point; a hugely talented cricketer but a total petulant mard arse. Short and Shorter. Dumb and Dumber. The bowling of an idiot or a ... well, I'm not too sure! Certainly not someone contributing his best to the team effort. Didn't he see Southee bowling; 7 wickets all from full deliveries.
We are better than we've shown - and can still do better with the personnel out there. Who is going to dish out the tough love that is needed though to get these underachievers playing better and as a team? Could we sack Moores today - and bring in, well, anyone else!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 12:59:17 GMT
I agree with that ......who do you think should have got the job ? .......and who should get it now ? Not a clue Bish, my cricket knowledge is not good enough to know who would be the right man to lead us forward, but I do know enough to know that Moores was never the man for the job! I can't believe how it's all turned to shit, it only seems like two minutes ago we were no.1 in the world and seemed to have the world at our feet. Then it all fell apart at the seams, Flower, Pietersen, Trott, Swann......I just hope we can turn it around soon, just like the Aussies have seemed to manage. I know he is working with Scotland at the moment , but I may be tempted to suggest Paul Collingwood's name .....a recent player , knows the game at International level , respected by the players .....he may be worth a punt .
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Feb 20, 2015 13:56:43 GMT
Marcus Trescothick, he must be close to retiring, 39 aint he? Was a good International one day cricketer, still in the game so knows how the modern one day game works, we could do a lot worse.
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Post by redsaturday on Feb 20, 2015 13:58:16 GMT
As the world's moves on with cricket English cricket gets left in the dark ages. We have this crazy fixation with first class cricket played over 4 days in front of half a dozen oaps. Should we embrace the new more exciting formats of cricket that generate excitement, revenue, larger crowds and captures the the younger audience and make this the focal point of the cricket season. Neh let's carry on playing laborious tedious unpopular format in front of a handful of grandads. Why because we're British we invented the game and everyone else is wrong. I see your point, however seated in the past , first class cricket over several days is the only way in which you can produce Test Cricketers ....even Test cricket has moved on and methods must move on with it ....but the basic form of the game must always remain the same .We also invented the shorter form of the game as well , the basic problem may well be too many first class counties not producing enough truly top class players ......nothing to do with embracing a twenty over slog . Well that would be true if we were producing a lot of good test players or had a good test team, and we don't the test team itself is in decline, we have one real class bowler in anderson and even he struggles away from the homeland. As for the batsmen only Root and Ali would make it in to any of the top nations sides. Is it a mere coincidence that the last 4 years has seen the decline of the english test team and the emergance of other nations one day teams superiority.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 20, 2015 14:33:04 GMT
I see your point, however seated in the past , first class cricket over several days is the only way in which you can produce Test Cricketers ....even Test cricket has moved on and methods must move on with it ....but the basic form of the game must always remain the same .We also invented the shorter form of the game as well , the basic problem may well be too many first class counties not producing enough truly top class players ......nothing to do with embracing a twenty over slog . Well that would be true if we were producing a lot of good test players or had a good test team, and we don't the test team itself is in decline, we have one real class bowler in anderson and even he struggles away from the homeland. As for the batsmen only Root and Ali would make it in to any of the top nations sides. Is it a mere coincidence that the last 4 years has seen the decline of the english test team and the emergance of other nations one day teams superiority. Ali - really? Since his ton in Colombo his record has been mediocre; 13 ODI's. 246 runs. Average 18.92. One fifty. Top score 58. That's sustained mediocrity I would say. We have a habit of conferring too much class on new players on the basis of a handful (often one or two) innings. Ali is firmly in the category of "promising" just now. He has a lot to learn about batting. The same category as Taylor, Ballance, Hayles, Butler etc. Also Stokes who folk were hailing as the new Beefy / Freddie after one test performance in Perth. The one shining light for England just now is we have quite a few exciting prospects - although that light is diminished somewhat by the absence of quick bowlers among those prospects!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 15:23:41 GMT
Marcus Trescothick, he must be close to retiring, 39 aint he? Was a good International one day cricketer, still in the game so knows how the modern one day game works, we could do a lot worse. Well that would depend on whether he has overcome his mental health problems concerning travelling abroad and being away from family etc for long periods ..who knows ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 15:41:01 GMT
I see your point, however seated in the past , first class cricket over several days is the only way in which you can produce Test Cricketers ....even Test cricket has moved on and methods must move on with it ....but the basic form of the game must always remain the same .We also invented the shorter form of the game as well , the basic problem may well be too many first class counties not producing enough truly top class players ......nothing to do with embracing a twenty over slog . Well that would be true if we were producing a lot of good test players or had a good test team, and we don't the test team itself is in decline, we have one real class bowler in anderson and even he struggles away from the homeland. As for the batsmen only Root and Ali would make it in to any of the top nations sides. Is it a mere coincidence that the last 4 years has seen the decline of the english test team and the emergance of other nations one day teams superiority. I would suggest that the Test side is in a transitional period , as happens periodically when teams that have had a successful period begin to disband , this is nothing to do with an improvement at a different format by other international teams . We lost badly against Australia last winter it's true, but there was enough improvement last summer to suggest we are back on the road to improvement , this summer against Australia will be a barometer as to how far we've improved or an indicator of how far we've still to go There are plenty of good players coming through , Root is now established , Ballance did remarkably well , Taylor is good enough to to so at the highest level also and there are other youngsters around , a defeat again this summer will not be the end of the world as long as there are positives to be gained from it , Australia have improved greatly over the last eighteen months , but it's less than that since we beat them 3-1 over here .
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 20, 2015 15:47:45 GMT
Well that would be true if we were producing a lot of good test players or had a good test team, and we don't the test team itself is in decline, we have one real class bowler in anderson and even he struggles away from the homeland. As for the batsmen only Root and Ali would make it in to any of the top nations sides. Is it a mere coincidence that the last 4 years has seen the decline of the english test team and the emergance of other nations one day teams superiority. I would suggest that the Test side is in a transitional period , as happens periodically when teams that have had a successful period begin to disband , this is nothing to do with an improvement at a different format by other international teams . We lost badly against Australia last winter it's true, but there was enough improvement last summer to suggest we are back on the road to improvement , this summer against Australia will be a barometer as to how far we've improved or an indicator of how far we've still to go There are plenty of good players coming through , Root is now established , Ballance did remarkably well , Taylor is good enough to to so at the highest level also and there are other youngsters around , a defeat again this summer will not be the end of the world as long as there are positives to be gained from it , Australia have improved greatly over the last eighteen months , but it's less than that since we beat them 3-1 over here . ...but there is precious little in the bowling coming through rather worryingly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 15:52:25 GMT
Yes something we've touched on before now and is becoming more apparent with every poor limited overs performance that takes place .
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Post by JoeinOz on Feb 21, 2015 3:16:54 GMT
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 21, 2015 7:34:29 GMT
Marcus Trescothick, he must be close to retiring, 39 aint he? Was a good International one day cricketer, still in the game so knows how the modern one day game works, we could do a lot worse. Well that would depend on whether he has overcome his mental health problems concerning travelling abroad and being away from family etc for long periods ..who k nows ? He knows & I don't think he's bothered
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 8:20:44 GMT
Well that would depend on whether he has overcome his mental health problems concerning travelling abroad and being away from family etc for long periods ..who k nows ? He knows & I don't think he's bothered I know , I don't think he's been bothered since he called time on England , which is fair enough .
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 21, 2015 8:23:12 GMT
Pakistan look like they're making a bid to be the worst of the "big" nations at this year's tournament; losing by 150 runs v the Windies is poor. But then again when you lose your first 4 wickets for just one run (!) a heavy defeat is the only outcome. They'll need to work harder though to out do England on current form though.
Meanwhile, back in that land of the feckless who wear three lions on their shirt, does the Aussie / Bangladesh wash out have any implications for us? Probably not. We still only have to win the three "easier" games to go through unless... Bangladesh beat Sri Lanka, then we could need 4 wins due to our abysmal net run rate and that bonus point for Bangladesh.
And staying in the land of the useless, interesting to see Ashley Giles chipping in with his thoughts - a new low for England. Fair enough. As long as this isn't a precursor to a pitch to take over from Moores. Things can only get better... unless, that is, you've got the King of Spain in charge!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 8:29:27 GMT
Pakistan look like they're making a bid to be the worst of the "big" nations at this year's tournament; losing by 150 runs v the Windies is poor. But then again when you lose your first 4 wickets for just one run (!) a heavy defeat is the only outcome. They'll need to work harder though to out do England on current form though. Meanwhile, back in that land of the feckless who wear three lions on their shirt, does the Aussie / Bangladesh wash out have any implications for us? Probably not. We still only have to win the three "easier" games to go through unless... Bangladesh beat Sri Lanka, then we could need 4 wins due to our abysmal net run rate and that bonus point for Bangladesh. And staying in the land of the useless, interesting to see Ashley Giles chipping in with his thoughts - a new low for England. Fair enough. As long as this isn't a precursor to a pitch to take over from Moores. Things can only get better... unless, that is, you've got the King of Spain in charge! Juan Carlos as England Betting coach perhaps ?
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 21, 2015 8:41:56 GMT
Pakistan look like they're making a bid to be the worst of the "big" nations at this year's tournament; losing by 150 runs v the Windies is poor. But then again when you lose your first 4 wickets for just one run (!) a heavy defeat is the only outcome. They'll need to work harder though to out do England on current form though. Meanwhile, back in that land of the feckless who wear three lions on their shirt, does the Aussie / Bangladesh wash out have any implications for us? Probably not. We still only have to win the three "easier" games to go through unless... Bangladesh beat Sri Lanka, then we could need 4 wins due to our abysmal net run rate and that bonus point for Bangladesh. And staying in the land of the useless, interesting to see Ashley Giles chipping in with his thoughts - a new low for England. Fair enough. As long as this isn't a precursor to a pitch to take over from Moores. Things can only get better... unless, that is, you've got the King of Spain in charge! Juan Carlos as England Betting coach perhaps ? Any "Juan" but Giles!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2015 8:44:36 GMT
Juan Carlos as England Betting coach perhaps ? Any "Juan" but Giles! I'll happily endorse that .....although as cricketing " wheelie bins " go there has been none better
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Post by 2004 on Feb 21, 2015 13:31:12 GMT
Not going great so far is it
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 21, 2015 13:53:19 GMT
Not going great so far is it Depends on who you are; the co-hosts are happy with life and Irish eyes are smiling!
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Post by ************** on Feb 21, 2015 13:56:34 GMT
What's happening then Cricket fans? Have we won it yet or what?
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Feb 21, 2015 14:04:19 GMT
What's happening then Cricket fans? Have we won it yet or what? If we win owt at this World Cup. it will be the wooden spoon.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 22, 2015 9:00:13 GMT
Good game developing between South Africa and India with the Proteas losing a couple of early wickets in pursuit of a very competitive 307. A test of the South African's batting resolution. The bowling being less of an issue than scoreboard pressure. The sort of pressure we've consistently wilted under. Also the sort of pressure Sri Lanka faced earlier when successfully chasing down 230 odd against Afghanistan after losing 4 cheap wickets. I wonder how we would have faired. Guess we'll find out tonight when we play Scotland. I'm sure we'll bowl first, and Scotland will be happy with a similar score above 200 to see how, what looks like a frail batting line, up copes with pressure. I predict a 10 wicket win for England!
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 22, 2015 10:31:10 GMT
SA are choking! 153-7.
But what about the MCG - looks like a home game for India. The Indian's are having a great time. A great sight.
Remember though - we beat India twice in the tri-series.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Feb 22, 2015 10:53:35 GMT
SA are choking! 153-7. But what about the MCG - looks like a home game for India. The Indian's are having a great time. A great sight. Remember though - we beat India twice in the tri-series. India have said though, they were using that tri series has just a warm up for the world cup.
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