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Post by Vestan Pance on Jan 2, 2015 9:38:34 GMT
Like most, i was pretty angry about the handball decision yesterday.
But what really pisses me off is the fact that not one referee yesterday, not one, is held to account over the decision. It is the same story across the piece for all referees. I understand giving them some protection from the press when they did it for 40 Woodbine & expenses, but these fuckers are on the thick end of £100,000 a year now and this protection they get is pissing me right off.
What would spare my righteous indignation somewhat is if Michael Oliver had been able to come out and say "yep, missed that one", or "in my opinion, the two players were too close for me to give it as hand to ball". I will take that, both are IMHO reasonable answers. What i cannot fucking bare is him and his ilk shuffling off to their (fairly big, one would imagine) houses having not been answerable to the press.
Have we come to a point where we are entitled to hear from the officials at the end of the game?
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Post by metalhead on Jan 2, 2015 9:45:30 GMT
Nope, because officials can do no wrong. Ask Greg Dyke, he'll explain.
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Post by Vestan Pance on Jan 2, 2015 10:06:24 GMT
That's the thing though, isn't it?
I don;t mind them making mistakes, but if they have a different view or explained the rationality behind some decisions, they would be better thought of. This current situation is absurd and annoying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 10:28:17 GMT
I would like to ask him, would he had given it at the other end. I can answer it myself, and it would be yes without a doubt. They are big club refs today. No doubt at all!
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Jan 2, 2015 10:36:51 GMT
It's not just the referees, some of the decisions from linesmen this season have been utterly baffling, take the Rob Green incident yesterday, how you can manage to fail to notice that is nothing short of incredible, most of Upton Park noticed it and they aren't fucking paid to.
Just go all Roman on them and line them all up, then execute every 10th one, standards would soon improve.
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Post by potterspele on Jan 2, 2015 10:39:25 GMT
Is a lot of it in the eye of the beholder? Bias I mean. We've had some favourable decisions as well as crap ones this season so the old 'it balances itself' comes into play at least to some degree.
I'm not sure publicly hanging them out to dry will help. It might dissuade a referee from making a big decision from fear of the barracking they will get from all sides if they get it wrong.
Video evidence surely is the way forward if any form of accountability is introduced? Either way there will be a huge furore over every incident as the rules of what is and isn't a foul are muddy at best. I can see that throwing up plenty of controversy.
Personally (and I'm probably in the minority here) I wouldn't change a thing. I think a dodgy decision is all part of the entertainment value and I would say we've benefitted from it in both ways; Delap getting sent off against city comes to mind. That game was decided by the red card.
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Post by norman conquest on Jan 2, 2015 10:41:15 GMT
It's not just the referees, some of the decisions from linesmen this season have been utterly baffling, take the Rob Green incident yesterday, how you can manage to fail to notice that is nothing short of incredible, most of Loftus road noticed it and they aren't fucking paid to. Just go all Roman on them and line them all up, then execute every 10th one, standards would soon improve. |
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Post by 2004 on Jan 2, 2015 10:59:34 GMT
Oliver would never do that the fucking coward.
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Post by mrred on Jan 2, 2015 11:08:55 GMT
The answer to your question is yes. This is one of my biggest bugbears with Referee's. It's all shut off and blanketed from the public and they answer to no one. As well as any action being taken against them by the FA being made public, they should have to face the press after games just as managers do. If they've made the right calls in games they shouldn't have anything to worry about.
I read that that have to sit back and watch the game with a panel, but as we all know, that equates to fuck all as they're back the very next week to dish out more incompetence.
And we think we have it bad. The lower leagues get all our excrement. I watched Stewart Atwell reffing the Vale game on Boxing Day.
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Post by stokiejohn on Jan 2, 2015 11:30:30 GMT
Video evidence is really the only way forward imo. The biggest decisions almost always favour the biggest clubs where they are involved. A bad decision against one of these clubs frightens them to death.
I'd like to see the stats on major decisions like penalties and would be stunned if they didn't show a significant bias ifo the top clubs.
The FA will continue to do FA about it then I expect.
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Post by nenepotter on Jan 2, 2015 11:44:12 GMT
Is a lot of it in the eye of the beholder? Bias I mean. We've had some favourable decisions as well as crap ones this season so the old 'it balances itself' comes into play at least to some degree. I'm not sure publicly hanging them out to dry will help. It might dissuade a referee from making a big decision from fear of the barracking they will get from all sides if they get it wrong. Video evidence surely is the way forward if any form of accountability is introduced? Either way there will be a huge furore over every incident as the rules of what is and isn't a foul are muddy at best. I can see that throwing up plenty of controversy. Personally (and I'm probably in the minority here) I wouldn't change a thing. I think a dodgy decision is all part of the entertainment value and I would say we've benefitted from it in both ways; Delap getting sent off against city comes to mind. That game was decided by the red card. Standard of refereeing was shocking yesterday in the premier league and seems to get worse. Ok it probably balances itself over the course of a season but can't rely in that and shouldn't have to rely on that for key decisions. I think it's an insult to intelligence football fans when what was an obvious penalty to everyone in the stands is just waved away. Goal line technology has been brought in and that's worked well. Surely it's time to bring in other video evidence for other key decisions like penalties and offside. Confidence in refs is all time low and getting worse. |
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Post by Squeekster on Jan 2, 2015 12:08:13 GMT
How the linesman didn't see Rob Green handle the ball out side the box yesterday is just unbelievable he was right in line with it and why can't a linesman give a throw when it's a yard from him he still waits for the ref to give it but thinks he can spot an infringement in the box from 12 yards away?
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Post by trigger on Jan 2, 2015 12:08:30 GMT
Perhaps a few imports from other leagues will improve our current crop of shit referrees, they'll soon realise they're expendible and when they're looking at normal jobs in the region of 20-25k per year they'll realise how cushy they've had it robbing a living.
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Post by spongebobflathead on Jan 2, 2015 12:11:43 GMT
According to their own studies the refs in the prem get over 96% of decisions correct and the linesmen over 98% ????
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Post by trigger on Jan 2, 2015 12:19:30 GMT
According to their own studies the refs in the prem get over 96% of decisions correct and the linesmen over 98% ???? "According to their own studies", brilliant quote from them, love to see an independent review being carried out. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jan 2, 2015 12:25:35 GMT
But the crucial difference is the refs do come and explain when the big clubs suffer. Mourinho got a personal apology last week from the ref for missing the fabregas penalty. We are just Stoke/Leicester/Swansea small clubs who don't deserve the same answer.
If that's not bias then I don't know what is
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Post by spongebobflathead on Jan 2, 2015 12:25:54 GMT
According to their own studies the refs in the prem get over 96% of decisions correct and the linesmen over 98% ???? "According to their own studies", brilliant quote from them, love to see an independent review being carried out. You can't  , it was an internal procedure commitioned by the referee commitee in 2012 through an independent company ,when challenged about how they the figures were derived they wouldn't (and to this day) give even the slightest inclination to how they were calculated , laughable |
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Jan 2, 2015 12:27:22 GMT
According to their own studies the refs in the prem get over 96% of decisions correct and the linesmen over 98% ???? "According to their own studies", brilliant quote from them, love to see an independent review being carried out. They probably do. But I don't care how many throw ins and corners they correctly call its the big game changing decisions which I care about. What percentage of these do they get right. Also I'm sick and tired of hearing how these things even themselves out over a season. Where is the evidence for this? As for crap refereeing being "part of the entertainment" how ridiculous. Sent from my GT-I8190N using proboards |
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Post by metalhead on Jan 2, 2015 12:32:08 GMT
Oliver would never do that the fucking coward. I imagine he is proud of the job he's done. He favoured the big club, all part of the job. |
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Post by Vestan Pance on Jan 2, 2015 12:39:00 GMT
It's an interesting discussion point. But i accept and appreciate that some mistakes will be made. Moreover in most instances i think that they do a pretty good job. It comes back to the two points that continue to frustrate and annoy;
1. An official is part of the game. It is therefore right an proper than an official, particularly one as highly paid as a Premier League referee, should be held to account after the game to explain his decision making. I'm not asking for their balls to be handed over, just "so what did you see here to make you give that decision?". Why does the FA deem that so unacceptable?
2. Football is an emotive subject, therefore any shite spouted by anyone in the first hour after a game should be immune from punishment. Gary Monk might be an arsehole, but if he thinks Moses dived and therefore he is a cheat, we have to assume that emotions are running high and he's probably not coming at it from a logical perspective. Premier League Management has to be one of the most stressful roles in World Sport, so maybe a little intelligent latitude from our governing body might not go amiss.
To conclude, the refereeing "profession" from grass roots up is hindered by officious officiating, and it's time it was brought to the discussion table. The best refs i had were the ones who were quick to either explain when they had made an error or actually had ther bollocks to say "sorry lads, i got that one wrong". How hard is that?
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Jan 2, 2015 12:41:25 GMT
Is a lot of it in the eye of the beholder? Bias I mean. We've had some favourable decisions as well as crap ones this season so the old 'it balances itself' comes into play at least to some degree. I'm not sure publicly hanging them out to dry will help. It might dissuade a referee from making a big decision from fear of the barracking they will get from all sides if they get it wrong. Video evidence surely is the way forward if any form of accountability is introduced? Either way there will be a huge furore over every incident as the rules of what is and isn't a foul are muddy at best. I can see that throwing up plenty of controversy. Personally (and I'm probably in the minority here) I wouldn't change a thing. I think a dodgy decision is all part of the entertainment value and I would say we've benefitted from it in both ways; Delap getting sent off against city comes to mind. That game was decided by the red card. Your idea of entertainment and mine must be quite different then. If Oliver had done his job correctly we would more than likely have gone on to get all 3 points and record a well earned win against one of the big boys. Oliver once again screws up. He needs to be sent to a rest home with the likes of Wiley, Atkinson and Dean; they can while away their final hours together playing cribbage or something similar, totally useless (and what's worse BIASED) tosspots all of them. Video technology can't come in soon enough for me and it will (note not should) help to reduce this constant 'referee makes dodgy decision' crap that only gets in the way of discussing the actual game itself. Plus while we are on the subject of useless officials the liners need to be younger, fitter and faster at taking decisions. They also need to go on a flag waving course too. The one down our side (Novus) was totally useless AGAIN yesterday. Walters was flattened at one stage and he just stood and stared....unbelievable. He couldn't even keep up with play which should be a pretty fundamental requirement at this level. |
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Post by passtheoatcakes on Jan 2, 2015 12:46:22 GMT
It's an interesting discussion point. But i accept and appreciate that some mistakes will be made. Moreover in most instances i think that they do a pretty good job. It comes back to the two points that continue to frustrate and annoy; 1. An official is part of the game. It is therefore right an proper than an official, particularly one as highly paid as a Premier League referee, should be held to account after the game to explain his decision making. I'm not asking for their balls to be handed over, just "so what did you see here to make you give that decision?". Why does the FA deem that so unacceptable? 2. Football is an emotive subject, therefore any shite spouted by anyone in the first hour after a game should be immune from punishment. Gary Monk might be an arsehole, but if he thinks Moses dived and therefore he is a cheat, we have to assume that emotions are running high and he's probably not coming at it from a logical perspective. Premier League Management has to be one of the most stressful roles in World Sport, so maybe a little intelligent latitude from our governing body might not go amiss. To conclude, the refereeing "profession" from grass roots up is hindered by officious officiating, and it's time it was brought to the discussion table. The best refs i had were the ones who were quick to either explain when they had made an error or actually had ther bollocks to say "sorry lads, i got that one wrong". How hard is that? Gary Monk has the kind of face that I would like to hit with a decent length of 3 by 2....and I am not a violent man (other than match days of course  ). |
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Post by potterspele on Jan 2, 2015 15:01:43 GMT
Is a lot of it in the eye of the beholder? Bias I mean. We've had some favourable decisions as well as crap ones this season so the old 'it balances itself' comes into play at least to some degree. I'm not sure publicly hanging them out to dry will help. It might dissuade a referee from making a big decision from fear of the barracking they will get from all sides if they get it wrong. Video evidence surely is the way forward if any form of accountability is introduced? Either way there will be a huge furore over every incident as the rules of what is and isn't a foul are muddy at best. I can see that throwing up plenty of controversy. Personally (and I'm probably in the minority here) I wouldn't change a thing. I think a dodgy decision is all part of the entertainment value and I would say we've benefitted from it in both ways; Delap getting sent off against city comes to mind. That game was decided by the red card. Your idea of entertainment and mine must be quite different then. If Oliver had done his job correctly we would more than likely have gone on to get all 3 points and record a well earned win against one of the big boys. Oliver once again screws up. He needs to be sent to a rest home with the likes of Wiley, Atkinson and Dean; they can while away their final hours together playing cribbage or something similar, totally useless (and what's worse BIASED) tosspots all of them. Video technology can't come in soon enough for me and it will (note not should) help to reduce this constant 'referee makes dodgy decision' crap that only gets in the way of discussing the actual game itself. Plus while we are on the subject of useless officials the liners need to be younger, fitter and faster at taking decisions. They also need to go on a flag waving course too. The one down our side (Novus) was totally useless AGAIN yesterday. Walters was flattened at one stage and he just stood and stared....unbelievable. He couldn't even keep up with play which should be a pretty fundamental requirement at this level. To some degree I'm just playing devils advocate really. I was calling the ref all sorts yesterday. But were you complaining when Bojan scored against Spurs cos the slight deflection off Diouf would have registered it offside? I'm not saying it totally balances out or that that is a fair or even the best way but largely when people complain about refs it's pretty much with a one sided view often in the wake of a bad decision. Still I think it does add a flavour of entertainment. Just as an example; the crowd are generally flat these days til the ref spices it up with a crap decision. For me it's all part of the experience of football. I expect crap refs. In fact I want to call the ref all sorts before the game starts. It's part of the fun. I'd hate for the atmosphere to be perpetually dull which sadly would be the case half the time without the ref to shout at. Just a thought anyway. Also I don't buy that refs are any worse now. They've always been pretty crap! |
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Post by MilanStokie on Jan 2, 2015 15:15:22 GMT
Does anyone have a link to a video/gif of the incident, didn't get chance to see it again on MOTD etc.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by onionman on Jan 2, 2015 15:18:25 GMT
The problem isn't so much that they're unaccountable, it's that they are actually accountable to the superstars (who they want to be loved by) and the big name managers (who they're afraid of upsetting).
As for the argument that these things even themselves out, well consider our 14 games against Man Utd since we got promoted. There's been four absolutely stinking decisions - Rooney, Ronaldo and Neville inexplicably escaping red cards, and Smalling's blatant handball - all of which had a huge bearing on the result in favour of Man Utd. There hasn't been a single one in Stoke's favour. And that's without even mentioning the never-ending stream of 50-50s in favour of Man Utd, like the laughably allowed Rojo goal and the awarding of several soft penalties for Man Utd at Old Trafford, while similar penalty offences by Man Utd players at the Brit go unpunished.
The first step towards a fairer game is to end this culture of celebrity refs. Stop paying them, so the likes of Michael Oliver don't have an incentive to become a ref in the first place. Have a very large pool of refs, so that the likes of Martin Atkinson know that, no matter how much they favour the big boys, they'll still be reffing Oxford v Hartlepool next week instead of getting named as England's World Cup ref. Ban all refs from calling players by their first name or nickname, so that the likes of Alan Wiley aren't allowed to respond to violent behaviour from big stars by saying things like "Hey Patrick, don't kick him in the bollocks again mate!" Ban all refs from posing for pictures with Alex Ferguson and collecting souvenirs from the likes Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard so that they can finally start treating all players as equals. Ban them from writing autobiographies, columns in the Daily Mail and appearing as panelists on the radio.
The alternative, which I prefer, is that we go back to the old school football rule, where the home team's manager refs the first half, and the away team's manager does the second half. At least that way both teams get to cheat equally.
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 2, 2015 15:23:31 GMT
According to their own studies the refs in the prem get over 96% of decisions correct and the linesmen over 98% ???? And accoding to my internal studies I am always right, on the other hand my wife reckons I would be doing well to get things right some of the time. I am thinking of installing video replay in the house. Problem is that I would be working on the argument before the last one I lost as she will have moved on. |
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Post by geoff321 on Jan 2, 2015 15:27:24 GMT
Firstly it is not the fault of the officials that the PL has now got around 4/5/6 elite clubs who are richer than the rest and have more influence.
Secondly it is also not their fault that these clubs' players/managers/chairman attempt to put pressure on them for favourable decisions.
Whether the officials are in awe of the top clubs is difficult to prove but we are where we are, if we want to eliminate mistakes or possible bias then bring in video technology.
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Post by Stoke711 on Jan 2, 2015 15:28:33 GMT
Like most, i was pretty angry about the handball decision yesterday. But what really pisses me off is the fact that not one referee yesterday, not one, is held to account over the decision. It is the same story across the piece for all referees. I understand giving them some protection from the press when they did it for 40 Woodbine & expenses, but these fuckers are on the thick end of £100,000 a year now and this protection they get is pissing me right off. What would spare my righteous indignation somewhat is if Michael Oliver had been able to come out and say "yep, missed that one", or "in my opinion, the two players were too close for me to give it as hand to ball". I will take that, both are IMHO reasonable answers. What i cannot fucking bare is him and his ilk shuffling off to their (fairly big, one would imagine) houses having not been answerable to the press. Have we come to a point where we are entitled to hear from the officials at the end of the game? Had a great view of Oliver when he turned the penalty down, pretty sure he told Stoke players he was too close. Still a penalty for me though as his hands shouldn't be up there. They were out at full stretch making himself a bigger target, he's not a keeper ffs. |
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Post by onionman on Jan 2, 2015 15:34:36 GMT
Like most, i was pretty angry about the handball decision yesterday. But what really pisses me off is the fact that not one referee yesterday, not one, is held to account over the decision. It is the same story across the piece for all referees. I understand giving them some protection from the press when they did it for 40 Woodbine & expenses, but these fuckers are on the thick end of £100,000 a year now and this protection they get is pissing me right off. What would spare my righteous indignation somewhat is if Michael Oliver had been able to come out and say "yep, missed that one", or "in my opinion, the two players were too close for me to give it as hand to ball". I will take that, both are IMHO reasonable answers. What i cannot fucking bare is him and his ilk shuffling off to their (fairly big, one would imagine) houses having not been answerable to the press. Have we come to a point where we are entitled to hear from the officials at the end of the game? Had a great view of Oliver when he turned the penalty down, pretty sure he told Stoke players he was too close. Still a penalty for me though as his hands shouldn't be up there. They were out at full stretch making himself a bigger target, he's not a keeper ffs. Exactly, his hands were up there because he was panicking and trying to stop his own inept defending costing his team a goal. It's a pathetic piece of justifying from Oliver. |
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 2, 2015 15:43:42 GMT
The problem is based on a number of factors. Firstly the amount of money involved in the game, secondly every moment is analysed in great detail, thirdly the rules allow for far too many "judgement" calls. Finally the referees have only themselves to blame for allowing all the players to crowd them and attempt to intimidate them.
An impartial video ref not influenced by the crowd or players, rule changes like offside position means offside not the daft "interfering with play". Referees should only discuss matters with the captains and an offender as in rugby. They should have live microphones so everyone can hear what is being said and why. Referees are respected in rugby and obeyed. I would introduce a sin bin to cover yellow card situations which would reduce "professional" fouls.
Referees could easily use the existing rules to stop a lot of the indiscipline towards them on the pitch.
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, it was an internal procedure commitioned by the referee commitee in 2012 through an independent company ,when challenged about how they the figures were derived they wouldn't (and to this day) give even the slightest inclination to how they were calculated , laughable 
).
