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Post by Trouserdog on Nov 30, 2014 9:58:52 GMT
After seeing the way Arnie just watched Glen Johnson stroll past him to score the winner, something just snapped with me.
It doesn't matter how sublime a player's first touch is, how creative they are, or whether they've got that ability to conjure up magic- if someone isn't willing to track back when there's danger to OUR goal then they shouldn't pull the shirt on. It's that simple. The risk of playing lazy, can't be arsed to defend shithouses far outweighs the benefit of including them. Victor Moses did the same a few weeks ago- completely switching off and costing us a goal. That's why it seems like the opposition score every chance while we have to carve every goal out of granite: we are gifting these chances in shiny paper with a ribbon round them. Carry on like this and we'll be relegated, regardless of how much attacking talent we supposedly possess.
I'm not calling for a return to Pulisball two rigid lines of 4, or defending at the expense of any ambition, but at the moment I just don't trust us to keep any team out. And while our attack might promise much, it's not actually delivering a lot, so it's not like we can just throw caution to the wind and assume we'll outscore the opposition, because we're not clinical enough to do that.
So what should we do in practical terms?
Defensively the only thing we need to worry about is whether that back four can DEFEND. Shawcross is rock solid, and at the moment Bardsley and Pieters are our best options at full-back. I don't rate Muniesa at all as a left back, and Cameron's not the best either. Wilson is just fucking dodgy...the way he let Lambert turn him (when he ended up fouling him) was the action of a player who isn't a natural defender. I still don't know what he is to be honest. We have to sign a centre back ASAP and I'd even get Wilko back to cover for Bardsley- at least he can defend.
The midfield two have to be disciplined and switched on all the time. N'Zonzi blows hot and cold but is too good to leave out. I'd switch Cameron into midfield to partner him, and drill the fuckers to death so they know their role inside out. Adam is an option late in games if we're chasing, but his play is suicidal at times.
Wide men have to track back when necessary as well as attack. Arnie would never play again if it was down to me- I've lost all patience with the mardy fucker. I'd have Moses back in once he's fit, but the defensive side of his game needs some serious work. Diouf is useless as a centre forward, but his pace is useful and he works hard- therefore, he should be switched out wide, where he's looked OK. The other flank spot is between Walters and Assaidi, neither of whom are great options but at least they'll both get up and down a bit.
Bojan is the jewel in the crown- we have to build the team around him and let him do his thing. Having said that, he is one of the players who's actually shown some willing to track back and get a foot in at times. Ahead of him I'd always play Crouch, as he can hold the ball much better than concrete-shins Diouf can, and then get the others running beyond him.
I never thought we'd have as many problems as we've got, but this is a team that needs a serious re-think.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Nov 30, 2014 10:05:12 GMT
Best post on here for a very long time
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Nov 30, 2014 10:10:53 GMT
After seeing the way Arnie just watched Glen Johnson stroll past him to score the winner, something just snapped with me. It doesn't matter how sublime a player's first touch is, how creative they are, or whether they've got that ability to conjure up magic- if someone isn't willing to track back when there's danger to OUR goal then they shouldn't pull the shirt on. It's that simple. The risk of playing lazy, can't be arsed to defend shithouses far outweighs the benefit of including them. Victor Moses did the same a few weeks ago- completely switching off and costing us a goal. That's why it seems like the opposition score every chance, while we have to carve every goal out of granite: we are gifting these chances in shiny paper with a ribbon round them. Carry on like this and we'll be relegated, regardless of how much attacking talent we supposedly possess. I'm not calling for a return to Pulisball two rigid lines of 4, or defending at the expense of any ambition, but at the moment I just don't trust us to keep any team out. And while our attack might promise much, it's not actually delivering a lot, so it's not like we can just throw caution to the wind and assume we'll outscore the opposition, because we're not clinical enough to do that. So what should we do in practical terms? Defensively the only thing we need to worry about is whether that back four can DEFEND. Shawcross is rock solid, and at the moment Bardsley and Pieters are our best options at full-back. I don't rate Muniesa at all as a left back, and Cameron's not the best either. Wilson is just fucking dodgy...the way he let Lambert turn him (when he ended up fouling him) was the action of a player who isn't a natural defender. I still don't know what he is to be honest. We have to sign a centre back ASAP and I'd even get Wilko back to cover for Bardsley- at least he can defend. The midfield two have to be disciplined and switched on all the time. N'Zonzi blows hot and cold but is too good to leave out. I'd switch Cameron into midfield to partner him, and drill the fuckers to death so they know their role inside out. Adam is an option late in games if we're chasing, but his play is suicidal at times. Wide men have to track back when necessary as well as attack. Arnie would never play again if it was down to me- I've lost all patience with the mardy fucker. I'd have Moses back in once he's fit, but the defensive side of his game needs some serious work. Diouf is useless as a centre forward, but his pace is useful and he works hard- therefore, he should be switched out wide, where he's looked OK. The other flank spot is between Walters and Assaidi, neither of whom are great options but at least they'll both get up and down a bit. Bojan is the jewel in the crown- we have to build the team around him and let him do his thing. Having said that, he is one of the players who's actually shown some willing to track back and get a foot in at times. Ahead of him I'd always play Crouch, as he can hold the ball much better than concrete-shins Diouf can, and then get the others running beyond him. I never thought we'd have as many problems as we've got, but this is a team that needs a serious re-think. Agree with everything you say apart from the but about Crouch. Play Crouch and you can wave goodbye to Bojan having the time and space in dangerous areas to do his thing. As crap as Diouf's first touch is, his threat in behind with his pace pushes defences back, giving space to Bojan. I like Diouf but unfortunately he is completely rubbish at holding the ball up. We need someone in there who can but someone with a bit of pace. The problem is, neither Diouf nor Crouch seem to be the answer. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 10:12:13 GMT
Agreed on Arnie - unacceptable defensively and should be dropped for Assaidi midweek.
As for the defence, I'd much rather see Geoff at RB. I can't imagine Bardsley putting in the kind of performance that Cameron did against West Ham. It could be that an opportunity has arisen in midfield though, and he proved he can be equally as impressive in that role with his game changing appearance against Swansea.
Wilson is just a scapegoat. Of course we could sign a better centre half but you could apply that all over. We could upgrade Whelan, Arnie, Adam etc if we wanted and had the funds. Wilson is the best option we have so he continues until that changes. He's played every game, missed one through injury (in which the defence was all over the place), and then was instantly restored to the team (and we looked better for it).
There's no point continually criticising a player when we have nobody better. That's a job for the management in Jan.
We also have big problems at the other end with another game gone with no goals registered again.
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Post by wuzza on Nov 30, 2014 10:20:56 GMT
That sums it all up perfectly Trouserdog.
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Post by jeycov on Nov 30, 2014 10:21:16 GMT
I'm not calling for a return to Pulisball two rigid lines of 4, or defending at the expense of any ambition, but at the moment I just don't trust us to keep any team out. And while our attack might promise much, it's not actually delivering a lot, so it's not like we can just throw caution to the wind and assume we'll outscore the opposition, because we're not clinical enough to do that.
Spot on, we do seem to have thrown all caution to the wind re our defending at the moment
Some of that can be "explained / excused?" with the various combinations that have been forced upon us through injury
Poyet in his post match interview candidly said that he hasn't got the quality players to play "barcelona type football" and that you have to play to your strengths.
Allardyce also mentioned setting up his team to cancel out / reduce the oppositions strengths.
We don't seem to be doing this
In an ideal world we need the same back 4 playing together. Bego will have a better idea of what's going on in front of him!
It may mean buying an established CB to provide more stability
We may have to compromise our adventurous style SLIGHTLY to get some organisation back
The forwards need to do their bit too.
Making the most of set pieces and getting more shots on target
It's so frustrating
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Post by fca47 on Nov 30, 2014 10:24:15 GMT
He did exactly the same thing in the home match against Southamton, let Clyne go past him without a care in the world. Doesn't offer much at either end of the pitch, a pity could be a good player.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 10:24:48 GMT
People weren't calling for Moses to get dropped after the West Ham game, he has cost us in exactly the same way multiple times...
Moses offers way more going forward so I'd play Assaidi for that same reason but still....
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Post by fca47 on Nov 30, 2014 10:29:13 GMT
People weren't calling for Moses to get dropped after the West Ham game, he has cost us in exactly the same way multiple times... Moses offers way more going forward so I'd play Assaidi for that same reason but still.... But as you say, Moses was our main attacking threat, I'm afraid the same can't be said of Arnie. Not doing it at either end of the pitch, or even in the middle. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 10:33:18 GMT
People weren't calling for Moses to get dropped after the West Ham game, he has cost us in exactly the same way multiple times... Moses offers way more going forward so I'd play Assaidi for that same reason but still.... But as you say, Moses was our main attacking threat, I'm afraid the same can't be said of Arnie. Not doing it at either end of the pitch, or even in the middle. Totally agree with the fact he should be dropped sadly, he offered nothing in the first half and not a stunning amount in the second... But he is being hung out to dry over this singular incident while honestly I think defensively he offers more then most our other wingers, I certainly don't remember Assaidi being much use defensively! |
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Post by stokiejoe on Nov 30, 2014 10:52:09 GMT
Arnie is the least of our problems; in a queue behind Adam, Wilson and Cameron.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 30, 2014 10:53:57 GMT
Arnie is the least of our problems; in a queue behind Adam, Wilson and Cameron. Really? So despite being directly responsible for yesterday's goal Cameron is our main problem? Wilson too? Give me a break. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 30, 2014 10:56:19 GMT
After seeing the way Arnie just watched Glen Johnson stroll past him to score the winner, something just snapped with me. It doesn't matter how sublime a player's first touch is, how creative they are, or whether they've got that ability to conjure up magic- if someone isn't willing to track back when there's danger to OUR goal then they shouldn't pull the shirt on. It's that simple. The risk of playing lazy, can't be arsed to defend shithouses far outweighs the benefit of including them. Victor Moses did the same a few weeks ago- completely switching off and costing us a goal. That's why it seems like the opposition score every chance while we have to carve every goal out of granite: we are gifting these chances in shiny paper with a ribbon round them. Carry on like this and we'll be relegated, regardless of how much attacking talent we supposedly possess. I'm not calling for a return to Pulisball two rigid lines of 4, or defending at the expense of any ambition, but at the moment I just don't trust us to keep any team out. And while our attack might promise much, it's not actually delivering a lot, so it's not like we can just throw caution to the wind and assume we'll outscore the opposition, because we're not clinical enough to do that. So what should we do in practical terms? Defensively the only thing we need to worry about is whether that back four can DEFEND. Shawcross is rock solid, and at the moment Bardsley and Pieters are our best options at full-back. I don't rate Muniesa at all as a left back, and Cameron's not the best either. Wilson is just fucking dodgy...the way he let Lambert turn him (when he ended up fouling him) was the action of a player who isn't a natural defender. I still don't know what he is to be honest. We have to sign a centre back ASAP and I'd even get Wilko back to cover for Bardsley- at least he can defend. The midfield two have to be disciplined and switched on all the time. N'Zonzi blows hot and cold but is too good to leave out. I'd switch Cameron into midfield to partner him, and drill the fuckers to death so they know their role inside out. Adam is an option late in games if we're chasing, but his play is suicidal at times. Wide men have to track back when necessary as well as attack. Arnie would never play again if it was down to me- I've lost all patience with the mardy fucker. I'd have Moses back in once he's fit, but the defensive side of his game needs some serious work. Diouf is useless as a centre forward, but his pace is useful and he works hard- therefore, he should be switched out wide, where he's looked OK. The other flank spot is between Walters and Assaidi, neither of whom are great options but at least they'll both get up and down a bit. Bojan is the jewel in the crown- we have to build the team around him and let him do his thing. Having said that, he is one of the players who's actually shown some willing to track back and get a foot in at times. Ahead of him I'd always play Crouch, as he can hold the ball much better than concrete-shins Diouf can, and then get the others running beyond him. I never thought we'd have as many problems as we've got, but this is a team that needs a serious re-think. That's Arnie, Moses, Assaisi, Adam and Walters all screwed then. Who do we turn to next I wonder? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 10:59:16 GMT
Arnie is the least of our problems; in a queue behind Adam, Wilson and Cameron. No,Arnie has consistently been rubbish all season,the others have had good and bad games. To be honest his attitude stinks,every time he plays a misplaced pass ....which is often....he makes a gesture like it isn't his fault.He's a prima donna who thinks he's a better footballer than he really is. I've said it before we'd be no worse off playing with 10 men than having Arnie in the team the way he is at present |
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Post by stokiejoe on Nov 30, 2014 11:03:41 GMT
Arnie is the least of our problems; in a queue behind Adam, Wilson and Cameron. Really? So despite being directly responsible for yesterday's goal Cameron is our main problem? Wilson too? Give me a break. No, Adam is our main problem followed by Wilson and Cameron. Too many defensive mistakes amongst them on a very regular basis. They and us are the ones who need a break. If the team was at full strength without injuries none of them would be first choice. |
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Post by stokiejoe on Nov 30, 2014 11:08:01 GMT
Arnie is the least of our problems; in a queue behind Adam, Wilson and Cameron. No,Arnie has consistently been rubbish all season,the others have had good and bad games. To be honest his attitude stinks,every time he plays a misplaced pass ....which is often....he makes a gesture like it isn't his fault.He's a prima donna who thinks he's a better footballer than he really is. I've said it before we'd be no worse off playing with 10 men than having Arnie in the team the way he is at present A bit unfair to say Arnie has been rubbish all season given the limited amount of game time he has had. Always easier to pick on a scapegoat, players need to make themselves available more. Arnie did make a number of contributions to the game and tracked back, watch the fame again and you will see. |
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Post by Ryan_Shawjosh on Nov 30, 2014 11:14:03 GMT
Excellent post. I've said this on another thread but I think our biggest miss defensively is not necessarily Huth's defensive qualities, but his leadership. We always seemed to have two very influencial players at cb since promotion which IMO is why we were so good defensively. Shawcross wasn't a leader in our first prem season but he was learning at the time off Faye. That being said, if Huth was still in the team, we would still be conceding due to the lack of help the defence is getting (as mentioned in the OP). I'm a fan of Whelan and think he's definitely good enough to play in front of the back four but we saw yesterday, with Adam and N'Zonzi, as the two more defensive CMs, too much gets through. One of them needs to step up to cover when Whelan and Sidwell are both missing, and I don't think Adam is capable of that. I think, ideally, Bardsley would have been available yesterday to cover right back with Cameron moving to CM.
Going back to players not tracking back, that's the most inexcusable part of poor defending. I can accept it when players have bad days or if they make genuine errors as long as the effort was there. Arnautovic not following Johnson in was inexcusable and Moses not following his man against West Ham was the same. I'd expect Hughes to have a serious word with Arnautovic after yesterday. He can moan about not playing all he wants but if he's going to let a player run right in front of him for a clear goal scoring opportunity and not react in any way, then he doesn't deserve to get on the pitch at all. It's a shame really because he wasn't like this during the second half of last season and an on form Arnautovic, Bojan and Moses would be, without doubt, our most threatening attack we've seen in a long time. It's defensive lapses like we've seen recently that will mean we'll never see that happening.
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Post by upthefud on Nov 30, 2014 11:16:13 GMT
Adam changes games, we'd have lost away at Hull without him. He's the one midfielder we've got who will grab a game by the scruff of it's neck.
He's had poor games but only the Arnautovic fan club will try and argue that he's more of a problem than their golden boy.
I didn't want to pick up Arnie for his role in Liverpool's winner as Moses is guilty of the and thing. However Moses so our main attacking threat with 5 assists and a goal, he can be given a bit of leeway. Sadly Arnie should be working his bollocks off to get back in the team. Yet again he was unacceptable yesterday.
His little boy arm throwing must piss the other payers off
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Nov 30, 2014 11:23:46 GMT
You are right players need to concentrate and know their jobs , many of the best players also work the hardest so for Stoke players to think that don't have to work is plain wrong and is costing us at the moment . It's up to the manager to get this sorted out
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 30, 2014 11:23:49 GMT
Adam changes games, we'd have lost away at Hull without him. He's the one midfielder we've got who will grab a game by the scruff of it's neck. He's had poor games but only the Arnautovic fan club will try and argue that he's more of a problem than their golden boy. I didn't want to pick up Arnie for his role in Liverpool's winner as Moses is guilty of the and thing. However Moses so our main attacking threat with 5 assists and a goal, he can be given a bit of leeway. Sadly Arnie should be working his bollocks off to get back in the team. Yet again he was unacceptable yesterday. His little boy arm throwing must piss the other payers off People are commenting on YESTERDAY and Adam was a disgrace. Adam did exactly as you describe with Arnie at the end. Fucked up his corner then just stood there, hands on hips, and watched them break. Arnie was pretty crap again but there was no lack of effort. Adam's performance was a disgrace. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 11:31:56 GMT
Adam changes games, we'd have lost away at Hull without him. He's the one midfielder we've got who will grab a game by the scruff of it's neck. He's had poor games but only the Arnautovic fan club will try and argue that he's more of a problem than their golden boy. I didn't want to pick up Arnie for his role in Liverpool's winner as Moses is guilty of the and thing. However Moses so our main attacking threat with 5 assists and a goal, he can be given a bit of leeway. Sadly Arnie should be working his bollocks off to get back in the team. Yet again he was unacceptable yesterday. His little boy arm throwing must piss the other payers off People are commenting on YESTERDAY and Adam was a disgrace. Adam did exactly as you describe with Arnie at the end. Fucked up his corner then just stood there, hands on hips, and watched them break. Arnie was pretty crap again but there was no lack of effort. Adam's performance was a disgrace. How many bad performances from a player do you allow before you say enough is enough ? Arnie has not put in a good performance this season so doesn't deserve a place in the team.Adam....and other players you mention....have |
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Post by kev1060 on Nov 30, 2014 11:32:37 GMT
Whilst I agree with much of this post, I don't think there's too much wrong with our defence to be honest. We're in the top 5 or 6 teams for goals conceded, it's just as Trouser says, we're getting punished every time one player switches off and teams clinically seem to score every time with their one or two chances per game.
At the other end of the pitch, we don't seem to get any lady luck either. Yesterday, hitting the post and having one cleared off the line for example.
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Post by stokiejoe on Nov 30, 2014 11:33:38 GMT
Adam changes games, we'd have lost away at Hull without him. He's the one midfielder we've got who will grab a game by the scruff of it's neck. He's had poor games but only the Arnautovic fan club will try and argue that he's more of a problem than their golden boy. I didn't want to pick up Arnie for his role in Liverpool's winner as Moses is guilty of the and thing. However Moses so our main attacking threat with 5 assists and a goal, he can be given a bit of leeway. Sadly Arnie should be working his bollocks off to get back in the team. Yet again he was unacceptable yesterday. His little boy arm throwing must piss the other payers off Only a member of the Adam fan club would say that "He's had poor games". I'm not a member of any fan club other than Stoke City but it is a little unfair to pick on Arnie who was having his first league start since October. The training ground isn't the same as getting match time. Blaming a left winger for a goal when there were at least 3 defenders and a goalkeeper between Johnson and the goal is a bit harsh. What annoys me most is given that we have much quicker players, they don't move into spaces to make themselves available. Nzonzi was getting the criticism last season for passing backwards for the same reason. We don't have the quality in depth to cope with injuries |
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Post by Ryan_Shawjosh on Nov 30, 2014 11:34:18 GMT
Adam changes games, we'd have lost away at Hull without him. He's the one midfielder we've got who will grab a game by the scruff of it's neck. He's had poor games but only the Arnautovic fan club will try and argue that he's more of a problem than their golden boy. I didn't want to pick up Arnie for his role in Liverpool's winner as Moses is guilty of the and thing. However Moses so our main attacking threat with 5 assists and a goal, he can be given a bit of leeway. Sadly Arnie should be working his bollocks off to get back in the team. Yet again he was unacceptable yesterday. His little boy arm throwing must piss the other payers off People are commenting on YESTERDAY and Adam was a disgrace. Adam did exactly as you describe with Arnie at the end. Fucked up his corner then just stood there, hands on hips, and watched them break. Arnie was pretty crap again but there was no lack of effort. Adam's performance was a disgrace. I agree Adam was no better but, in fairness to upthefud, there was a lack of effort with the goal. He put in a lot more effort overall than he has been but it was very poor for him to not even try to track Johnson's run. Unfortunately Arnautovic wasn't the only one but people, myself included, are using him as an example as his mistake was the one we conceded from. It's definitely not the first time he hasn't tracked his man, either. |
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Post by upthefud on Nov 30, 2014 11:47:20 GMT
Yesterday Arnie was marginally less poor than Charlie
Over the course of the season Arnie has performed worse than Charlie. Neither have had regular game time.
Charlie was our only decent player at Sunderland away, changed the game against Hull and added much needed tempo against Burnley when he came on.
What positive impact has Arnie had?
I don't think that's a bold statement.
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Post by Pugsley on Nov 30, 2014 11:49:58 GMT
It was a good opening post until you said Wilko can defend. If you think defending includes giving a penalty away nigh on every game then fine.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 30, 2014 11:55:09 GMT
Whilst I agree with much of this post, I don't think there's too much wrong with our defence to be honest. We're in the top 5 or 6 teams for goals conceded, it's just as Trouser says, we're getting punished every time one player switches off and teams clinically seem to score every time with their one or two chances per game. At the other end of the pitch, we don't seem to get any lady luck either. Yesterday, hitting the post and having one cleared off the line for example. We are all over the place at the back and its getting worse with each passing game! Consistently switching off is rank bad defending. We need everyone fit and then pick the strongest available back 4. For Tuesday, that is Bardsley, Shawcross, Muniesa, Pieters. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2014 12:02:07 GMT
Whilst I agree with much of this post, I don't think there's too much wrong with our defence to be honest. We're in the top 5 or 6 teams for goals conceded, it's just as Trouser says, we're getting punished every time one player switches off and teams clinically seem to score every time with their one or two chances per game. At the other end of the pitch, we don't seem to get any lady luck either. Yesterday, hitting the post and having one cleared off the line for example. We are all over the place at the back and its getting worse with each passing game! Consistently switching off is rank bad defending. We need everyone fit and then pick the strongest available back 4. For Tuesday, that is Bardsley, Shawcross, Muniesa, Pieters.  |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 30, 2014 12:02:55 GMT
People are commenting on YESTERDAY and Adam was a disgrace. Adam did exactly as you describe with Arnie at the end. Fucked up his corner then just stood there, hands on hips, and watched them break. Arnie was pretty crap again but there was no lack of effort. Adam's performance was a disgrace. I agree Adam was no better but, in fairness to upthefud, there was a lack of effort with the goal. He put in a lot more effort overall than he has been but it was very poor for him to not even try to track Johnson's run. Unfortunately Arnautovic wasn't the only one but people, myself included, are using him as an example as his mistake was the one we conceded from. It's definitely not the first time he hasn't tracked his man, either. I am not defending Arnie's part in the goal because it was wank but it was the 85th minute, it was his first start in months and he was blowing out of his arse after 70 minutes. Let's put it down to tiredness on Arnie's part, wank though it was. Now, watch the goal again and watch Adam do exactly the same as Arnie yet he was even closer to the danger. I have no problem criticising any player but I do have a problem with the complete lack of balance and fairness on these things. Someone has commented on how an Arnie pass almost led to them scoring and slammed him as a result. No such comment about Adam doing exactly the same in a more dangerous position and under even less pressure. Its all bollocks. Arnie isn't playing well and hasn't merited a place in the team but in the absence of anyone better, then he needs to be given a run in the team. I've seen him play far worse than he did yesterday. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Nov 30, 2014 12:20:23 GMT
I don't think any Stoke player deserves the description 'disgrace' yesterday. One player was a complete liability though and that player was more Danube than Dundee.
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