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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 13:51:18 GMT
Fair enough but you are still wrong about what you think my views on pulis were. Opposition know exactly how to exploit our defensive frailty and it boils down to shape. Danny ings told me in person and pulis alluded to it in his goals on Sunday appearance after our defeat to Leicester. My views on the performances of some on Saturday is my opinion and where others have disagreed, discussion has ensued. This particular matter is different. It is clear to anyone with a set of eyes that our defensive problems are because we aren't a unit. The line is all wrong and the back 4 are not operating in unison or contact with each other. Cameron and Wilson have neither the discipline or defensive awareness to make Saturdays back 4 effective. As for the snigger, that wasn't aimed at you but if you want to snigger that is fine. I'm not precious enough to take offence at anything that is written on here. It's a messageboard and in the scheme of things is unimportant. Pass on my best wishes to nello! Edit - I've been wrong before. Of course I have, as have you. On this, I'm 100% right. what did Ings say to you, ? He was telling me how Burnley's plan was to isolate Shawcross from the game and "miss him out" wherever possible. If they had to engage him, the aim was to engage him in the full-back areas or drag him out of the middle. Both goals came from exactly that ploy. The opposition know our weaknesses and it is being exposed weekly. Liverpool did exactly the same on Saturday. The one time they managed to drag Shawcross out of the game, they scored. Chris Kamara mentioned the very same thing when analysing the Liverpool goal on Goals on Sunday.
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Post by jezzascfc on Dec 1, 2014 14:48:14 GMT
Interesting info on Burnley's tactics, Dave. So other teams can see what we do, that we have weak links in defence they can exploit by avoiding Ryan or dragging him out of position to cover for them.
My dad was a decent enough centre back in his day (he partnered Bluto in Stoke's youth ranks) and he says that Wilson will never be a centre back as long as he has a hole in his arse. We have never looked really solid since Huth was long-term injured. Similarly, for all Cameron's efforts going forward, he has a headless chicken, last ditch quality to his defensive work. 9/10ths of defending is positioning. We have too many "so called" defenders at the club who simply do not do an adequate job on that front, which affects those around them and exposes us to conceding easily avoidable goals on a regular basis.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 16:38:29 GMT
Let's hope Arnie just doesn't give up after 70 minutes of tireless work rate.... Indeed. If they play lets hope Cameron and Wilson remember that their primary job is to stop the opposition and to defend as a unit, helping Ryan in the process. That's the job of all players, midfielders and wingers included. Hell, even the forwards should do it. Front line of defence and all that. Look at thr like best teams in the world, Barca and Bayern, every player from front to back works incredibly hard off the ball. No amount of talent or ego makes you exempt from the defensive duties. If Messi and Robben can do it then it isn't above Arnie and Moses either. It appears you're reluctant to lay blame at the feet of your favourites.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 16:52:29 GMT
Interesting info on Burnley's tactics, Dave. So other teams can see what we do, that we have weak links in defence they can exploit by avoiding Ryan or dragging him out of position to cover for them. My dad was a decent enough centre back in his day (he partnered Bluto in Stoke's youth ranks) and he says that Wilson will never be a centre back as long as he has a hole in his arse. We have never looked really solid since Huth was long-term injured. Similarly, for all Cameron's efforts going forward, he has a headless chicken, last ditch quality to his defensive work. 9/10ths of defending is positioning. We have too many "so called" defenders at the club who simply do not do an adequate job on that front, which affects those around them and exposes us to conceding easily avoidable goals on a regular basis. I agree wholeheartedly mate and if those are the words of your dad, he is absolutely right. Although looking at me now, you wouldn't know it, I wasn't a bad goalkeeper in my time and I know how a back 4 should operate. Ours don't operate as one. They are a collection of individuals doing their own thing, with the exception with Ryan who is doing his damndest to cojole them into the right positions throughout the game. He can't do it alone, even though he is trying to do so. As young as 13, I have been a keeper training with a back 4 with a rope tied around each of their waists, the plan being to get them moving in unison, keeping a proper line, and not being pulled all over the place. It is clear as day that the two players most guilty of breaking that line are Wilson and Cameron. They do it all game, every game. Perhaps the fact that they aren't natural full-backs or centre halves goes some way to explaining the reasons for this but it is evident and it is a fact. It sounds basic, but the rope training was something that Pulis employed regularly with his back 4 and it something that is done at youth levels of almost every club.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 17:03:37 GMT
Indeed. If they play lets hope Cameron and Wilson remember that their primary job is to stop the opposition and to defend as a unit, helping Ryan in the process. That's the job of all players, midfielders and wingers included. Hell, even the forwards should do it. Front line of defence and all that. Look at thr like best teams in the world, Barca and Bayern, every player from front to back works incredibly hard off the ball. No amount of talent or ego makes you exempt from the defensive duties. If Messi and Robben can do it then it isn't above Arnie and Moses either. It appears you're reluctant to lay blame at the feet of your favourites. I'm not reluctant to lay the blame at the feet of anyone. I've already said that Arnie's role in their goal on Saturday was wank and my comment about tiredness was totally misunderstood, be it deliberately or otherwise. It does amaze me that you weren't prepared to slam Moses so severely given that he was guilty of the heinous crime to which you refer, not once, but twice, in the same game. Amaze me though it does, it shouldn't really surprise me should it? Arnie isn't my favourite either and I have acknowledged countless times that his form hasn't merited a position in the starting 11. I even advocated Walters starting ahead of him given that Walters had performed so well on coming back into the team. Still, you carry on because your post is very much a case of "pots and kettles isn't it"?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 17:09:30 GMT
That's the job of all players, midfielders and wingers included. Hell, even the forwards should do it. Front line of defence and all that. Look at thr like best teams in the world, Barca and Bayern, every player from front to back works incredibly hard off the ball. No amount of talent or ego makes you exempt from the defensive duties. If Messi and Robben can do it then it isn't above Arnie and Moses either. It appears you're reluctant to lay blame at the feet of your favourites. I'm not reluctant to lay the blame at the feet of anyone. I've already said that Arnie's role in their goal on Saturday was wank and my comment about tiredness was totally misunderstood, be it deliberately or otherwise. It does amaze me that you weren't prepared to slam Moses so severely given that he was guilty of the heinous crime to which you refer, not once, but twice, in the same game. Amaze me though it does, it shouldn't really surprise me should it? Arnie isn't my favourite either and I have acknowledged countless times that his form hasn't merited a position in the starting 11. I even advocated Walters starting ahead of him given that Walters had performed so well on coming back into the team. Still, you carry on because your post is very much a case of "pots and kettles isn't it"? I included Moses in the critique. Did you not read the post?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 17:13:41 GMT
I'm not reluctant to lay the blame at the feet of anyone. I've already said that Arnie's role in their goal on Saturday was wank and my comment about tiredness was totally misunderstood, be it deliberately or otherwise. It does amaze me that you weren't prepared to slam Moses so severely given that he was guilty of the heinous crime to which you refer, not once, but twice, in the same game. Amaze me though it does, it shouldn't really surprise me should it? Arnie isn't my favourite either and I have acknowledged countless times that his form hasn't merited a position in the starting 11. I even advocated Walters starting ahead of him given that Walters had performed so well on coming back into the team. Still, you carry on because your post is very much a case of "pots and kettles isn't it"? I included Moses in the critique. Did you not read the post? Of course I read it. You have to now though don't you but I don't recall you slamming him in the way you have done Arnie this weekend. Still, you carry on!
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Post by tazi on Dec 1, 2014 17:15:35 GMT
Fair enough but you are still wrong about what you think my views on pulis were. Opposition know exactly how to exploit our defensive frailty and it boils down to shape. Danny ings told me in person and pulis alluded to it in his goals on Sunday appearance after our defeat to Leicester. My views on the performances of some on Saturday is my opinion and where others have disagreed, discussion has ensued. This particular matter is different. It is clear to anyone with a set of eyes that our defensive problems are because we aren't a unit. The line is all wrong and the back 4 are not operating in unison or contact with each other. Cameron and Wilson have neither the discipline or defensive awareness to make Saturdays back 4 effective. As for the snigger, that wasn't aimed at you but if you want to snigger that is fine. I'm not precious enough to take offence at anything that is written on here. It's a messageboard and in the scheme of things is unimportant. Pass on my best wishes to nello! Edit - I've been wrong before. Of course I have, as have you. On this, I'm 100% right. That unit that you say who don't operate as a back four are actually part of a 25 man squad and if any combination from that cannot operate together then we really are fcuked and not only that deserve to be fcuked because afterall same as I've said previously these players have been together longer than the bloody manager and if they cannot practice different combinations in the event of possible injuries or losses if form then heaven fcuking help us.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 17:19:11 GMT
Heaven help us indeed. Pulis couldn't get a tune out of Cameron at right back either and he is a master of defensive coaching. He was also never prepared to even consider Wilson as anything other than a full-back daring not to risk him in the more dangerous "middle" areas of the pitch.
Clearly not signing a centre half is a mistake. How severe a mistake we won't know until the end of the season. Wherever we finish, you can safely say that we would have finished with a considerably higher points total than we will gather and a higher league position.
Whatever positives we achieve will be despite our back 4 and not because of it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 17:20:18 GMT
I included Moses in the critique. Did you not read the post? Of course I read it. You have to now though don't you but I don't recall you slamming him in the way you have done Arnie this weekend. Still, you carry on! I criticised Moses in exactly the same way mate. Flick back through my posts if you like, it's all there. I said several times it was completely unacceptable. To add some balance too, I've defended Arnie plenty of times on here over the past few months. Some are too quick to jump on his back. I'll defend him to the hilt when it comes to his form as I believe it's only a matter of time before he gets back to his best. What he did against Liverpool though, and what Moses did against West Ham, wasn't poor form or bad defending - it was just blatant dereliction of duty and responsibility. As Trouserdog rightly said, we can't carry that within our ranks. Hopefully it was just a one off for both the players in question.
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Post by tazi on Dec 1, 2014 17:20:21 GMT
Fair enough but you are still wrong about what you think my views on pulis were. Opposition know exactly how to exploit our defensive frailty and it boils down to shape. Danny ings told me in person and pulis alluded to it in his goals on Sunday appearance after our defeat to Leicester. My views on the performances of some on Saturday is my opinion and where others have disagreed, discussion has ensued. This particular matter is different. It is clear to anyone with a set of eyes that our defensive problems are because we aren't a unit. The line is all wrong and the back 4 are not operating in unison or contact with each other. Cameron and Wilson have neither the discipline or defensive awareness to make Saturdays back 4 effective. As for the snigger, that wasn't aimed at you but if you want to snigger that is fine. I'm not precious enough to take offence at anything that is written on here. It's a messageboard and in the scheme of things is unimportant. Pass on my best wishes to nello! Edit - I've been wrong before. Of course I have, as have you. On this, I'm 100% right. what did Ings say to you, ? He said to be aware of that Malcolm Clarke because he's been known to have peoples arses on plates, or something along those lines.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 17:23:11 GMT
Of course I read it. You have to now though don't you but I don't recall you slamming him in the way you have done Arnie this weekend. Still, you carry on! I criticised Moses in exactly the same way mate. Flick back through my posts if you like, it's all there. I said several times it was completely unacceptable. To add some balance too, I've defended Arnie plenty of times on here over the past few months. Some are too quick to jump on his back. I'll defend him to the hilt when it comes to his form as I believe it's only a matter of time before he gets back to his best. What he did against Liverpool though, and what Moses did against West Ham, wasn't poor form or bad defending - it was just blatant dereliction of duty and responsibility. As Trouserdog rightly said, we can't carry that within our ranks. Hopefully it was just a one off for both the players in question. Flick through your posts? I'm bored enough reading your current posts without having to trawl back through previous ones! Fuck me, I have a life you know. Talking of which, I've got to go and pick up a business associate from Manchester Piccadilly station now so I'll see you back here on Wednesday!
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Post by tazi on Dec 1, 2014 17:23:49 GMT
Heaven help us indeed. Pulis couldn't get a tune out of Cameron at right back either and he is a master of defensive coaching. He was also never prepared to even consider Wilson as anything other than a full-back daring not to risk him in the more dangerous "middle" areas of the pitch. Clearly not signing a centre half is a mistake. How severe a mistake we won't know until the end of the season. Wherever we finish, you can safely say that we would have finished with a considerably higher points total than we will gather and a higher league position. Whatever positives we achieve will be despite our back 4 and not because of it. Same as I've said a long long time ago Wilson at left back or not at all and yet all I see is him getting played in central defence. You never know, maybe being switched on in the week and leading up to training might help them perform/understand each other better.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 1, 2014 17:31:11 GMT
Heaven help us indeed. Pulis couldn't get a tune out of Cameron at right back either and he is a master of defensive coaching. He was also never prepared to even consider Wilson as anything other than a full-back daring not to risk him in the more dangerous "middle" areas of the pitch. Clearly not signing a centre half is a mistake. How severe a mistake we won't know until the end of the season. Wherever we finish, you can safely say that we would have finished with a considerably higher points total than we will gather and a higher league position. Whatever positives we achieve will be despite our back 4 and not because of it. Same as I've said a long long time ago Wilson at left back or not at all and yet all I see is him getting played in central defence. You never know, maybe being switched on in the week and leading up to training might help them perform/understand each other better. Being switched on won't stop him being a wank centre half. He is what he is!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 17:31:50 GMT
I criticised Moses in exactly the same way mate. Flick back through my posts if you like, it's all there. I said several times it was completely unacceptable. To add some balance too, I've defended Arnie plenty of times on here over the past few months. Some are too quick to jump on his back. I'll defend him to the hilt when it comes to his form as I believe it's only a matter of time before he gets back to his best. What he did against Liverpool though, and what Moses did against West Ham, wasn't poor form or bad defending - it was just blatant dereliction of duty and responsibility. As Trouserdog rightly said, we can't carry that within our ranks. Hopefully it was just a one off for both the players in question. Flick through your posts? I'm bored enough reading your current posts without having to trawl back through previous ones! Fuck me, I have a life you know. Talking of which, I've got to go and pick up a business associate from Manchester Piccadilly station now so I'll see you back here on Wednesday! Of course you wouldn't do that, it'd show your post up as complete horse shit. Malcolm has already made you look a complete arse today. Once is more than enough I'd imagine Safe journey kid.
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Post by tazi on Dec 1, 2014 17:38:48 GMT
Same as I've said a long long time ago Wilson at left back or not at all and yet all I see is him getting played in central defence. You never know, maybe being switched on in the week and leading up to training might help them perform/understand each other better. Being switched on won't stop him being a wank centre half. He is what he is! But I'm not saying he should be a centre half i'm saying full back or not at all or same as I've said back up for full back at most. Seems a bit of a strange one regards Cameron, personally I think he's poor and I wonder if he was actually a Pulis signing because if he was then surely he would have seen something in him to work on considering that he's thought of as a defensive maestro. As to hearing Ryan's comments then it's not exactly a good preperation to give one the best chance of performing to the best of your ability even if that ability is limited.
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Post by jezzascfc on Dec 1, 2014 18:40:53 GMT
Pulis was right about Wilson - he is a full back, if anything (so cover for Bardsley and Pieters). He should be 4th choice CB, behind Huth (please get fit soon!) and Muniesa.
Likewise Cameron should be considered a box to box midfielder (ie SNZ's cover), which makes the best use of his athleticism.
Too much jack of all trades, master of none, about the pair of them.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Dec 2, 2014 0:47:09 GMT
what did Ings say to you, ? He was telling me how Burnley's plan was to isolate Shawcross from the game and "miss him out" wherever possible. If they had to engage him, the aim was to engage him in the full-back areas or drag him out of the middle. Both goals came from exactly that ploy. The opposition know our weaknesses and it is being exposed weekly. Liverpool did exactly the same on Saturday. The one time they managed to drag Shawcross out of the game, they scored. Chris Kamara mentioned the very same thing when analysing the Liverpool goal on Goals on Sunday. that could be interpreted as Ryan being the weak link
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 2, 2014 7:06:40 GMT
If Huth ever gets fully fit again, I'm not sure Hughes would see him as a part of his number one pairing anyhow. He doesn't really fit in with the way we (over) play at the back anymore.
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Post by Davef on Dec 2, 2014 8:28:58 GMT
He was telling me how Burnley's plan was to isolate Shawcross from the game and "miss him out" wherever possible. If they had to engage him, the aim was to engage him in the full-back areas or drag him out of the middle. Both goals came from exactly that ploy. The opposition know our weaknesses and it is being exposed weekly. Liverpool did exactly the same on Saturday. The one time they managed to drag Shawcross out of the game, they scored. Chris Kamara mentioned the very same thing when analysing the Liverpool goal on Goals on Sunday. that could be interpreted as Ryan being the weak link Or our best defender.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 2, 2014 8:39:04 GMT
Ings is talking a load of fat sweaty bollocks anyway. Both goals came from piss poor, lackadaisical Stoke play rather than any successful Burnley ploy.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 2, 2014 15:52:13 GMT
He was telling me how Burnley's plan was to isolate Shawcross from the game and "miss him out" wherever possible. If they had to engage him, the aim was to engage him in the full-back areas or drag him out of the middle. Both goals came from exactly that ploy. The opposition know our weaknesses and it is being exposed weekly. Liverpool did exactly the same on Saturday. The one time they managed to drag Shawcross out of the game, they scored. Chris Kamara mentioned the very same thing when analysing the Liverpool goal on Goals on Sunday. that could be interpreted as Ryan being the weak link It was meant as Stoke have only got one player who can defend so lets try to develop play in areas he cant cover. I'm sure you knew that though!
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 2, 2014 15:53:40 GMT
If Huth ever gets fully fit again, I'm not sure Hughes would see him as a part of his number one pairing anyhow. He doesn't really fit in with the way we (over) play at the back anymore. If huth was fully fit and Hughes persisted with Wilson instead he would get slaughtered and rightly so.
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Post by jimmygscfc on Dec 2, 2014 16:29:09 GMT
'…...training with a back 4 with a rope tied around each of their waists, the plan being to get them moving in unison, keeping a proper line, and not being pulled all over the place.'
There, in a nutshell, is the answer to our problems.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 2, 2014 17:21:33 GMT
'…...training with a back 4 with a rope tied around each of their waists, the plan being to get them moving in unison, keeping a proper line, and not being pulled all over the place.' There, in a nutshell, is the answer to our problems. An impossible ask with the current make up of our back 4 in my opinion
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