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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 1, 2014 23:20:34 GMT
OK. I have had lengthy dialogue since arriving home with regard to the goals conceded today having not seen them anywhere other than in the ground and I thought criticism was harsh.
I still think it is harsh but in the spirit of continuous improvement, you have to look at these things.
Their 1st - First of all MOTD pundits are a fucking disgrace. That is a red card challenge all day long and had it been a "big" club on the receiving end they would have been apoplectic with rage. Just because Diouf jumped out of the way, doesn't mean it wasn't a foul. It was a foul and it was a red card and in all my years of watching football I have never seen an advantage played from a red card challenge.
Anyhow, having let play continue, once again we are witness to a catalogue of errors, starting with Moses getting his legs in a knot and not knowing whether to run with the ball, pass it and doing neither. Then we have Wilson (again) with a pathetic piece of defending and then we have Bojan who should have chopped Downing down and taken a card for the team.
From that point, it is a great cross and I can understand why Geoff got sucked in. Of all the fingers pointed so far, it shouldn't be in his direction on this occasion. Moses and Wilson were the two most culpable.
Their 2nd - What a goal to give away and the main culprit is obviously Moses who has abandoned his defensive responsibilities and stood and watched Downing. However, if we are honest, once again, Begovic could and should have done better and I think his immediate reaction to the goal proves that.
HOWEVER, I still maintain that you can't legislate for an utterly ridiculous decision from the referee. If he gives the foul and the card, we don't concede and we go on to win 4 or 5.
Do we have concerns with our defence? Absolutely yes. Wilson is a liability and is heavily involved again today yet Huth is still out and Muniesa has struggled with an injury all season long.
Do we miss too many chances? Absolutely but our new centre forward now has 4 goals from 5 starts playing down the middle and 4 from 9 starts in total which isn't too shabby.
Do we waste too many good situations? Again, absolutely. We too often choose the wrong options and don't even get a shot away when in reality, other teams would score (evidenced in full glory on Wednesday night).
All of these things are concerns but today, the focus of the discussion should be on how well we played, how positive we were, how every player contributed effectively for long periods and how the referee ultimately shafted us by bottling the only real decision he had to make in the game.
If Huth doesn't recover, we need a centre half in January. As a temporary measure, if we can get him, I would go for Distin who isn't playing and is exactly the sort of quick, commanding centre half who would do us just nicely for a season and a half. He's also left sided so a perfect partner for Ryan.
EDIT - having watched the first goal again, Foy doesn't play advantage. There is no arm movement to indicate an advantage. He simply didn't see it as a foul which makes the decision even more fucking ridiculous.
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Post by 2004 on Nov 1, 2014 23:23:05 GMT
I agree with everything you say until you mention Distin.
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 1, 2014 23:23:40 GMT
Distin is 36.
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Post by timbo1988 on Nov 1, 2014 23:25:15 GMT
I agree Wilson massively at fault again! Hopefully Huth's calf will have recovered by the Burnley game after the internationals!
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Post by Davef on Nov 1, 2014 23:26:30 GMT
First goal, Wilson had to take the player out. He's the first player to get to the ball and he's the defender.
Second goal, Pieters can't allow the cross to come over so easily and Moses has switched off.
Top and bottom of it though, we should have been out of sight before West Ham's first goal.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 1, 2014 23:26:38 GMT
I agree with everthing you say until you mention Distin. Why? He's been one of the best players to visit the Brit every time he's played here. |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 1, 2014 23:27:08 GMT
I agree with everthing you say until you mention Distin. Why? He's been one of the best players to visit the Brit every time he's played here. He's past it Dave. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 23:27:15 GMT
spot on. Distin would be an ideal signing. The Wilson problem has got to be sorted out but overall we have to be positive. Today was our best performance so far and I can't remember too many occasions where we have created so many chances in a game in this league.
The other big positive is Bojan, and the fact we have stumbled across a front four that worked brilliantly together and created a lot of chances. Sometimes the result isn't everything and I think we are now set up to progress and do well the rest of this season. Apart from Chelsea I think there are points available for us in every game.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 1, 2014 23:27:17 GMT
and super fit hence I mention he could be perfect to see us through from January to the end of the season. |
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Post by chiefdelilah on Nov 1, 2014 23:28:34 GMT
and super fit hence I mention he could be perfect to see us through from January to the end of the season. I don't think he's quick anymore and he's been awful for Everton this season when he's played. Time finally caught up with him, was top class in his pomp. |
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Post by 2004 on Nov 1, 2014 23:29:47 GMT
I agree with everthing you say until you mention Distin. Why? He's been one of the best players to visit the Brit every time he's played here. As chief said he's past it. Having said that a past it Distin is probably better than Wilson |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 1, 2014 23:31:53 GMT
Why? He's been one of the best players to visit the Brit every time he's played here. As chief said he's past it. Having said that a past it Distin is probably better than Wilson I haven't seen a single Everton game this season and will have to presume you have. If not Distin, then we need to find someone else and ASAP in January be it as a stop gap or a permanent arrival for a number of years. |
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Post by blackpoolred on Nov 2, 2014 0:06:37 GMT
I don't think we can start blaming the ref: Whether he let play go or not Moses pass was so bad it beggared belief, the events after were just plain awful defending right down to Bego who seemed to dive out the way of it - should of stayed on his feet and spread his body like schmeichel.
The second goal was woeful, my 10 year old football team defend better than that - a professional footballer stood ball watching in the box like a statue is just incomprehensible at this standard and bego had weak hands also.
Worrying times at the moment, we looked good going forward and took some chances today, 2 goals should be enough to beat West Ham, that said they had 2 shots on target and they both went in - which probably sums our season up at the moment.
I still have not got over conceding 3 goals to a Sunderland side who had not won a match and couldn't score on brothel prior to facing us.
Sorry but watched too many Stoke teams over the last 40 odd years that have played some good football, but have been unable to defend and see matches out.
Long way to go though and lots to work on in the training ground
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Post by march4 on Nov 2, 2014 0:11:40 GMT
Tomkins isn't a regular at WHam. He is a decent defender.
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Post by MrMagic on Nov 2, 2014 0:15:56 GMT
Tomkins isn't a regular at WHam. He is a decent defender. A player I've always rated However I don't think either goal today was down to the favourite boo boy Wilson so I think the gun is being jumped a little here |
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Post by sufolkstokie on Nov 2, 2014 0:15:53 GMT
Tomkins isn't a regular at WHam. He is a decent defender. Reid apparently refuses to sign a new contract, so Tomkins is their back up/becoming their first choice with Winston off to ARsenal according to my Hammers neighbour |
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Post by mickstupp on Nov 2, 2014 0:30:50 GMT
As chief said he's past it. Having said that a past it Distin is probably better than Wilson I haven't seen a single Everton game this season and will have to presume you have. If not Distin, then we need to find someone else and ASAP in January be it as a stop gap or a permanent arrival for a number of years. We should have signed Lescott |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 0:36:45 GMT
I haven't seen a single Everton game this season and will have to presume you have. If not Distin, then we need to find someone else and ASAP in January be it as a stop gap or a permanent arrival for a number of years. We should have signed Lescott Would have been perfect, said it at the time. Him and Shawcross would be a real balanced partnership... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 1:26:14 GMT
I agree we should have signed Lescott, or at least tried to. More or less agree with the opening post though.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 2, 2014 1:31:38 GMT
Top post dave, sums the entire situation up perfectly. Won't stop some people from blaming Cameron, inexplicably, but nice to see some rational thinkers around here.
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Post by mywaydesolzan on Nov 2, 2014 4:34:07 GMT
I don't think we can start blaming the ref: Whether he let play go or not Moses pass was so bad it beggared belief, the events after were just plain awful defending right down to Bego who seemed to dive out the way of it - should of stayed on his feet and spread his body like schmeichel. The second goal was woeful, my 10 year old football team defend better than that - a professional footballer stood ball watching in the box like a statue is just incomprehensible at this standard and bego had weak hands also. Worrying times at the moment, we looked good going forward and took some chances today, 2 goals should be enough to beat West Ham, that said they had 2 shots on target and they both went in - which probably sums our season up at the moment. I still have not got over conceding 3 goals to a Sunderland side who had not won a match and couldn't score on brothel prior to facing us. Sorry but watched too many Stoke teams over the last 40 odd years that have played some good football, but have been unable to defend and see matches out. Long way to go though and lots to work on in the training ground As good as Moses was first half he was very weak in the second. Poor decision making, especially when he should have put Diouf in on goal, and as you have alluded to was at fault for both of their goals. Don't know whether he is still carrying a knock, or just not up to the fitness levels required to compete for the full 90 minutes. |
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Post by pedro23 on Nov 2, 2014 5:12:05 GMT
Here's how I saw it. Overall I thought we played very well but lost the points because of the following;
Missed chances-most teams who have scored against us are scoring from 1 out 1, or 1 out of 2 chances created, whereas we are scoring from 1 out of 5
Victor Moses 2nd half, gave a simple 10 yard pass away to the opposition setting then up for a counter attack, and was ball watching in the penalty area when Dowling moved past him.
Wilson got turned on the half way line, we should still have had sufficient defensive cover to stop a goal being scored.This points to a lack of understanding in our back four. A back four who are doing well restricting chances being created but look shaky defending set pieces. If they can't sort that out on the training Ground, then the personnel need to be changed.
The Ref should have carded Song,the fact that he didn't and also didn't make a play on gesture indicates to me that he thought there was no foul, so the playing advantage argument is pointless. His mistake was not thinking it was a foul. Trying to avoid any agendas that is what I saw.
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Post by padders01 on Nov 2, 2014 6:54:31 GMT
Tomkins isn't a regular at WHam. He is a decent defender. A player I've always rated However I don't think either goal today was down to the favourite boo boy Wilson so I think the gun is being jumped a little here Surely the centre half shouldnt get turned on the half way line like Wikson did for the first goal? Far too tight and when he gets done he has to take Downing out. Poor defending to push that far up the pitch and not win the ball or take the player out. Very naive |
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Post by trigger on Nov 2, 2014 7:16:40 GMT
One for the stattos out there, just how many goals have we conceded from our left hand side, obviously one yesterday and Southampton on Wednesday. Pieters far to easily leaves the wide player in favour of getting himself in the box.
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Post by jeycov on Nov 2, 2014 7:38:16 GMT
OK. I have had lengthy dialogue since arriving home with regard to the goals conceded today having not seen them anywhere other than in the ground and I thought criticism was harsh. I still think it is harsh but in the spirit of continuous improvement, you have to look at these things. Their 1st - First of all MOTD pundits are a fucking disgrace. That is a red card challenge all day long and had it been a "big" club on the receiving end they would have been apoplectic with rage. Just because Diouf jumped out of the way, doesn't mean it wasn't a foul. It was a foul and it was a red card and in all my years of watching football I have never seen an advantage played from a red card challenge. Anyhow, having let play continue, once again we are witness to a catalogue of errors, starting with Moses getting his legs in a knot and not knowing whether to run with the ball, pass it and doing neither. Then we have Wilson (again) with a pathetic piece of defending and then we have Bojan who should have chopped Downing down and taken a card for the team. From that point, it is a great cross and I can understand why Geoff got sucked in. Of all the fingers pointed so far, it shouldn't be in his direction on this occasion. Moses and Wilson were the two most culpable. Their 2nd - What a goal to give away and the main culprit is obviously Moses who has abandoned his defensive responsibilities and stood and watched Downing. However, if we are honest, once again, Begovic could and should have done better and I think his immediate reaction to the goal proves that. HOWEVER, I still maintain that you can't legislate for an utterly ridiculous decision from the referee. If he gives the foul and the card, we don't concede and we go on to win 4 or 5. Do we have concerns with our defence? Absolutely yes. Wilson is a liability and is heavily involved again today yet Huth is still out and Muniesa has struggled with an injury all season long. Do we miss too many chances? Absolutely but our new centre forward now has 4 goals from 5 starts playing down the middle and 4 from 9 starts in total which isn't too shabby. Do we waste too many good situations? Again, absolutely. We too often choose the wrong options and don't even get a shot away when in reality, other teams would score (evidenced in full glory on Wednesday night). All of these things are concerns but today, the focus of the discussion should be on how well we played, how positive we were, how every player contributed effectively for long periods and how the referee ultimately shafted us by bottling the only real decision he had to make in the game. If Huth doesn't recover, we need a centre half in January. As a temporary measure, if we can get him, I would go for Distin who isn't playing and is exactly the sort of quick, commanding centre half who would do us just nicely for a season and a half. He's also left sided so a perfect partner for Ryan. EDIT - having watched the first goal again, Foy doesn't play advantage. There is no arm movement to indicate an advantage. He simply didn't see it as a foul which makes the decision even more fucking ridiculous. If Foy and his officials missed the challenge (maybe because Diouf stayed on his feet), then retrospective red is a possibility -not much good to us right now however |
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Post by stokiedan17 on Nov 2, 2014 7:46:23 GMT
I personally think that this witch hunt for Ryan is detrimental to our team. They're taking our best defender off of man marking. And making him basically watch the game from a corner or set piece. Too many times last night I saw him having to stand there and not know what to do really at the set piece because it looks like he feels that if her even touches a player they are going down and he's giving away a penalty.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Nov 2, 2014 11:07:20 GMT
I think we hve to improve in both boxes , we do not defend well as a team at times and need to keep working on that , we also need to work on b etter finishing , only Odimwingie is what i consider a natural finisher and we are without him, maybe Bojan will add to our golas if he maintains the form of yesterday Diouf will get a few but looks like he will miss more but still a great bloke to have at the club . We are a bottom half side at the moment , improve in both boxes might make us top half
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Post by kev1060 on Nov 2, 2014 12:46:07 GMT
Can't disagree with anything in this post.
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Post by tuum on Nov 2, 2014 12:57:39 GMT
Just watched it again and noticed Bojan pointing at Downing for a good 5 secs warning Moses that he was there and needed marking. Unfortunately, when Moses failed to react neither did Bojan. Can't remember from the replay whether Bojan was trotting off upfield in expectation of the next attack or whether he was facing play and clearly saw Moses had not heeded his advice.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 20:47:59 GMT
just seen distin handle a 1 on 1 well enough with Origi, the young lad Liverpool signed in the summer - who is just about one of the quickest players around Distin is one of the few, if not the only defender I've seen handle Riccy Fuller, so would be worth a move for me in January if Huth is still having problems |
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