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Post by siggy on Aug 25, 2014 10:43:38 GMT
I don't think anyone has put in a performance so far - everyone is still on break mode.
We just needed one or two players just to play as they can and we would have 6 points now not 1. Yeah we were lucky to get one yesterday but there were opportunities and like I say our strikers need to start playing.
The Villa game their defenders played like the game was one of their relegation games from last season and Hull just wanted to get 6 early points. In both games we never got going but in the Hull one we would have scored again if we had another 10mins play. Both Villa and Hull played us with last season in mind. Bruce knew what we would do and we didn't up our game. Villa wanted revenge for last season and we just let them do us. Hull either are not going to bother with the Europa or it hasn't hit them much yet.
Bego could have saved both goals,defending has been woeful, Nzonzi won't start playing till the others do, Marco has got the wrong boots, and Bojan and Diouf need to find the net.
The plusses (and theres not many) Wingie seems to get most of his crosses, some of Boyan's passes are sublime and we still created more chances than we ever did with TP.
I think not signing assaidi was a blow, those two games were crying out for what he did last season, lets hope Moses can show us a path instead. A loss on Sat won't be the end of the world except for a few on here, a point will be brilliant and a win a miracle, lets hope the players step up to it because a meltdown would be bad.
What we need is everyone to start the season again and a good 3-0 win somewhere soon
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Aug 25, 2014 10:47:31 GMT
I agree with Rossi that we can't expect miracles overnight. But to completely chance our forward line is a bit naive from Hughes. Really we should be starting one or both of Crouch and Walters, we need to integrate players slowly with players who already have a understanding. Right now I think Crouch/Wingie/Walters should be starting up top with Walters/Wingie out wide. Come on Fortress surely our days of using Walters are long gone...he's awful!
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Post by foxysgloves on Aug 25, 2014 10:49:29 GMT
Apologies but.....what an absolute steaming pile of horse shit. Utterly embarrassing. No its not embarrassing,The team in the last few months of last season was,at the moment better than the team we are seeing this season. Not to say it will remain worse but at the moment it certainly is. I wonder sometimes how long some posters have been watching football. Teams go in and out of form. New players take time to bed in. At this level to start passing judgment on players after two games is frankly ridiculous. Some of the posts on here (eg. Opening post) are knicker wetting flouncing of the highest order with more knee jerks than a goose-stepping SS battalion. As I said its embarrassing, unless the OP is a thirteen year old girl in which case I'll let them off.
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Post by redwhite on Aug 25, 2014 10:54:16 GMT
How come nobody is highlighting how poor Nzonzi has been in both games, is it not just a coincidence that every game zonz has a lazy day he struggle, he needs to either buck his ideas up or get dropped for someone who can add tempo to the team, as that's what we are missing more than anything Strange that he was MOTM against Villa then. Leave your agenda out of it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 25, 2014 11:08:18 GMT
Here's the way I see it. Diouf I think it's quite clear that he's not the target man that we've been so used to seeing at Stoke in recent years. Pumping the ball up to him and hoping it sticks isn't going to work. What I have noticed, watching him closely, is that he seems more keen to try and turn and sprint away from defenders rather than simply holding it up and laying it off. I am a bit worried about his lack of first touch and close control, but he does seem very keen to make runs in behind and is always looking to play on the last shoulder, making moves so that he can get in behind. I think this is his main strength and something that we need to adapt to get the best out of him. to be fair to him, he's had pretty much no service as the ball has spent far too much time being passed in a triangle between Shawcross, Wilson and Whelan. When the ball has got to the edge of the box, it's come back inside again only for Nznozi to pass it sideways. Granted, Diouf has looked far from impressive, but he needs quicker earlier balls into his path to RUN ON TO, not passes into him to hold it up and lay it back to be passed sideways again. Bojan I think he's looked neat and tidy so far. He played a lovely through ball to Crouch in the second half yesterday, where Crouch chose the wrong option. (Again, Diouf was in space but the ball wasn't played to him). Albeit when it did ricochet to him, he made the wrong decision. Bojan's first touch is excellent (which clearly comes from NOT having time on the ball as opposed to having all the time in the world. You don't develop a good first touch otherwise) as is his movement but he's the sort of player again though that needs quality movement alongside him. He'll often look for a quick one two only for the ball not to come back to him, slowing the move down. Although Tom Huddlestone (who is about 6"3 and 15 stone and would out muscle most players) brushed passed Bojan perhaps a little bit too easily for their goal, I don't see Bojan's lack of physical presence being a massive issue at all. I know he's not in the same class, but David Silva has hardly bulked up since his move to Man City and consistently looks one of the best players in the league. With Diouf and Bojan, it's not so much their inability to adapt or to get up to the standard of the Premier League, it's the lack of pace and speed of thought around them. We have got to move the ball quicker and get it forward quicker. We were doing just that at the back-end of last season and looked a quality side. Is it maybe any wonder Crouch has looked our most effective player so far? Crouch is loving standing there, not particularly having to move as we ping the ball up to him, then move it around slowly as he trots back into position. We have been so lethargic in the opening two games and we're not going to break anyone down playing in that manner. The new signings need time but to single them out as the weak links when our 'regulars' have been so abject (Arnautovic, Whelan, Nznozi) is unfair.
Very, very good post - agree with it all.
I think it was the wrong to play N'Zonzi in the hole and that decision contributed to our lack of movement in midfield, it was if Hughes had over reacted to the Villa game and wanted all three of Whelan, Sidwell and N'Zonzi in there - it didn't work.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Aug 25, 2014 11:14:44 GMT
I'll say it again...I thought N'zonzi was very good yesterday and fought the midfield battle on his own against 2 good players in Huddlestone and Livermore.
When he played in the advanced midfield position, we dominated the game and created several "situations". He possibly should have scored himself with a header which he failed to connect with.
Sidwell and Whelan didn't help him at all. Both were poor perhaps explained by Sidwell's pre-season injury and Whelan's injury going into yesterdays game.
Unfair to single out N'zonzi yesterday. Others were far more culpable.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 25, 2014 11:19:10 GMT
I'll say it again...I thought N'zonzi was very good yesterday and fought the midfield battle on his own against 2 good players in Huddlestone and Livermore. When he played in the advanced midfield position, we dominated the game and created several "situations". He possibly should have scored himself with a header which he failed to connect with. Sidwell and Whelan didn't help him at all. Both were poor perhaps explained by Sidwell's pre-season injury and Whelan's injury going into yesterdays game. Unfair to single out N'zonzi yesterday. Others were far more culpable.
Not singling him out at all, I was making the point that you don't need all three of them in the midfield together and N'Zonzi is better playing in his normal position than he is in the hole.
Bojan was miles better playing in that position in the second half imo.
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 25, 2014 11:22:53 GMT
I'll say it again...I thought N'zonzi was very good yesterday and fought the midfield battle on his own against 2 good players in Huddlestone and Livermore. When he played in the advanced midfield position, we dominated the game and created several "situations". He possibly should have scored himself with a header which he failed to connect with. Sidwell and Whelan didn't help him at all. Both were poor perhaps explained by Sidwell's pre-season injury and Whelan's injury going into yesterdays game. Unfair to single out N'zonzi yesterday. Others were far more culpable.
Not singling him out at all, I was making the point that you don't need all three of them in the midfield together and N'Zonzi is better playing in his normal position than he is in the hole.
Bojan was miles better playing in that position in the second half imo.
Absolutely. We need someone with a bit of spark and invention in that role- a cheeky little imp like Bojan or Ireland not someone who, for all his qualities, gets a nosebleed whenever he goes over the halfway line.
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Post by slpmarc on Aug 25, 2014 12:11:18 GMT
How come nobody is highlighting how poor Nzonzi has been in both games, is it not just a coincidence that every game zonz has a lazy day he struggle, he needs to either buck his ideas up or get dropped for someone who can add tempo to the team, as that's what we are missing more than anything Strange that he was MOTM against Villa then. Leave your agenda out of it. Anyone could of got MOTM v villa nobody showed anything to warrant the accolade. No agenda against Nzonzi just think he slows the play to much and allows the defence to re group so when ball is played to forward four players they have to get through 10 men to get a shot away, playing someone with more tempo to his play, we just might be able get it though the pitch to the attackers with at least some of the opposition Infront of play giving us more of a chance to break through, it was the same last year and not just basing this opinion on the last 2 games, when Nzonzi plays well and pushes forward we more than often win the game, but how many times have all said that Steven has had an off game and plays to slow.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 25, 2014 12:12:56 GMT
Bojan put some very dangerous balls in yesterday, one of which lead to the goal. Just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 12:14:44 GMT
Our best away performance last year was with Nzonzi further forward of Whelan and Palacios.
There was no evidence to suggest it wouldn't work again with a supposed better player in Sidwell, alongside Whelan rather than Palacios.
I don't think we should bin off the idea completely. It's worth trying again.
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Post by cousindupree on Aug 25, 2014 12:30:17 GMT
I like the look of Bojan and think he is an upgrade on Ireland.Not sure if both can start the danger is Hughes love of Ireland might cloud his judgement. Diouf....i understand hes very different to recent target men and he's more like Fuller without the skills.I hope he improves as he was a very important signing for us. He's not the answer to getting us more goals though.He's had 2 free headers and neither has been remotely on target....thats a big worry. Lack of goals hasnt been addressed and we start games with 2 players on the bench who contributed 20 goals last season and many on here want both of them gone. without Crouch and Adam i would love someone to persuade me that any of the starting eleven from yesterday will get anywhere near to 10 goals this season
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Post by stokemanusa on Aug 25, 2014 12:30:42 GMT
I'll say it again...I thought N'zonzi was very good yesterday and fought the midfield battle on his own against 2 good players in Huddlestone and Livermore. When he played in the advanced midfield position, we dominated the game and created several "situations". He possibly should have scored himself with a header which he failed to connect with. Sidwell and Whelan didn't help him at all. Both were poor perhaps explained by Sidwell's pre-season injury and Whelan's injury going into yesterdays game. Unfair to single out N'zonzi yesterday. Others were far more culpable. I agree, Whelan and Sidwell are anything but 'off the ball movers' aswell... We dont move the ball from the back to the front fast enough like we did with Cameron and PO working in overlap aswell add in a lazy midfield and wham two shite games.
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Post by sportsman on Aug 25, 2014 12:45:08 GMT
How come nobody is highlighting how poor Nzonzi has been in both games, is it not just a coincidence that every game zonz has a lazy day he struggle, he needs to either buck his ideas up or get dropped for someone who can add tempo to the team, as that's what we are missing more than anything I'd sell him this week. Trouble is no bugger wants him. He is really holding us back. Midfielders should be demanding the ball off the defence. The only one I've seen do that is bojan.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 12:49:13 GMT
How come nobody is highlighting how poor Nzonzi has been in both games, is it not just a coincidence that every game zonz has a lazy day he struggle, he needs to either buck his ideas up or get dropped for someone who can add tempo to the team, as that's what we are missing more than anything I'd sell him this week. Trouble is no bugger wants him. He is really holding us back. Midfielders should be demanding the ball off the defence. The only one I've seen do that is bojan. N'Zonzi is holding us back?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 25, 2014 12:50:15 GMT
Our best away performance last year was with Nzonzi further forward of Whelan and Palacios. There was no evidence to suggest it wouldn't work again with a supposed better player in Sidwell, alongside Whelan rather than Palacios. I don't think we should bin off the idea completely. It's worth trying again.
If you had the chance to play yesterday's game again, would you go with Bojan or N'Zonzi in there?
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Post by silverdollar on Aug 25, 2014 12:53:49 GMT
Bojan is a very difficult player to integrate in a team as he has no clear position. Now I want to put forth a question which requires an honest answer - would we have bought him if he had say 7 million price tag on his head ? I believe the answer is NO fir the very simple reason that what we needed was not a bojan type player. But on a free we couldn't resist. The point remains that we need a good central midfielder capable of dominating play; a good CF who can bang in 12 - 15 goals per season; possibly a CB capable of playing the ball as well as defending, suitable to the new style of play. We haven't bought any of the 3 coz we just chased freebies this summer The number of people who do not understand the process of what is called a "Free Transfer" astounds me. All the time people think that Stoke are having to pay nothing for a player but it is far from the truth especially with good players who will demand a high signing on fee and the wages are also going to be high. It is foolish to think that we are not having to commit large amounts of money to these type of signings.
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Post by slpmarc on Aug 25, 2014 12:56:46 GMT
Bojan is a very difficult player to integrate in a team as he has no clear position. Now I want to put forth a question which requires an honest answer - would we have bought him if he had say 7 million price tag on his head ? I believe the answer is NO fir the very simple reason that what we needed was not a bojan type player. But on a free we couldn't resist. The point remains that we need a good central midfielder capable of dominating play; a good CF who can bang in 12 - 15 goals per season; possibly a CB capable of playing the ball as well as defending, suitable to the new style of play. We haven't bought any of the 3 coz we just chased freebies this summer The number of people who do not understand the process of what is called a "Free Transfer" astounds me. All the time people think that Stoke are having to pay nothing for a player but it is far from the truth especially with good players who will demand a high signing on fee and the wages are also going to be high. It is foolish to think that we are not having to commit large amounts of money to these type of signings. Blame computer games
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 12:57:11 GMT
Our best away performance last year was with Nzonzi further forward of Whelan and Palacios. There was no evidence to suggest it wouldn't work again with a supposed better player in Sidwell, alongside Whelan rather than Palacios. I don't think we should bin off the idea completely. It's worth trying again.
If you had the chance to play yesterday's game again, would you go with Bojan or N'Zonzi in there?
I predicted that line up from front to back and i'd do the same again given how Hull set up with a flat midfield three and Tom Ince in the hole. We needed that solid base given Hull had up to 6 men in midfield counting the wing backs and Ince. To be fair to Hughes he made the change after the sending off and it was the right move, just the wrong player off. Sidwell should have gone. Bojan should and will play against sides that mirror our 4 2 3 1 system (or any other system that has a flat 2 in there), where he will get more space.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 12:58:09 GMT
The number of people who do not understand the process of what is called a "Free Transfer" astounds me. All the time people think that Stoke are having to pay nothing for a player but it is far from the truth especially with good players who will demand a high signing on fee and the wages are also going to be high. It is foolish to think that we are not having to commit large amounts of money to these type of signings. Blame computer games Even Football Manager takes a chunk out of your budget for freebies. Nice try...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 25, 2014 12:59:23 GMT
If you had the chance to play yesterday's game again, would you go with Bojan or N'Zonzi in there?
I predicted that line up from front to back and i'd do the same again given how Hull set up with a flat midfield three and Tom Ince in the hole. We needed that solid base given Hull had up to 6 men in midfield counting the wing backs and Ince. To be fair to Hughes he made the change after the sending off and it was the right move, just the wrong player off. Sidwell should have gone. Bojan should and will play against sides that mirror our 4 2 3 1 system (or any other system that has a flat 2 in there), where he will get more space.
That's a really good answer mate.
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Post by slpmarc on Aug 25, 2014 13:02:54 GMT
Even Football Manager takes a chunk out of your budget for freebies. Nice try... Try rubbish computer games
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Post by sportsman on Aug 25, 2014 13:05:19 GMT
I'd sell him this week. Trouble is no bugger wants him. He is really holding us back. Midfielders should be demanding the ball off the defence. The only one I've seen do that is bojan. N'Zonzi is holding us back? I say he's holding us back because wherever he plays in midfield he's just anonymous. If he sits and holds he slows us up with whelan with square passes. If he plays off the front like yesterday, he didn't play a through ball to the front players, and didn't have a shot. Adam came on and within a minute was shooting from 30 yards. What does he do? What is his role? Because his name is nzonzi he gets overlooked. Because his name sounds good for some I think. If his name was bert trufflebum he would be getting pelters by more than just a handful of us on here who are looking beyond a name. The newspapers I've read this morning agree. Nzonzi and whelan have both been described as holding onto the ball for too long rather playing a searching pass. midfield dynamo!
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Post by iglugluk on Aug 25, 2014 13:05:23 GMT
What absolute fucking rubbish. Diouf made some good runs, but he received next to no decent service, so what do you expect? It is his SECOND competitive start for us, he needs a bit of time to gel with his team mates and they need time to get in tune with him, all is nonsense, judging him after two games is pathetic and highly embarrassing, did you learn nothing from the Arnie situation last season??? The difference being that it was still obvious that Arnie had some ability (it's all in the first touch) despite making poor decisions and being on a completely different wavelength to his team mates. There was always the potential there for him to come good. Diouf looks like a poor footballer. At present, the only argument for us to stick with him is blind faith. Having seen Mark Hughes as a manager all last season, I would say that giving Diouf more than the first 2 games of the season to prove his worth is only sensible. Hughes quite obviously had been chasing Diouf for the last year and given that fact he sees a player who's worth having. I very much doubt that MH operates on a system of blind faith ( in fact it clearly obvious that he doesn't ), so that may be relevant for us as supporters but for the time being it is more relevant to keep faith with the manager and his judgement. For me Diouf looked better yesterday ( not good mind ) than he did against Villa and given his goal scoring record in Germany he quite clearly knows where the goal is.
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Post by Old School Stokie on Aug 25, 2014 13:06:41 GMT
Hull immediately went 4 4 1 after sending off and yet We stuck with a back 4. Should have gone for back 3, left Whelan on and brought Bojan on for a defender. Mindless, lucky to have a point and after Saturday bottom of league.
We should be better than this and it seems they were not motivated against two "lower" teams. Saturday we may play a great deal better being motivated to beat the Champions, but as they will be too strong we will end up with nothing. They were all poor crossing, passing, shooting tackling so you can't have a go at any one player.
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Post by mattface on Aug 25, 2014 13:08:02 GMT
It's going to take time to completely evolve from our neanderthalithic past. Wish everyone would chill the fuck out. Indeed. Yes the first two games have been woeful, but to go writing off talented players is so OTT. Give Diouf the right service and he'll score goals. The only time he had that the ref incorrectly ruled against him. Roll on Man City say I
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 13:17:32 GMT
I predicted that line up from front to back and i'd do the same again given how Hull set up with a flat midfield three and Tom Ince in the hole. We needed that solid base given Hull had up to 6 men in midfield counting the wing backs and Ince. To be fair to Hughes he made the change after the sending off and it was the right move, just the wrong player off. Sidwell should have gone. Bojan should and will play against sides that mirror our 4 2 3 1 system (or any other system that has a flat 2 in there), where he will get more space.
That's a really good answer mate.
I do get some things right. It might be on a full moon or a day where we get no clouds between 6 and 6 but it's better than nowt. ;D
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Post by Trouserdog on Aug 25, 2014 14:53:55 GMT
The difference being that it was still obvious that Arnie had some ability (it's all in the first touch) despite making poor decisions and being on a completely different wavelength to his team mates. There was always the potential there for him to come good. Diouf looks like a poor footballer. At present, the only argument for us to stick with him is blind faith. Having seen Mark Hughes as a manager all last season, I would say that giving Diouf more than the first 2 games of the season to prove his worth is only sensible. Hughes quite obviously had been chasing Diouf for the last year and given that fact he sees a player who's worth having. I very much doubt that MH operates on a system of blind faith ( in fact it clearly obvious that he doesn't ), so that may be relevant for us as supporters but for the time being it is more relevant to keep faith with the manager and his judgement. For me Diouf looked better yesterday ( not good mind ) than he did against Villa and given his goal scoring record in Germany he quite clearly knows where the goal is. Fair comment really. I trust Hughes to do the right thing, as he proved last season that his team selections are always based on merit rather than favouritism. In the high pressure world of the Premiership he knows he can't afford to stick with a player who isn't up to it, so let's hope he was right to chase Diouf for so long.
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Post by iglugluk on Aug 25, 2014 16:37:36 GMT
Having seen Mark Hughes as a manager all last season, I would say that giving Diouf more than the first 2 games of the season to prove his worth is only sensible. Hughes quite obviously had been chasing Diouf for the last year and given that fact he sees a player who's worth having. I very much doubt that MH operates on a system of blind faith ( in fact it clearly obvious that he doesn't ), so that may be relevant for us as supporters but for the time being it is more relevant to keep faith with the manager and his judgement. For me Diouf looked better yesterday ( not good mind ) than he did against Villa and given his goal scoring record in Germany he quite clearly knows where the goal is. Fair comment really. I trust Hughes to do the right thing, as he proved last season that his team selections are always based on merit rather than favouritism. In the high pressure world of the Premiership he knows he can't afford to stick with a player who isn't up to it, so let's hope he was right to chase Diouf for so long. On a related point, I would definitely agree that merit and not favouritism appear to be a guiding principle for Hughes ( unlike other past managers I can think of...nudge, nudge, wink , wink say no more squire ) but I am interested to see if this same principle is applied to Ireland and his place in the 1st team.
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Post by Kingswaystokie on Aug 25, 2014 17:52:21 GMT
Well foxysgloves, what a complete and utter load of shite you talk. No I'm not a 13 year old girl and it's blatantly obvious I have been watching football an awful lot longer than you. If you had bothered to read my earlier post in this thread you will see I have had a season ticket for around 55 years.
That performance was, as has been agreed by many others, pedestrian. 3 points were there for the taking, we failed miserably to take advantage of playing against 10 men, even Mark Hughes, who I have the greatest admiration for, admitted we were no where near our form at the end of last season.
You are obviously seriously deluded and watched the game through your rose tinted specs, grow up and smell the coffee, and go along with what the manager said " we need to be better ".
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