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Post by werrington on Aug 10, 2014 13:35:24 GMT
It's because I don't see the reasoning mate ? The facts are the facts and many are just ignoring them and seem intent to get him through the door He a game changer and a different alternative for different games instead of like for like Add his goals into the mix and it's just madness Werrers, you are wasting your breath. I KNOW you disagree agree with me and it doesn't bother me. Sorry! When you post something in praise of Adam, I don't feel the need to leap in and rubbish your post just because I disagree. We both KNOW that we have opposite opinions on Adam so why bother to keep on criticising one another's posts on the subject? I didn't know I was criticising ?.......I thought we were offering different opinions and giving our reasoning for it I apologise if that's how you have taken it as it wasn't intended
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 10, 2014 13:35:30 GMT
Seeing as though we seem to be employing three midfielders nowadays who are your starting three out of? Nzonzi Whelan Sidwell Ireland Adam All have different attributes and negatives and also all add a different dimension to our play which is good imo.Tough one as no one stands out as a definite it starter.For me its Whelan,Nzonzi and Sidwell. Interesting thing when you look at that list is if you consider the midfield 3 as two holding and one linking up front then it's always going to be Whelan and N'Zonzi as the holding pair and then take your pick from the other three for the remaining space. I guess competition for the holding midfielder places will come from our defenders; particularly Cameron and Muniesa, maybe also (but I hope not) Wilson. I agree about Wilson. Whenever I see Wilson in centre midfield I always feel that I am attending a pantomime - so great is the urge to bellow "He's behind you" at him.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 10, 2014 13:43:16 GMT
Werrers, you are wasting your breath. I KNOW you disagree agree with me and it doesn't bother me. Sorry! When you post something in praise of Adam, I don't feel the need to leap in and rubbish your post just because I disagree. We both KNOW that we have opposite opinions on Adam so why bother to keep on criticising one another's posts on the subject? I didn't know I was criticising ?.......I thought we were offering different opinions and giving our reasoning for it I apologise if that's how you have taken it as it wasn't intended OK - maybe not criticising - but it is a bit boring repeatedly arguing with the same poster over the same subject.on the same message board. If you had said your piece about Adam on this thread before I commented, I wouldn't have bothered commenting on your post because we both know where we stand as we have had the same argument so many times. I'm quite happy to say my piece when someone else says what an important cog in the wheel Adam is. Such ignorance deserves to be corrected! But when you say it, what's the point? Neither of us will ever come out with anything new on the subject so why waste time arguing with one another?
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 10, 2014 13:45:19 GMT
Interesting thing when you look at that list is if you consider the midfield 3 as two holding and one linking up front then it's always going to be Whelan and N'Zonzi as the holding pair and then take your pick from the other three for the remaining space. I guess competition for the holding midfielder places will come from our defenders; particularly Cameron and Muniesa, maybe also (but I hope not) Wilson. I agree about Wilson. Whenever I see Wilson in centre midfield I always feel that I am attending a pantomime - so great is the urge to bellow "He's behind you" at him. Norwich at hone was one of the few games I got to see last year (fortunately the other games were much better) but Wilson's display that day was about as bad as I've seen anyone play in a Stoke shirt. And it was a pantomime performance!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 14:08:14 GMT
I thought Cameron had a very good game as the holding midfielder in the world cup. I've never been a Whelan fan myself,so I'd go Cameron,Nzonzi and Ireland. Hughes won't. I'm slightly concerned at the lack of cover our 2 prospective 'wingers' will give the full backs,that's mostly because of the Bojan effect.If he plays on one side I can't see him covering back like PO does for example. I have a feeling we will concede quite a few goals until Hughes gets his system properly tuned.I just hope we score plenty
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Post by boskampsflaps on Aug 10, 2014 14:23:02 GMT
For most games I'd choose Whelan, NZonzi and Ireland. In cup games I'd like to see both Muniesa and Cameron (although possibly not at the same time) given chances to see if they can compete with Whelan and NZonzi in the holding role and the box to box roles. Although I expect Bojan and Ireland to be on the pitch at the same time, there could be times when Ireland is replaced in the "hole" with Bojan. I'd get rid of Adam, he's got a great eye for goal but I feel we lose too much shape and dynamism with him in the side. I feel he only works as an impact sub and I doubt it is a role he is content with. I just don't get all of this get rid of Adam talk LP ? He was excellent last season so are you basing it on 5 friendlies or the fact when he got suspended we just happened to go on a good run last season ? He was a contender for player of the season until he got ( wrongly ) suspended I think its very debatable that he was excelent, he scored some important goals but thats it, I just don't see what else he brings, poor decition making, cant tackle, immobile and gives the ball away in stupid are as add to that his fall and roll routine when he's run out of ideas and there's a lot wrong with him and that's leaving alone his snide little tackles\stamps\armsin face that he does. Personally I think he's overrated on here because he was something different in the Pulls years from what we are used to, but now I think we've left him behind personelle wise. Player of the season
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Post by ashleyscfc on Aug 10, 2014 14:34:44 GMT
Sidwell - Nzonzi - Bojan/Ireland -
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Post by chigstoke on Aug 10, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
As stated earlier in the thread, Whelan and Sidwell can't be directly compared, because Sidwell is a box-to-box midfielder. We'd be daft to drop either of N'Zonzi or him barring injury. The only way Whelan can be replaced is by signing a direct replacement, e.g. Stambouli. Whelan was fantastic last season, and doesn't deserve to be dropped. He will start against Villa with N'Zonzi and Ireland. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Post by lastoftheldk on Aug 10, 2014 14:41:41 GMT
Whelan, N'Zonzi, Ireland,
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 10, 2014 15:14:05 GMT
The manager's boner for Ireland concerns me a bit. He's in pole position now and no problem with that but Hughes does seem to be basing our whole approach around him and I don't think he's good enough to warrant that. Hughes has always stuck with a player until that player loses his place through injury or is dropped. Then someone else has a go. I'd rather he did that than chop and change for the sake of it. Which midfielder would you build the team shape around, Sheikh? I ask because I'd be seriously upset if we built the team around Adam. Now, we COULD, in time build the team around Bojan in the Ireland position. But we'd be daft to do so until Bojan has got used to the pace and strength of the Premier League. The most refreshing thing about Hughes is that 'your place to win', 'your place to keep' philosophy forny. It was certainly one thing that Pulis didn't practice and one I welcome. However, he didn't apply that post Adam suspension last season. Adam should have got far more game time than he did and that was writ large in his 15 minute West Brom cameo. The manager has a blind spot with Ireland in my view. As long as we win I don't mind but when one player is pivotal to the whole approach as Ireland has become and on the back of what I'd call an average season last time, I think concerns are valid.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 10, 2014 15:26:29 GMT
Hughes has always stuck with a player until that player loses his place through injury or is dropped. Then someone else has a go. I'd rather he did that than chop and change for the sake of it. Which midfielder would you build the team shape around, Sheikh? I ask because I'd be seriously upset if we built the team around Adam. Now, we COULD, in time build the team around Bojan in the Ireland position. But we'd be daft to do so until Bojan has got used to the pace and strength of the Premier League. The most refreshing thing about Hughes is that 'your place to win', 'your place to keep' philosophy forny. It was certainly one thing that Pulis didn't practice and one I welcome. However, he didn't apply that post Adam suspension last season. Adam should have got far more game time than he did and that was writ large in his 15 minute West Brom cameo. The manager has a blind spot with Ireland in my view. As long as we win I don't mind but when one player is pivotal to the whole approach as Ireland has become and on the back of what I'd call an average season last time, I think concerns are valid. Sheikh, if Adam played as a second striker, I could see his value to the side because he can score some great goals. But when TP tried him there in a 442 it just didn't work. As a midfielder, he's poison as far as I am concerned. He simply can't play in the Ireland role. So Hughes did the obvious thing and (mostly) dropped Ireland, pushed NZonzi forward and played Adam between NZonzi and Whelan and gave Adam a license to roam. In terms of Adam getting some goals (and often very valuable ones) it worked. But that was at a cost - the team lost shape and looked much less creative with Adam in the side and, of course, he can be lethal in terms of poor passing and shocking tackling. And, sadly, nothing we have seen in pre season has suggested anything has changed. Ireland immediately struck up a good rapport with Bojan as did NZonzi. Whenever Adam has been on the pitch in pre season he has never struck up the rapport with Bojan that Ireland did and he obviously hasn't practiced his passing - remember the first goal we conceded in our preseason tour of Germany? Not just a shocking pass but even I could see the danger that pass represented long before it was intercepted. Fortunately, Hughes is a sensible bloke - I can feel it in my water that he feels the same way about Adam as I do.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Aug 10, 2014 15:29:39 GMT
We need cover/replacement for Ireland. A foreign CAM after selling Adam would do fine. But like others have said, if bojan can play there great. Otherwise we are exposed if he gets injured
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Post by sheikhmomo on Aug 10, 2014 17:03:06 GMT
The most refreshing thing about Hughes is that 'your place to win', 'your place to keep' philosophy forny. It was certainly one thing that Pulis didn't practice and one I welcome. However, he didn't apply that post Adam suspension last season. Adam should have got far more game time than he did and that was writ large in his 15 minute West Brom cameo. The manager has a blind spot with Ireland in my view. As long as we win I don't mind but when one player is pivotal to the whole approach as Ireland has become and on the back of what I'd call an average season last time, I think concerns are valid. Sheikh, if Adam played as a second striker, I could see his value to the side because he can score some great goals. But when TP tried him there in a 442 it just didn't work. As a midfielder, he's poison as far as I am concerned. He simply can't play in the Ireland role. So Hughes did the obvious thing and (mostly) dropped Ireland, pushed NZonzi forward and played Adam between NZonzi and Whelan and gave Adam a license to roam. In terms of Adam getting some goals (and often very valuable ones) it worked. But that was at a cost - the team lost shape and looked much less creative with Adam in the side and, of course, he can be lethal in terms of poor passing and shocking tackling. And, sadly, nothing we have seen in pre season has suggested anything has changed. Ireland immediately struck up a good rapport with Bojan as did NZonzi. Whenever Adam has been on the pitch in pre season he has never struck up the rapport with Bojan that Ireland did and he obviously hasn't practiced his passing - remember the first goal we conceded in our preseason tour of Germany? Not just a shocking pass but even I could see the danger that pass represented long before it was intercepted. Fortunately, Hughes is a sensible bloke - I can feel it in my water that he feels the same way about Adam as I do. Manager's decision is final forny and I get the impression its an argument I'm on the wrong side of with the manager and most fans but I think that there will be many a game next season when there'll be an overwhelming need of a wild card like Adam. Even in a side with Arnautovic and Bojan I think he offers weapons that we will miss when he's gone.
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Post by fortressbritannia on Aug 10, 2014 17:03:50 GMT
You have to say that Ireland will start as the main man in behind (presumably) Diouf. While Adam is more of a match winner then Ireland, it is also his downfall. We lose a certain fluidity with Adam in the team because he's always looking for that Hollywood ball. He can be in in our own half and he'll be looking for a 25-30 yard pass even if it isn't the best option and at times it results in us losing possession/momentum. Ireland is a lot more consistent, Adam has to many games when he is the worst player on the pitch and we look worse for it.
I've said it before on here before we have got to improve our away form, as more teams are going to come to the Britannia and park the bus. We'll have to pick up 17-20 points on the road in order to finish in the top 10 again this season. I believe that playing Ireland away from home should hopefully improve our ability to score on the counter, especially with having a more mobile target man ahead of him.
With Bojan, Odemwingie and Walters along with Ireland being able to play in that attacking midfielder role, you wonder how many games Adam will get. Especially if Bojan turns out to be the player we all hope he is. In an ideal world we'd keep Adam but if can't guarantee him 25+ PL appearances you'll wonder if he'd want out and you have to say we're not short of players in his position.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 10, 2014 17:09:17 GMT
Pretty much agree with everything that Lakeland has said on this thread with regard to Adam.
Those people who want to see him in the team, just where exactly would you play him?
Prior to getting suspended, when he was (quite rightly) getting all the plaudits for his 10/10 performances he was playing instead of N'Zonzi not Ireland.
Hughes brought in Walters to play in front of him and with Whelan in there, Adam essentially had two water carriers to do the work for him, so he could have a free role to weave his magic but he wasn't playing in the hole (Walters was and he was playing a pretty deep version of it too in order to help Adam out), he was playing with much more of the pitch in front of him than Ireland does.
And there's nothing wrong with that, that is undoubtedly his best position, just like it was at Blackpool when he also had two other men in there to do the leg work for him. And because he was playing in his best position he was playing the best he had ever played in a Stoke City shirt.
However ... that position doesn't exist in a 4-2-3-1 that contains Bojan and Diouf and Ireland and Arnie.
What are you going to do, have Adam in there beside Whelan with Ireland in front of them?
Essentially you'd be asking Whelan to do ALL the leg work and as a consequence we'd get steamrollered by the opposition in midfield.
Right so then, alternatively you'd start him instead of Ireland playing in the hole?
Did you not see how well Arnie's game developed once he had Ireland playing in that poistion, have you not seen how well Bojan links up with Ireland playing in that position?
And anyway it's not even Charlie's best position, we've already established and already seen what that was, it was where he was playing before he got suspended last season and that role simply doesn't exist in 2014/2015 for Stoke City.
Impact sub maybe but not a chance that we're going to be building a side around Charlie Adam this season and rightly so.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Aug 10, 2014 17:11:16 GMT
You have to say that Ireland will start as the main man in behind (presumably) Diouf. While Adam is more of a match winner then Ireland, it is also his downfall. We lose a certain fluidity with Adam in the team because he's always looking for that Hollywood ball. He can be in in our own half and he'll be looking for a 25-30 yard pass even if it isn't the best option and at times it results in us losing possession/momentum. Ireland is a lot more consistent, Adam has to many games when he is the worst player on the pitch and we look worse for it. I've said it before on here before we have got to improve our away form, as more teams are going to come to the Britannia and park the bus. We'll have to pick up 17-20 points on the road in order to finish in the top 10 again this season. I believe that playing Ireland away from home should hopefully improve our ability to score on the counter, especially with having a more mobile target man ahead of him. With Bojan, Odemwingie and Walters along with Ireland being able to play in that attacking midfielder role, you wonder how many games Adam will get. Especially if Bojan turns out to be the player we all hope he is. In an ideal world we'd keep Adam but if can't guarantee him 25+ PL appearances you'll wonder if he'd want out and you have to say we're not short of players in his position. Your point which I have underlined is the key point. I have no problem with Adam being used as an impact sub - he really is a good option to bring on to try to nick a goal. But, I don't think he is a starting option and I don't think he'd get too many outings as an impact sub - and I can't see him being willing to settle for that. I don't blame him - if he was a few years older he might settle for the impact sub role but he's still at an age which, for a footballer, counts as "prime" so he'll want regular starts. Good luck to him if he does go - there will be a club out there who, like the Blackpool of a few years back, will build their side around him.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 10, 2014 17:13:57 GMT
Nzonzi Sidwell Ireland
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Post by pmjh on Aug 10, 2014 20:39:32 GMT
Nzonzi and whelan for sure. I would chose Adam as he dictates the play, although I think Sparky prefers Ireland. Whowould have thought Who would have thought that Whelan would be one of the first names on the teamsheet, On current form he deserves it . Amazing how people see the game differently. You see, for me, Adam simply doesn't dictate the play. Adam scores some good goals - and some important goals last season. But as a team we look far more co-ordinated and have better shape with Ireland in the side than with Adam. I know you can't take too much from pre-season games but this pre-season it is Ireland who has brought out the best of Bojan and NZonzi. He's been the glue that held the attack together. Adam hasn't been at the races in preseason and we've looked quite poor with him on the pitch. And that's before you discuss the suicidal passes and the inability to tackle........ As you say we see different things in a game. I have only seen the home game so far. For me Ireland drifts out of the game far too much. Adam was involved more in his first 5 mins than Ireland was in the second half. Adam demands the ball and tries to make things happen, Ireland plays the simple ball. We have Whelan and Nzonzi to keep things ticking over and need to supplement this with someone a bit more creative.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 21:13:12 GMT
I didn't know I was criticising ?.......I thought we were offering different opinions and giving our reasoning for it I apologise if that's how you have taken it as it wasn't intended OK - maybe not criticising - but it is a bit boring repeatedly arguing with the same poster over the same subject.on the same message board. If you had said your piece about Adam on this thread before I commented, I wouldn't have bothered commenting on your post because we both know where we stand as we have had the same argument so many times. I'm quite happy to say my piece when someone else says what an important cog in the wheel Adam is. Such ignorance deserves to be corrected! But when you say it, what's the point? Neither of us will ever come out with anything new on the subject so why waste time arguing with one another? So you are saying that Adam wasn't an important player last season then? From what you have written above it certainly seems as though you are,and that you're playing down his importance to our team. I'm pretty sure I don't have to remind you of his match winning contributions of last season,or that without them we would have been in one almighty relegation scrap,do I?
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