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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:02:14 GMT
After the past three windows and the current Premier League bounty, if we do net get at least £20M - £25M spend out of the door this summer, someone is doing their job very, very badly......... or fans are being taken for a ride
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 26, 2014 9:02:54 GMT
As someone as wisely said on this thread, if you repeat shit often enough it becomes accepted wisdom. How many times has this particular piece of shit been put into its proper context for you and yet here we are again? You have agitated so often on this subject (on the basis that you actually believe that other forces than St Peter dismissed Pulis) that some less bright sparks have swallowed some of the bollocks hook line and sinker. One individual who has not a clue about how long Beswicks have been involved with the club and what they have done for the club to get players in and the donkey work involved in transfers sorted has stated he doesn't trust them! On what basis? In the Pulis days we were completely reliant on them. They are the clubs friend not the enemy but unfortunately you and others have chosen to paint them otherwise based on a complete crock of shit about Pulis (who incidentally will undoubtedly have them involved at Palace). Isn't it time to actually appreciate your football club is now big enough to have a professional approach to recruitment of players at all levels rather than relying on Harry Redknapps cast offs? We suddenly seem to be finding better, younger players at a fraction of the cost. That will surely increase over time. Is that not good news? Simple question. Do you think that Cartwright has done a good job since he joined the club? Answer that then we might see some 'agendas' and 'less than bright sparks' Momo, reading what Mark says on this thread it certainly seems that he thinks Cartwright has done a decent job since he was appointed. Now, I don't always agree with Mark (and he is well aware of that) but he certainly is much closer to knowing about the internal workings of our club than most fans - certainly more than most of the posters on this thread. And in this case the evidence I see suggests he is probably right. Since Cartwright arrived the club does seem to be getting closer to Peter Coates brief of signing a bigger number of youngish players with potential and who will have a resale value if/when they move on. Since we got promoted our record of producing income from player sales is frankly shocking - what is it - £8 million generated from player sales in six years. About half the Championship clubs will have better records than that. This years signings of Muniesa, Arnie, Pieters and Ireland look to have potential resale value should we ever move them on - and they have been signed for bugger all in terms of transfer fees. That doesn't preclude older players, of course. Odemwingie and our persuit of Olic show that we are not setting ourselves up as a kindergarten. If Mark thinks Cartwright has been a contributor to this policy then I tend to believe him.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Apr 26, 2014 9:07:51 GMT
After the past three windows and the current Premier League bounty, if we do net get at least £20M - £25M spend out of the door this summer, someone is doing their job very, very badly......... or fans are being taken for a ride Absolutely and totally wrong. If you think that is the measure of success and the way the club is operating now then we may as well start erecting the ducking stools and build the bonfires right now. You are setting measures that allow you to scream failure but not ones that even begin to match our transfer policy. You don't have to be a genius or have some sort of bullshit inside knowledge to work out what has changed. You just have to look and listen.
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Post by trigger on Apr 26, 2014 9:07:50 GMT
This is the perfect opportunity to push on, heading for our best ever points tally, league position and some excellent stuff on the pitch.
Not expecting top four yet (:-) ) but 8th to 6th is easily within our grasps with 2/3 quality additions.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:07:55 GMT
Simple question. Do you think that Cartwright has done a good job since he joined the club? Answer that then we might see some 'agendas' and 'less than bright sparks' Momo, reading what Mark says on this thread it certainly seems that he thinks Cartwright has done a decent job since he was appointed. Now, I don't always agree with Mark (and he is well aware of that) but he certainly is much closer to knowing about the internal workings of our club than most fans - certainly more than most of the posters on this thread. And in this case the evidence I see suggests he is probably right. Since Cartwright arrived the club does seem to be getting closer to Peter Coates brief of signing a bigger number of youngish players with potential and who will have a resale value if/when they move on. Since we got promoted our record of producing income from player sales is frankly shocking - what is it - £8 million generated from player sales in six years. About half the Championship clubs will have better records than that. This years signings of Muniesa, Arnie, Pieters and Ireland look to have potential resale value should we ever move them on - and they have been signed for bugger all in terms of transfer fees. That doesn't preclude older players, of course. Odemwingie and our persuit of Olic show that we are not setting ourselves up as a kindergarten. If Mark thinks Cartwright has been a contributor to this policy then I tend to believe him. I could just about buy that the longer term policy is in safe hands forny but the short term identification of targets moving to closure of deal has not improved a jot under this head of recruitment's tenure. 18 months and still no striker. There is simply no defending that.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:10:37 GMT
After the past three windows and the current Premier League bounty, if we do net get at least £20M - £25M spend out of the door this summer, someone is doing their job very, very badly......... or fans are being taken for a ride Absolutely and totally wrong. If you think that is the measure of success and the way the club is operating now then we may as well start erecting the ducking stools and build the bonfires right now. You are setting measures that allow you to scream failure but not ones that even begin to match our transfer policy. You don't have to be a genius or have some sort of bullshit inside knowledge to work out what has changed. You just have to look and listen. I do look and listen. 18 months Cartwright has been here with a brief to sign a striker. He has failed. The end. You certainly have a different way of judging failure depending on the personality involved old fruit don't you! Cartwright a personal friend?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Apr 26, 2014 9:10:41 GMT
Momo, reading what Mark says on this thread it certainly seems that he thinks Cartwright has done a decent job since he was appointed. Now, I don't always agree with Mark (and he is well aware of that) but he certainly is much closer to knowing about the internal workings of our club than most fans - certainly more than most of the posters on this thread. And in this case the evidence I see suggests he is probably right. Since Cartwright arrived the club does seem to be getting closer to Peter Coates brief of signing a bigger number of youngish players with potential and who will have a resale value if/when they move on. Since we got promoted our record of producing income from player sales is frankly shocking - what is it - £8 million generated from player sales in six years. About half the Championship clubs will have better records than that. This years signings of Muniesa, Arnie, Pieters and Ireland look to have potential resale value should we ever move them on - and they have been signed for bugger all in terms of transfer fees. That doesn't preclude older players, of course. Odemwingie and our persuit of Olic show that we are not setting ourselves up as a kindergarten. If Mark thinks Cartwright has been a contributor to this policy then I tend to believe him. I could just about buy that the longer term policy is in safe hands forny but the short term identification of targets moving to closure of deal has not improved a jot under this head of recruitment's tenure. 18 months and still no striker. There is simply no defending that. No striker? We have got one who cost £16million on our hands!!
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Post by Clem Fandango on Apr 26, 2014 9:10:54 GMT
Does Carto have any involvement with Academy recruitment?
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 26, 2014 9:12:34 GMT
I just don't get this view that Cartwright and Scholes are incompetent buffoons.
If they were that incompetent - and being paid pretty big salaries I'd guess, surely that would imply that Peter Coates was a doddering old idiot who has no idea what is going on his football club.
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Post by crownmeking on Apr 26, 2014 9:12:29 GMT
Just tell Momo that Pulis is to blame for everything... That will get him going.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:13:19 GMT
I could just about buy that the longer term policy is in safe hands forny but the short term identification of targets moving to closure of deal has not improved a jot under this head of recruitment's tenure. 18 months and still no striker. There is simply no defending that. No striker? We have got one who cost £16million on our hands!! Who's that then? Are you talking about the striker who Hughes loves who cost £10M who was bought before Cartwright joined the club?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Apr 26, 2014 9:20:23 GMT
Absolutely and totally wrong. If you think that is the measure of success and the way the club is operating now then we may as well start erecting the ducking stools and build the bonfires right now. You are setting measures that allow you to scream failure but not ones that even begin to match our transfer policy. You don't have to be a genius or have some sort of bullshit inside knowledge to work out what has changed. You just have to look and listen. I do look and listen. 18 months Cartwright has been here with a brief to sign a striker. He has failed. The end. You certainly have a different way of judging failure depending on the personality involved old fruit don't you! Cartwright a personal friend? I'm not sure if I would recognise him if I saw him in a Pizza Hut. Is your argument getting a bit desperate? Im not the one trying to judge personalities here. Im talking about processes and policies. You are making up things about individuals and making statement about their brief that you could not possibly know. On the basis of your made up brief you are then judging them a failure. Im tempted to say, you just couldn't make it up but it seems you can. And you can't half repeat it either! The only thing I can't fathom is why?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Apr 26, 2014 9:24:32 GMT
I think and agree that the best policy for us in future is to go for players who've contracts have run out or have one year left and season long loans. Targetting players between 21-27 who we can get cheaper with the odd veteran thrown in on a short contract. It's pleasing to know that we've learnt from the mistakes made with the deals on Crouch/Palacios, Whitehead, Tonge, Soares etc with the odd exception (Shea). Key of course is bring 1 or 2 youngsters in a season however I think it'll be 2-3 seasons before we see any signs of that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 9:24:55 GMT
I just don't get this view that Cartwright and Scholes are incompetent buffoons. If they were that incompetent - and being paid pretty big salaries I'd guess, surely that would imply that Peter Coates was a doddering old idiot who has no idea what is going on his football club. Yes, but judging by posts on this forum Rudge did fuck all.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:27:41 GMT
I do look and listen. 18 months Cartwright has been here with a brief to sign a striker. He has failed. The end. You certainly have a different way of judging failure depending on the personality involved old fruit don't you! Cartwright a personal friend? I'm not sure if I would recognise him if I saw him in a Pizza Hut. Is your argument getting a bit desperate? Im not the one trying to judge personalities here. Im talking about processes and policies. You are making up things about individuals and making statement about their brief that you could not possibly know. On the basis of your made up brief you are then judging them a failure. Im tempted to say, you just couldn't make it up but it seems you can. And you can't half repeat it either! The only thing I can't fathom is why? Well times have changed haven't they. A key contributor and mover and shaker to the Oatcake fanzine, telling supporters that they can't have an opinion on how someone is performing in a very key role at the club. Tony fucking Scholes and the Supporters Council springs to mind. The only thing 'made up' on this entire thread is that Cartwright brought a 16M quid striker to the club!
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 26, 2014 9:34:27 GMT
I'm not sure if I would recognise him if I saw him in a Pizza Hut. Is your argument getting a bit desperate? Im not the one trying to judge personalities here. Im talking about processes and policies. You are making up things about individuals and making statement about their brief that you could not possibly know. On the basis of your made up brief you are then judging them a failure. Im tempted to say, you just couldn't make it up but it seems you can. And you can't half repeat it either! The only thing I can't fathom is why? Well times have changed haven't they. A key contributor and mover and shaker to the Oatcake fanzine, telling supporters that they can't have an opinion on how someone is performing in a very key role at the club. Tony fucking Scholes and the Supporters Council springs to mind. The only thing 'made up' on this entire thread is that Cartwright brought a 16M quid striker to the club! But you really don't know do you Momo. You blames Scholes and Cartwright for failing to get Agudelo's work permit before finding out that we'd actually done a very good job at the tribunal and got royally stuffed. We've struggled to sign our striking targets for the last 18 months. Coincidently - that's pretty much the same period that we've been trying to spend less. Yes, it's far more difficult trying to get a top striker for peanuts isn't it.
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 26, 2014 9:37:32 GMT
I do look and listen. 18 months Cartwright has been here with a brief to sign a striker. He has failed. The end. You certainly have a different way of judging failure depending on the personality involved old fruit don't you! Cartwright a personal friend? I'm not sure if I would recognise him if I saw him in a Pizza Hut. Is your argument getting a bit desperate? Im not the one trying to judge personalities here. Im talking about processes and policies. You are making up things about individuals and making statement about their brief that you could not possibly know. On the basis of your made up brief you are then judging them a failure. Im tempted to say, you just couldn't make it up but it seems you can. And you can't half repeat it either! The only thing I can't fathom is why? Just hope you can answer two questions for me! 1. Why was he brought in? 2. What has he done so far to make him a good man for the club?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:38:48 GMT
Well times have changed haven't they. A key contributor and mover and shaker to the Oatcake fanzine, telling supporters that they can't have an opinion on how someone is performing in a very key role at the club. Tony fucking Scholes and the Supporters Council springs to mind. The only thing 'made up' on this entire thread is that Cartwright brought a 16M quid striker to the club! But you really don't know do you Momo. You blames Scholes and Cartwright for failing to get Agudelo's work permit before finding out that we'd actually done a very good job at the tribunal and got royally stuffed. We've struggled to sign our striking targets for the last 18 months. Coincidently - that's pretty much the same period that we've been trying to spend less. Yes, it's far more difficult trying to get a top striker for peanuts isn't it. What is it I don't really know? What is it I'm not allowed an opinion on? It's interesting that the most vocal Cartwright and Scholes apologists were the most vocal Pulis haters. They certainly 'knew' something about that didn't they?
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 26, 2014 9:40:27 GMT
I just don't get this view that Cartwright and Scholes are incompetent buffoons. If they were that incompetent - and being paid pretty big salaries I'd guess, surely that would imply that Peter Coates was a doddering old idiot who has no idea what is going on his football club. Yes, but judging by posts on this forum Rudge did fuck all. Yes we all thought that - then Rudgy did an interview and explained his role. For those who cared to listen it was a pretty full job. My point is that the best people to judge our senior back room staff are those who own the club. If these people aren't performing, then its Peter's and Denise's money that will be wasted. They seem a bit too savvy to be pissing away £100k's salaries on the management team who aren't pulling their weight. I'm sure that Peter and Denise didn't get where they are today by having incompetent people working directly for them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 9:42:22 GMT
Yes, but judging by posts on this forum Rudge did fuck all. Yes we all thought that - then Rudgy did an interview and explained his role. For those who cared to listen it was a pretty full job. My point is that the best people to judge our senior back room staff are those who own the club. If these people aren't performing, then its Peter's and Denise's money that will be wasted. They seem a bit too savvy to be pissing away £100k's salaries on the management team who aren't pulling their weight. I'm sure that Peter and Denise didn't get where they are today by having incompetent people working directly for them. I agree by the way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 9:44:49 GMT
Spot on, I can't see us spending big again any time soon - I predict a lot of disappointed Stokies on here around August time. I'd rather us have low key windows like the last few, we've made some great signings over the past year and long may it continue. We are surely going to spend somewhere between 5 and 10 million notes on a striker aren't we? I guess it depends how ambitious we are as a club, if we really hope to push on then the sort of striker we need if we're playing 1 up front (not suggesting we stand any chance of signing these... Bony/Lukaku type of player) is going to be £15m and wages of 60k+ at a guess - I just can't see us spending that much. We've got Crouchy for another season and I'll be very surprised if we spend big and replace him before his contract is up. I expect us to be looking at players in their early 20s who will have some resale value should they come good - and maybe the odd signing on a 1 or 2 year deal of someone in their 30s on a free. I could well be wrong but I think the days of us spending big are over for the next few years, if we can get to a situation where we are comfortably mid table every season without spending big, improve the football and go on a cup run every now and again I think the majority of fans would be delighted. Short of spending £200m+ the best we can hope to finish in the Premier League is 7th IMO and that would be one hell of a season.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 9:47:37 GMT
I'm not sure if I would recognise him if I saw him in a Pizza Hut. Is your argument getting a bit desperate? Im not the one trying to judge personalities here. Im talking about processes and policies. You are making up things about individuals and making statement about their brief that you could not possibly know. On the basis of your made up brief you are then judging them a failure. Im tempted to say, you just couldn't make it up but it seems you can. And you can't half repeat it either! The only thing I can't fathom is why? Just hope you can answer two questions for me! 1. Why was he brought in? 2. What has he done so far to make him a good man for the club? Presumably he was brought in because top brass didn't feel we were getting value for money in the transfer market.
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 26, 2014 9:49:12 GMT
But you really don't know do you Momo. You blames Scholes and Cartwright for failing to get Agudelo's work permit before finding out that we'd actually done a very good job at the tribunal and got royally stuffed. We've struggled to sign our striking targets for the last 18 months. Coincidently - that's pretty much the same period that we've been trying to spend less. Yes, it's far more difficult trying to get a top striker for peanuts isn't it. What is it I don't really know? What is it I'm not allowed an opinion on? It's interesting that the most vocal Cartwright and Scholes apologists were the most vocal Pulis haters. They certainly 'knew' something about that didn't they? You don't really know where the problem is. Scholes? Cartwright? Denise? Peter? All of them? None of us are party to the internal recruitment at the club. If people weren't doing what Denise and Peter expected, they'd be out by now surely? You can have an opinion, but you're guessing at where the blame - if any - should be apportioned. What's this got to do with TP FFS?
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 26, 2014 9:50:16 GMT
Yes we all thought that - then Rudgy did an interview and explained his role. For those who cared to listen it was a pretty full job. My point is that the best people to judge our senior back room staff are those who own the club. If these people aren't performing, then its Peter's and Denise's money that will be wasted. They seem a bit too savvy to be pissing away £100k's salaries on the management team who aren't pulling their weight. I'm sure that Peter and Denise didn't get where they are today by having incompetent people working directly for them. I agree by the way. I thought you did. I'm going to have to lie down. Agreeing with Tazi.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 9:54:13 GMT
What is it I don't really know? What is it I'm not allowed an opinion on? It's interesting that the most vocal Cartwright and Scholes apologists were the most vocal Pulis haters. They certainly 'knew' something about that didn't they? You don't really know where the problem is. Scholes? Cartwright? Denise? Peter? All of them? None of us are party to the internal recruitment at the club. If people weren't doing what Denise and Peter expected, they'd be out by now surely? You can have an opinion, but you're guessing at where the blame - if any - should be apportioned. What's this got to do with TP FFS? People had very clear view on the transfer policy under the ex manager, now it's all 'well you don't really know what's going on....' Strange that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 9:55:41 GMT
You don't really know where the problem is. Scholes? Cartwright? Denise? Peter? All of them? None of us are party to the internal recruitment at the club. If people weren't doing what Denise and Peter expected, they'd be out by now surely? You can have an opinion, but you're guessing at where the blame - if any - should be apportioned. What's this got to do with TP FFS? People had very clear view on the transfer policy under the ex manager, now it's all 'well you don't really know what's going on....' Strange that. I'm on the fence on Carto etc Sheiky but isn't this mysterious shift largely because TP had complete control of transfers and the waters are now well and truly muddied?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 10:01:52 GMT
I thought you did. I'm going to have to lie down. Agreeing with Tazi. Hee hee hee.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 26, 2014 10:04:29 GMT
I think Scholes got away with murder under the last managers ultimately failed transfer policy Rob. You say he had complete control but there is now way he went out of budget on his own or rubber stamped the contracts, if you say Pulis transfer policy was flawed then you have to concede Scholes was equally to blame.
Now he is a key player in the 'new world' and there are still major issues with the policy culminating in those horrific pizza scenes on deadline day.
It may be murky but certain facts are there to be judged and we have not improved a jot in closing deals since Cartwright joined the club and the failure in three consecutive windows to get a main striker is gross incompetence. No agendas, no personalities, it's just wank.
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Post by ukcstokie on Apr 26, 2014 10:06:00 GMT
You don't really know where the problem is. Scholes? Cartwright? Denise? Peter? All of them? None of us are party to the internal recruitment at the club. If people weren't doing what Denise and Peter expected, they'd be out by now surely? You can have an opinion, but you're guessing at where the blame - if any - should be apportioned. What's this got to do with TP FFS? People had very clear view on the transfer policy under the ex manager, now it's all 'well you don't really know what's going on....' Strange that. It was pretty clear from all the comms (Tone and PC) that TP decided who to target and bring in. Also demonstrated by the same old TP targets cropping up at Palace. PC has indicated that they wanted to change the approach to the transfer window - getting in targets early, and exploiting different markets. But this has also coincided with a smaller budget. Maybe some of the shit that was thrown at TP for the approach to transfer dealings in hindsight wasn't fair. But to continue to slag off some of our backroom staff when you haven't the foggiest idea what's going on, and when you've been shown to have got it completely wrong about them previously - well is that fair too?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 10:06:43 GMT
I think Scholes got away with murder under the last managers ultimately failed transfer policy Rob. You say he had complete control but there is now way he went out of budget on his own or rubber stamped the contracts, if you say Pulis transfer policy was flawed then you have to concede Scholes was equally to blame. Now he is a key player in the 'new world' and there are still major issues with the policy culminating in those horrific pizza scenes on deadline day. It may be murky but certain facts are there to be judged and we have not improved a jot in closing deals since Cartwright joined the club and the failure in there consecutive windows to get a main striker is gross incompetence. Scholes is the one constant in every mess of a window so why his role hasn't come under more scrutiny I don't know. In terms of identifying players and the lengths we'll go to to get them in, I think it's a lot less clear now than it was, say, 18 months ago.
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