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Post by GallysGuitar on Apr 25, 2014 8:53:12 GMT
Cameron Shawcross Wilson Pieters
Interceptions: 85 34 33 57
Blocks: 8 41 23 14
Tackles won: 71 22 49 86
Aerial duels won: 60% 69% 66% 58%
Clearances: 130 318 125 153
Fouls committed: 33 27 32 55
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 9:16:35 GMT
I'd like to see a statistics source for... "Pressing the midfield therefore cutting off opposition attack routes" "Being out of Position" "Reading the game well" "Being caught ball watching" "Shielding the ball well" "Misjudging the flight of the ball" "Making the correct run" "Making the wrong run" "Making the wrong pass" "Not picking up the man you're supposed to be marking" "Being beaten" "Going past a player with ease" "Putting in a bad final ball" ...and there are way, way, way more you can think up, but they're just off the top of my head. It's why i think stats are nowhere near to being the be all and end all in sport like some people think that they are and in most cases they're bollocks. This trend of using statistics constantly in football bugs the fudge out of me. Where everything is analysed up and down, data is processed and we're told something which in the context of the actual game is quite minor and for the most part irrelevant. In American sports they have the same issues, i remember reading something a while back damning the majority of Baseball stats because they don't actually take into account other important aspects of the game itself. There are tasks that players are given to perform in a game and these result in a player ending up with bad stats in that match or, as i've mentioned already, they're not tasks that will amount in specific data relating to them. So nameless Centre Back A has 98% pass completion. Because Centre Back A has passed the ball 18 times out of 20 passes straight back to the keeper from 8 yards away. "He's great with the ball at his feet. Look at that passing stat!" But he didn't pick up his man on two of the goals, was out of position for the 3rd, was ball watching from the corner on the 4th and stopped running when he should have carried on his run, leading to the pass intended for him being cut out and that resulted in the 5th goal. "But still...LOOK AT THOSE PASSING STATS, HE'S HOT STUFF!"
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 25, 2014 9:16:44 GMT
He's a local lad who would run through a brick wall for Stoke and we all love him to bits.
However to suggest he ever plays first team football again, with his cataclysmic and ponderously slow defending, is sheer lunacy.
Sorry to say it but Wilko is nowhere near, and never has been, good enough for Premier League football.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Apr 25, 2014 9:31:21 GMT
Spurs threat, on the flanks, will come down the right our left.
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Post by mrpickles on Apr 25, 2014 9:37:53 GMT
I'd like to see a statistics source for... "Pressing the midfield therefore cutting off opposition attack routes" "Being out of Position" "Reading the game well" "Being caught ball watching" "Shielding the ball well" "Misjudging the flight of the ball" "Making the correct run" "Making the wrong run" "Making the wrong pass" "Not picking up the man you're supposed to be marking" "Being beaten" "Going past a player with ease" "Putting in a bad final ball" ...and there are way, way, way more you can think up, but they're just off the top of my head. It's why i think stats are nowhere near to being the be all and end all in sport like some people think that they are and in most cases they're bollocks. This trend of using statistics constantly in football bugs the fudge out of me. Where everything is analysed up and down, data is processed and we're told something which in the context of the actual game is quite minor and for the most part irrelevant. In American sports they have the same issues, i remember reading something a while back damning the majority of Baseball stats because they don't actually take into account other important aspects of the game itself. There are tasks that players are given to perform in a game and these result in a player ending up with bad stats in that match or, as i've mentioned already, they're not tasks that will amount in specific data relating to them. So nameless Centre Back A has 98% pass completion. Because Centre Back A has passed the ball 18 times out of 20 passes straight back to the keeper from 8 yards away. "He's great with the ball at his feet. Look at that passing stat!" But he didn't pick up his man on two of the goals, was out of position for the 3rd, was ball watching from the corner on the 4th and stopped running when he should have carried on his run, leading to the pass intended for him being cut out and that resulted in the 5th goal. "But still...LOOK AT THOSE PASSING STATS, HE'S HOT STUFF!" Spot on mate. If Geoff Cameron had the positional sense to play at right back, the stats would be relevant (and impressive) but he hasn't, so they become misleading.
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Post by agingerstokie on Apr 25, 2014 10:01:05 GMT
This topic is summed up in one beautiful image.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Apr 25, 2014 12:03:59 GMT
Tired or crap, yep the answers crap. There's no agenda as you put it, just a difference of opinion, if you think other wise what agenda could anyone possibly have? Everyone wants any stoke player to do well, why wouldn't they? Well I'm glad I share the same "opinion" as the manager in that Wilko and Shotton are simply not good enough and that Cameron will start and once again fill in a crucial role for Stoke and if we do well he won't be mentioned and if it goes bad he will probably be the fall guy if we lose, as usual. Why? because that our "natural" players are ill suited for even being on the pitch, hughes seems to agree. Especially versus tottenham. You clearly have a bias vs cameron, you did even when he was one of our best players pre-christmas. lets not kid ourselves... I won't lie and say I'm not a fan of his, tit for tat. I wan't stoke to win and Wilko will give tottenham a peno no doubt... he's too slow and a physically not up to it. Yes okay you agree with the manager (not that that means anything) etc, but I was asking what agenda someone would have? I already know your opinion on Cameron we've done it to death.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 12:04:07 GMT
Wilko and ability in the same sentence killed it mate From the bloke who defended Whitehead week in week out, not only is that fucking ironic, but fucking laughable. H Fair point mate but you and i both know Wilko is very lucky to have ever played premiership football.Regarding Whitehead please read Luke 45's post on the Deano thread which imo is bang on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:06:30 GMT
He's a local lad who would run through a brick wall for Stoke and we all love him to bits. However to suggest he ever plays first team football again, with his cataclysmic and ponderously slow defending, is sheer lunacy. Sorry to say it but Wilko is nowhere near, and never has been, good enough for Premier League football. You don't become part of one of the league's best defences if you've 'never been good enough'. During our best spells of the Pulis era, he was playing an important part.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:07:05 GMT
From the bloke who defended Whitehead week in week out, not only is that fucking ironic, but fucking laughable. H Fair point mate but you and i both know Wilko is very lucky to have ever played premiership football.Regarding Whitehead please read Luke 45's post on the Deano thread which imo is bang on. Wilko has had miles more good games for Stoke than Dean fucking Whitehead.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 12:08:35 GMT
Fair point mate but you and i both know Wilko is very lucky to have ever played premiership football.Regarding Whitehead please read Luke 45's post on the Deano thread which imo is bang on. Wilko has had miles more good games for Stoke than Dean fucking Whitehead. I beg to differ Rob but its all about opinions mate
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 12:09:37 GMT
He's a local lad who would run through a brick wall for Stoke and we all love him to bits. However to suggest he ever plays first team football again, with his cataclysmic and ponderously slow defending, is sheer lunacy. Sorry to say it but Wilko is nowhere near, and never has been, good enough for Premier League football. Bang on the money
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:14:53 GMT
Wilko has had miles more good games for Stoke than Dean fucking Whitehead. I beg to differ Rob but its all about opinions mate Fair enough mate but I honestly don't see it. All our best runs under TP came with Wilko at right back and Deano out of the side. Whenever TP tried to replace Wilko he was always forced to go back to him because none of the other options were remotely as good. When Pennant was in the team he and Wilko linked up brilliantly I thought.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 12:19:58 GMT
I beg to differ Rob but its all about opinions mate Fair enough mate but I honestly don't see it. All our best runs under TP came with Wilko at right back and Deano out of the side. Whenever TP tried to replace Wilko he was always forced to go back to him because none of the other options were remotely as good. When Pennant was in the team he and Wilko linked up brilliantly I thought. Yes in a TP team we could get away with Wilko imo because of the amount of defensive protection but not a hope in hell in a Hughes team.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:24:58 GMT
Fair enough mate but I honestly don't see it. All our best runs under TP came with Wilko at right back and Deano out of the side. Whenever TP tried to replace Wilko he was always forced to go back to him because none of the other options were remotely as good. When Pennant was in the team he and Wilko linked up brilliantly I thought. Yes in a TP team we could get away with Wilko imo because of the amount of defensive protection but not a hope in hell in a Hughes team. Why keep going back to him then if we were only 'getting away' with him? Why not persist with Huth/Woodgate/Kelly there? He actually knew how to play as a right back, his positioning was better than any of those options, he tried to stop crosses and he dared to cross the halfway line when we attacked to help the likes of Pennant out.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 12:27:47 GMT
Yes in a TP team we could get away with Wilko imo because of the amount of defensive protection but not a hope in hell in a Hughes team. Why keep going back to him then if we were only 'getting away' with him? Why not persist with Huth/Woodgate/Kelly there? He actually knew how to play as a right back, his positioning was better than any of those options, he tried to stop crosses and he dared to cross the halfway line when we attacked to help the likes of Pennant out. Good question rob and only the capped one could answer that.He actually knew how to play right back in a Pulis team because he was asked to do nothing else imo.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 12:29:36 GMT
Why keep going back to him then if we were only 'getting away' with him? Why not persist with Huth/Woodgate/Kelly there? He actually knew how to play as a right back, his positioning was better than any of those options, he tried to stop crosses and he dared to cross the halfway line when we attacked to help the likes of Pennant out. Good question rob and only the capped one could answer that.He actually knew how to play right back in a Pulis team because he was asked to do nothing else imo. None of the others did though? He played as an actual, honest to God right back where none of the players Pulis tried to replace him with could. Not saying he's the answer now but to say he was never good enough when he was an important part of a mean defence and our best, most balanced TP sides just isn't true IMO.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 12:32:57 GMT
Good question rob and only the capped one could answer that.He actually knew how to play right back in a Pulis team because he was asked to do nothing else imo. None of the others did though? He played as an actual, honest to God right back where none of the players Pulis tried to replace him with could. Not saying he's the answer now but to say he was never good enough when he was an important part of a mean defence and our best, most balanced TP sides just isn't true IMO. Very true about the rest of the back four rob but the rest of them have adapted to the new methods whereas Wilko could never do that imo.The jury is still out on Huth as well for me to whether he has/can adapt to the Hughes passing style.
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Post by Olgrligm on Apr 25, 2014 12:45:41 GMT
I'd like to see a statistics source for... "Pressing the midfield therefore cutting off opposition attack routes" "Being out of Position" "Reading the game well" "Being caught ball watching" "Shielding the ball well" "Misjudging the flight of the ball" "Making the correct run" "Making the wrong run" "Making the wrong pass" "Not picking up the man you're supposed to be marking" "Being beaten" "Going past a player with ease" "Putting in a bad final ball" ...and there are way, way, way more you can think up, but they're just off the top of my head. It's why i think stats are nowhere near to being the be all and end all in sport like some people think that they are and in most cases they're bollocks. This trend of using statistics constantly in football bugs the fudge out of me. Where everything is analysed up and down, data is processed and we're told something which in the context of the actual game is quite minor and for the most part irrelevant. In American sports they have the same issues, i remember reading something a while back damning the majority of Baseball stats because they don't actually take into account other important aspects of the game itself. There are tasks that players are given to perform in a game and these result in a player ending up with bad stats in that match or, as i've mentioned already, they're not tasks that will amount in specific data relating to them. So nameless Centre Back A has 98% pass completion. Because Centre Back A has passed the ball 18 times out of 20 passes straight back to the keeper from 8 yards away. "He's great with the ball at his feet. Look at that passing stat!" But he didn't pick up his man on two of the goals, was out of position for the 3rd, was ball watching from the corner on the 4th and stopped running when he should have carried on his run, leading to the pass intended for him being cut out and that resulted in the 5th goal. "But still...LOOK AT THOSE PASSING STATS, HE'S HOT STUFF!" Allelujah!
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Post by RAF on Apr 25, 2014 12:55:42 GMT
From the bloke who defended Whitehead week in week out, not only is that fucking ironic, but fucking laughable. H Fair point mate but you and i both know Wilko is very lucky to have ever played premiership football.Regarding Whitehead please read Luke 45's post on the Deano thread which imo is bang on. I tell you what Mutters, there are several players who have been lucky to have ever played in the Prem with Stoke. Whitehead Collins Mama Cort Diao Shotton To name a few, but apart from a couple of games Wilko has never let us down. He's had his time now, and we need better, but you don't keep the likes of Ronaldo quiet if you aren't any good. And anyone saying he is a 2nd division player at best is a fucking idiot. H
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Post by southcarolinastokie on Apr 25, 2014 13:06:22 GMT
I don't get the hatred to Geoff by some. He has had a great season, granted he has looked of the boil the past month or so, but that is in some part to Odem not looking great and tracking back completely to help out. For most of the season Geoff has being played behind Walters so he has been doing a job for two: defending and attacking for Walters. FOr someone who isn't a natiral RB, he has done a stellar job, better than Wilko and Shotton would have done. I for one would love a better RB next season and for GC to be given a run out in CM. The days Wilko and Shotton have gone and we should be looking to the future now, I for one would love us to going for Richards on a free
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Apr 25, 2014 13:14:41 GMT
Fair point mate but you and i both know Wilko is very lucky to have ever played premiership football.Regarding Whitehead please read Luke 45's post on the Deano thread which imo is bang on. I tell you what Mutters, there are several players who have been lucky to have ever played in the Prem with Stoke. Whitehead Collins Mama Cort Diao Shotton To name a few, but apart from a couple of games Wilko has never let us down. He's had his time now, and we need better, but you don't keep the likes of Ronaldo quiet if you aren't any good. And anyone saying he is a 2nd division player at best is a fucking idiot. H Collins,Cort,Shotton and Diao i can agree with but the other pair not Championship at best for Wilko so do i pass the idiot test
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Post by nononsense on Apr 25, 2014 13:43:14 GMT
nobody playing on their left side scares me enough to replace Cameron !
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 25, 2014 13:46:35 GMT
Cameron Shawcross Wilson Pieters Interceptions: 85 34 33 57 Blocks: 8 41 23 14 Tackles won: 71 22 49 86 Aerial duels won: 60% 69% 66% 58% Clearances: 130 318 125 153 Fouls committed: 33 27 32 55 Easy there buddy! There's no room for facts in football. If you want to talk about geoff Cameron on the oatcake you better have a superior natural understanding of positional awareness than the rest of the world.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 25, 2014 14:01:09 GMT
I'm still looking for the "facts" of Wilko's last two bad games (where incidentally Cameron was a fucking nightmare) I’m already to rock and roll with Super Geoff’s 8 horror shows since Auld Lang Syne died down!
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Post by mrpickles on Apr 25, 2014 14:09:43 GMT
Cameron Shawcross Wilson Pieters Interceptions: 85 34 33 57 Blocks: 8 41 23 14 Tackles won: 71 22 49 86 Aerial duels won: 60% 69% 66% 58% Clearances: 130 318 125 153 Fouls committed: 33 27 32 55 Easy there buddy! There's no room for facts in football. If you want to talk about geoff Cameron on the oatcake you better have a superior natural understanding of positional awareness than the rest of the world. Either that, or a set of eyes
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Post by mrblobbysdad on Apr 25, 2014 14:12:04 GMT
Tim Sherwood is old and fat, Geoff will have him all day long
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Post by trigger on Apr 25, 2014 14:38:03 GMT
I have a feeling Tim will look to exploit this weakness in our current side... Time for Wilko to start lads? Laughable quote
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Apr 25, 2014 14:39:56 GMT
I'm still looking for the "facts" of Wilko's last two bad games (where incidentally Cameron was a fucking nightmare) I’m already to rock and roll with Super Geoff’s 8 horror shows since Auld Lang Syne died down! I like wilko, and I think he's good enough to be a backup, but he did concede an awful penalty, his crosses were shockingly far worse than geoff's, and he can't pass the ball about with the midfield.
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Post by johnsmithsupper on Apr 25, 2014 15:43:43 GMT
I have a feeling Tim will look to exploit this weakness in our current side... Time for Wilko to start lads? Sherwood couldn't exploit anything
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