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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 10:08:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by imho on Apr 17, 2014 10:08:41 GMT
This thread and some of the posts trying to defend it actually make me feel ashamed to be a stokie.
96 people lost their lives and for the best part of 25 years their families have had to fight the police, the media and the government of the day to stop their names being soiled.
God forbid that I or anyone else has to go through what they have been through but if they do hopefully people will show a little respect at a time of remembrance.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 10:15:05 GMT
Post by crapslinger on Apr 17, 2014 10:15:05 GMT
Have we ever had a definitive answer as to what caused the crush that day at Hillsborough, I am not talking about fault I am talking about the cause, it would appear that that section of the ground was tightly packed but without real issues until seven minutes after kick off ?, was it caused by an influx of Liverpool fans causing a surge forward leading that is the only conclusion I can come to. Heysel on the other hand as we know caused by violent Liverpool football hooligans attacking opposition fans, so we have fault/blame and cause which sadly equals closure, what I am trying to say is that until we have the cause element of Hillsborough firmly established there will never be closure.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:02:33 GMT
Post by mcf on Apr 17, 2014 11:02:33 GMT
Liverpool have a day of remembrance on 29th May every year for the Heysel tragedy...they have a permanent tribute at Anfield as well for it. it would be useful to remember that Liverpool FC don't insist upon or even ask for all kick offs to be delayed etc. at the anniversary of hillsborough, that is the FA that decide to do that and the Prem are happy to go along with it.pretty sure if the FA wanted to mark the anniversary of Heysel that Liverpool wouldn't object to that either but they can't have a minute's silence as the day falls outside of the football season. Liverpool also have had a Juventus flag in the kop at every home game since the disaster. so, in short...Liverpool don't ignore the Heysel disaster, it's simply that the British media do so no-one is even aware of most of the above. it also isn't Liverpool's fault that the British media focus so much on Hillsborough; you have to remember that because of what has gone on and the fact that there hasn't been any justice for what happened it is therefore still a media story whereas Heysel has been taken care of as far as the media is concerned so isn't a story anymore. you also have to remember that the British media aren't as interested in the Heysel disaster simply because only one Brit actually died there and he wasn't a Liverpool fan....you may as well ask why Nottingham Forest don't have a Hillsborough tribute at their ground for the Liverpool fans that died at Hillsborough so why does Hillsborough get so much attention? simple, it's an ongoing news story whereas Heysel isn't. is that Liverpool's fault or down to the British Media? no, let's just be lazy and blame it all on Liverpool FC because....well, we just don't like them do we so it's easy! Superb mick just superb ( applause ) Just out of interest...when was the first year that they did the day of remembrance? when did they build the permanent tribute? Why on earth would Liverpool possibly object to a Heysel minute's silence? I think it was more about Bradford, Bolton... it was only days ago when people, myself included, were having a pop at the FA and the media about this. Did Liverpool mention anything about Heysel when they had that service in their ground earlier this week? you might be right, it might just be the media failing to report it.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:05:55 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:05:55 GMT
Mick you miss my point. Liverpool have been the club that cried wolf There fans have travelled to Europe (and other games) en masse causing trouble many with out tickets for years. They will try and blag their way into games. This is well documented and includes the Athens CL final you would think they know better. If you read that guardian article a Liverpool fan says that hooliganism factors indirectly led to some of the implementations at hillsborough. The article on their official site is a small acknowledgment IMO as little as they can get away with. J96 is great but over time if LFC had done a lot more to recognise heysel they might have had a lot more sympathy and earlier success. It also fuels the hillsborough debate (one of which I'm not getting into) It is my opinion that sometimes you must make a big song and dance about your mistakes before you go on about your woes. I watched the tribute service on Tuesday and by in large was moving and very thoughtful, I was a bit returned that some speakers used it as a platform to score points to be fair though mate, i am struggling to see what it is exactly that people want Liverpool to do about Heysel. why would they have some huge memorial at Anfield to remember dead Juventus fans? do Notts Forest have some huge memorial to remember the dead of hillsborough? no..do Lincoln City have a huge monolith to remember those that died at the Bradford fire? no, so why would Liverpool do that for fans of another club? that's my point.... NO-ONE at all on here has had a go at those clubs for not doing anything to remember disasters they were involved in but apparently Liverpool are wankers for not doing it. it is precisely that complete lack of consistency shown by posters on here which makes it clear that is about agendas and not about "Fairness" at all as if it were then they would be just as mad at the other clubs i have mentioned as well. the main gripe people seem to have is all the media coverage and hoo ha about Hillsborough and the lack of it about Heysel.this is where people seem to have got the 2 issues completely confused....Hillsborough is a media story and gets all the coverage it does not because of the memory of the 96 that died but because no-one has been brought to justice for it. now, if that HAD been done 25 years ago then yes, you would still have a memorial service etc. every year in Liverpool for Hillsborough but that would probably be that as far as Liverpool FC are concerned. it is NOT them that ask every club to have a minutes silence or for kick off times to be delayed around all games, that is the FA that decided upon that independently of Liverpool FC. it is not Liverpool FC that tell the media to print stories about the 96 that died, the media simply do because of the ongoing story of the justice (or lack of it) element to the history of the incident. for Heysel, Liverpool FC have apologised for their part in it and those that were involved have been charged, convicted and justice was done, that has not happened for the Hillsborough incident and that is why it is still in the media, if people are unhappy about that then blame the media not Liverpool! Liverpool simply campaign for justice and if that makes a news story then the media will cover it, if it doesn't then Liverpool would still campaign silently behind closed doors, it;s not their fault that the general public are also interested in it and therefore it's covered so it will sell papers....they don't need to campaign for anything for Heysel as justice WAS served over 20 years ago so the media aren't interested in that. how is what the media do or don't decide to cover the fault of Liverpool exactly? delayed kick off times around the nation = nothing to do with Liverpool FC, it is a decision made by the FA and the vast majority of reasonably minded people have absolutely no issue with that whatsoever. if people are pissed off blame the FA! more media coverage of Hillsborough nowadays than Heysel = nothing to do with Liverpool, it is a decision made by newspaper editors on what will or won't sell papers...Hillsbourough is ongoing so will sell papers, Heysel isn't so won't, simples! if people are pissed off blame the media! what people need to start doing is separating the 2 Hillsborough issues..... 1)remembrance that was observed at the weekend around the country. that was so people could remember and pay tribute to those that died, nothing else 2) the justice campaign which is what gets in the papers all the time, that isn't specifically about the 96 names it's specifically about the fact that no-one has been made to pay for what happened there just because one could not happen without the other in no way means that they have to be inter-linked and treated as 1 big topic at all....the delayed kick off was NOT so people can apportion blame and gain justice in the same way that November 11th isn't so people can get pissed off with the Germans and blame them....it is/was simply to remember the 96 people that died that day. the blame and justice part of it is dealt with separately (as it should be in a legal fashion) and is THAT which is the main focus of the media over the course of the year. i really struggle to see why people can't see that, it's not hard at all.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:10:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:10:54 GMT
Superb mick just superb ( applause ) Just out of interest...when was the first year that they did the day of remembrance? when did they build the permanent tribute? Why on earth would Liverpool possibly object to a Heysel minute's silence? I think it was more about Bradford, Bolton... it was only days ago when people, myself included, were having a pop at the FA and the media about this. Did Liverpool mention anything about Heysel when they had that service in their ground earlier this week? you might be right, it might just be the media failing to report it. they have a service on May 29th for the Heysel dead mcf....absolutely no need to mention them on a day that is there for remembering something entirely spearate. basicaly, Liverpool FC have not swept Heysel under the carpet..as i mentioned earlier they've had a Juve flag in the Kop at evey home game since that particular tragedy and have a memorial. the media simply don't cover it as it largely didn't effect UK fans and the justice element has been taken care of long ago. if the justice element of Hillsborough had been sorted 25 years ago then you wouldn't hear as much about that nowadays either, you'd get a 1 minutes silence on the anniversary and that's it. the fact that Bradford, Bolton, Ibrox don't get as much attention isn't Liverpool's fault is it? it's down to the media, they will only cover things that make "Good copy" and those other events don't sell papers because justice was done at the time so there is no longer a story there. it was all over the papers at the time but there is no need for it to be any longer. that's not Liverpool's fault, that's down to the press mate! what i fail to understand is why Juventus seem perfectly happy with remembering Heysel TOGETHER with Liverpool and take a united front on it but for some reason British people (who weren't affected) seem to go mad at Liverpool for not doing enough? Juventus don't have a problem with how Liverpool choose to remember it so why should we? oh yeah, it's because Juventus aren't as interested in taking cheap pot shots and scoring points off people as some on here seem to be (not you mate,or salop for that matter, you've both been very reasoned on here, it's some others on here who obviously do have an agenda)
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:14:19 GMT
Post by Northy on Apr 17, 2014 11:14:19 GMT
Mick you miss my point. Liverpool have been the club that cried wolf There fans have travelled to Europe (and other games) en masse causing trouble many with out tickets for years. They will try and blag their way into games. This is well documented and includes the Athens CL final you would think they know better. If you read that guardian article a Liverpool fan says that hooliganism factors indirectly led to some of the implementations at hillsborough. The article on their official site is a small acknowledgment IMO as little as they can get away with. J96 is great but over time if LFC had done a lot more to recognise heysel they might have had a lot more sympathy and earlier success. It also fuels the hillsborough debate (one of which I'm not getting into) It is my opinion that sometimes you must make a big song and dance about your mistakes before you go on about your woes. I watched the tribute service on Tuesday and by in large was moving and very thoughtful, I was a bit returned that some speakers used it as a platform to score points to be fair though mate, i am struggling to see what it is exactly that people want Liverpool to do about Heysel. why would they have some huge memorial at Anfield to remember dead Juventus fans? do Notts Forest have some huge memorial to remember the dead of hillsborough? no..do Lincoln City have a huge monolith to remember those that died at the Bradford fire? no, so why would Liverpool do that for fans of another club? that's my point.... NO-ONE at all on here has had a go at those clubs for not doing anything to remember disasters they were involved in but apparently Liverpool are wankers for not doing it. it is precisely that complete lack of consistency But those clubs didn't cause the deaths, they were merely in attendance at the match, it was Liverpool fans who caused the Juventus deaths
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:18:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:18:16 GMT
to be fair though mate, i am struggling to see what it is exactly that people want Liverpool to do about Heysel. why would they have some huge memorial at Anfield to remember dead Juventus fans? do Notts Forest have some huge memorial to remember the dead of hillsborough? no..do Lincoln City have a huge monolith to remember those that died at the Bradford fire? no, so why would Liverpool do that for fans of another club? that's my point.... NO-ONE at all on here has had a go at those clubs for not doing anything to remember disasters they were involved in but apparently Liverpool are wankers for not doing it. it is precisely that complete lack of consistency But those clubs didn't cause the deaths, they were merely in attendance at the match, it was Liverpool fans who caused the Juventus deaths it wasn't the club that caused the deaths at Heysel either, it was a small number of fans. Liverpool FC have apologised for it and those fans have been dealt with in serving custodial sentences and receiving lifetime bans....the club have a memorial at Anfield, have a Juve flag at every home game in the kop and have a memorial service on May 29th.what else do you want them to do exactly? serious question....what else should they do? it's not their fault Hillsborough gets in the papers more is it? that's down to the press, strangely enough after a story has run it's course (which happens as soon as those who are responsible have been found guilty for what they've done) the papers forget about it...THAT'S why Hillsborough is still in the media every 5 minutes...this idea that it's the club that keep it in everyone's minds simply because they want to and for no other reason and they do fuck all to remember Heysel is inaccurate, completely wrong and simply down to the fact the media do report certain things but don't with others because it won't sell papers. that IS NOT the fault of Liverpool FC
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Apr 17, 2014 11:21:00 GMT
to be fair though mate, i am struggling to see what it is exactly that people want Liverpool to do about Heysel. why would they have some huge memorial at Anfield to remember dead Juventus fans? do Notts Forest have some huge memorial to remember the dead of hillsborough? no..do Lincoln City have a huge monolith to remember those that died at the Bradford fire? no, so why would Liverpool do that for fans of another club? that's my point.... NO-ONE at all on here has had a go at those clubs for not doing anything to remember disasters they were involved in but apparently Liverpool are wankers for not doing it. it is precisely that complete lack of consistency But those clubs didn't cause the deaths, they were merely in attendance at the match, it was Liverpool fans who caused the Juventus deaths Total rubbish mate. Liverpool were the only club that had angels for fans.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:23:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:23:07 GMT
But those clubs didn't cause the deaths, they were merely in attendance at the match, it was Liverpool fans who caused the Juventus deaths Total rubbish mate. Liverpool were the only club that had angels for fans. no offence mate, but what the fuck has that got to do with the current discussion??? i don't see anyone, anywhere on this thread suggesting that Liverpool fans are blameless as usual stafford, if you can't make pertinent or constructive comments on such an emotive thread and show at least some modicum of sensitivity to the subject matter involved then it's best for you to stay the fuck out of it really
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:25:13 GMT
Post by Northy on Apr 17, 2014 11:25:13 GMT
But those clubs didn't cause the deaths, they were merely in attendance at the match, it was Liverpool fans who caused the Juventus deaths it wasn't the club that caused the deaths at Heysel either, it was a small number of fans. Liverpool FC have apologised for it and those fans have been dealt with in serving custodial sentences and receiving lifetime bans....the club have a memorial at Anfield, have a Juve flag at every home game in the kop and have a memorial service on May 29th.what else do you want them to do exactly? I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies of your post on the clubs, that is all, Lincoln & Notts Forest were merely spectators at the match, they didn't set fire to the stand or cause a crush in the liverpool end, they won't have the need to maybe feel involved enough to erect a memorial
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:32:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:32:48 GMT
it wasn't the club that caused the deaths at Heysel either, it was a small number of fans. Liverpool FC have apologised for it and those fans have been dealt with in serving custodial sentences and receiving lifetime bans....the club have a memorial at Anfield, have a Juve flag at every home game in the kop and have a memorial service on May 29th.what else do you want them to do exactly? I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies of your post on the clubs, that is all, Lincoln & Notts Forest were merely spectators at the match. it's not inconsistent though..... i have said countless times how Liverpool DO remember those that died at Heysel, people on here have said it isn't enough. i am asking what else should they be doing exactly? as per usual though no-one wants to answer that simply because they don't really know, they just want a cheap excuse to blame Liverpool for Hillsborough being a bigger media story, blaming Liverpool because the Bradford, Ibrox etc. disasters don't get as much media attention and some last week were even having a go at Liverpool because kick off times were delayed!!! as i have pointed out on several occasions (but as per on here, people conveniently ignore it!), the media coverage of Hillsborough is because it is an ongoing story...the lack of media coverage of other disasters is because they have been settled in terms of justice being done (and have fuck all to do with Liverpool anyway) and the delays in kick offs etc. may rankle with some as being seen as treating that disaster as more important but that is down to the FA NOT liverpool. it's simple lack of common sense, lack of accurate facts and cheap excuses to blame Liverpool when in actual fact the people on here that are pissed off should be blaming the FA and the media...Liverpool haven't done anything to cheapen any other disasters or make this seem more important than them, it's just fuckin idiots on here who either don't have the facts or choose to ignore them ot suit their argument that have implied they have done so just so they have something to get pissed off with Liverpool about and to lower themselves to that level given the amount of people that died in all those disasters by blaming it all on Liverpool (when Heysel was the only thing they have responsibility for) is sick! Heysel, hillsborough, the Bradford fire, Ibrox etc. were all terrible tragedies where there was far too much loss of life...unfortunately though some on here are ignoring facts and choosing to see these disasters not as horrible and tragic events but simply ammunition to slag off Liverpool FC....it's an absolute disgrace and makes me embarrassed to be a Stoke fan!
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:35:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by salopstick on Apr 17, 2014 11:35:56 GMT
I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies of your post on the clubs, that is all, Lincoln & Notts Forest were merely spectators at the match. it's not inconsistent though..... i have said countless times how Liverpool DO remember those that died at Heysel, people on here have said it isn't enough. i am asking what else should they be doing exactly? as per usual though no-one wants to answer that simply because they don't really know, they just want a cheap excuse to blame Liverpool for Hillsborough being a bigger media story, blaming Liverpool because the Bradford, Ibrox etc. disasters don't get as much media attention and some last week were even having a go at Liverpool because kick off times were delayed!!! as i have pointed out on several occasions (but as per on here, people conveniently ignore it!), the media coverage of Hillsborough is because it is an ongoing story...the lack of media coverage of other disasters is because they have been settled in terms of justice being done (and have fuck all to do with Liverpool anyway) and the delays in kick offs etc. may rankle with some as being seen as treating that disaster as more important but that is down to the FA NOT liverpool. it's simple lack of common sense, lack of accurate facts and cheap excuses to blame Liverpool when in actual fact the people on here that are pissed off should be blaming the FA and the media...Liverpool haven't done anything to cheapen any other disasters or make this seem more important than them, it's just fuckin idiots on here who either don't have the facts or choose to ignore them ot suit their argument that have implied they have done so just so they have something to get pissed off with Liverpool about and to lower themselves to that level given the amount of people that died in all those disasters by blaming it all on Liverpool (when Heysel was the only thing they have responsibility for) is sick! It took them 25 years to have a memorial
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:37:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 11:37:20 GMT
it's not inconsistent though..... i have said countless times how Liverpool DO remember those that died at Heysel, people on here have said it isn't enough. i am asking what else should they be doing exactly? as per usual though no-one wants to answer that simply because they don't really know, they just want a cheap excuse to blame Liverpool for Hillsborough being a bigger media story, blaming Liverpool because the Bradford, Ibrox etc. disasters don't get as much media attention and some last week were even having a go at Liverpool because kick off times were delayed!!! as i have pointed out on several occasions (but as per on here, people conveniently ignore it!), the media coverage of Hillsborough is because it is an ongoing story...the lack of media coverage of other disasters is because they have been settled in terms of justice being done (and have fuck all to do with Liverpool anyway) and the delays in kick offs etc. may rankle with some as being seen as treating that disaster as more important but that is down to the FA NOT liverpool. it's simple lack of common sense, lack of accurate facts and cheap excuses to blame Liverpool when in actual fact the people on here that are pissed off should be blaming the FA and the media...Liverpool haven't done anything to cheapen any other disasters or make this seem more important than them, it's just fuckin idiots on here who either don't have the facts or choose to ignore them ot suit their argument that have implied they have done so just so they have something to get pissed off with Liverpool about and to lower themselves to that level given the amount of people that died in all those disasters by blaming it all on Liverpool (when Heysel was the only thing they have responsibility for) is sick! It took them 25 years to have a memorial and Ibrox took over 10 years to have a memorial plaque for the 1971 disaster which Rangers FC admitted fault for and only commissioned a larger memorial after a campaign by the victim's families...you haven't had a go at them though have you? so you still ignoring the question though? what else do you want them to do???????
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 11:48:07 GMT
Post by salopstick on Apr 17, 2014 11:48:07 GMT
It's too late
Their lack of proper action over the years has left it too long to get scumbags like me to change my opinion. Even now 25 years after hillsborough it would not hurt them to properly acknowledge heysel. A small service on the 29th May doesn't cut it
There are Liverpool fans out there who blame uefa for liverpools wildness years in Europe. Indoctrinated in J96 but uneducated and oblivious to heysel
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 12:24:09 GMT
Post by mcf on Apr 17, 2014 12:24:09 GMT
That is the bottom line....it's too late.
The club ignored Heysel for years.
The club still played in the FA Cup that year - I find this amazing to this day that a community struck down with such grief can still find the ability to attend such games in such numbers literally weeks later. Many showed where their priorities lay.
That does not take away anything from the families.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 12:59:09 GMT
Post by crapslinger on Apr 17, 2014 12:59:09 GMT
Mick you miss my point. Liverpool have been the club that cried wolf There fans have travelled to Europe (and other games) en masse causing trouble many with out tickets for years. They will try and blag their way into games. This is well documented and includes the Athens CL final you would think they know better. If you read that guardian article a Liverpool fan says that hooliganism factors indirectly led to some of the implementations at hillsborough. The article on their official site is a small acknowledgment IMO as little as they can get away with. J96 is great but over time if LFC had done a lot more to recognise heysel they might have had a lot more sympathy and earlier success. It also fuels the hillsborough debate (one of which I'm not getting into) It is my opinion that sometimes you must make a big song and dance about your mistakes before you go on about your woes. I watched the tribute service on Tuesday and by in large was moving and very thoughtful, I was a bit returned that some speakers used it as a platform to score points to be fair though mate, i am struggling to see what it is exactly that people want Liverpool to do about Heysel. why would they have some huge memorial at Anfield to remember dead Juventus fans? do Notts Forest have some huge memorial to remember the dead of hillsborough? no..do Lincoln City have a huge monolith to remember those that died at the Bradford fire? no, so why would Liverpool do that for fans of another club? that's my point.... NO-ONE at all on here has had a go at those clubs for not doing anything to remember disasters they were involved in but apparently Liverpool are wankers for not doing it. it is precisely that complete lack of consistency shown by posters on here which makes it clear that is about agendas and not about "Fairness" at all as if it were then they would be just as mad at the other clubs i have mentioned as well. the main gripe people seem to have is all the media coverage and hoo ha about Hillsborough and the lack of it about Heysel.this is where people seem to have got the 2 issues completely confused....Hillsborough is a media story and gets all the coverage it does not because of the memory of the 96 that died but because no-one has been brought to justice for it. now, if that HAD been done 25 years ago then yes, you would still have a memorial service etc. every year in Liverpool for Hillsborough but that would probably be that as far as Liverpool FC are concerned. it is NOT them that ask every club to have a minutes silence or for kick off times to be delayed around all games, that is the FA that decided upon that independently of Liverpool FC. it is not Liverpool FC that tell the media to print stories about the 96 that died, the media simply do because of the ongoing story of the justice (or lack of it) element to the history of the incident. for Heysel, Liverpool FC have apologised for their part in it and those that were involved have been charged, convicted and justice was done, that has not happened for the Hillsborough incident and that is why it is still in the media, if people are unhappy about that then blame the media not Liverpool! Liverpool simply campaign for justice and if that makes a news story then the media will cover it, if it doesn't then Liverpool would still campaign silently behind closed doors, it;s not their fault that the general public are also interested in it and therefore it's covered so it will sell papers....they don't need to campaign for anything for Heysel as justice WAS served over 20 years ago so the media aren't interested in that. how is what the media do or don't decide to cover the fault of Liverpool exactly? delayed kick off times around the nation = nothing to do with Liverpool FC, it is a decision made by the FA and the vast majority of reasonably minded people have absolutely no issue with that whatsoever. if people are pissed off blame the FA! more media coverage of Hillsborough nowadays than Heysel = nothing to do with Liverpool, it is a decision made by newspaper editors on what will or won't sell papers...Hillsbourough is ongoing so will sell papers, Heysel isn't so won't, simples! if people are pissed off blame the media! what people need to start doing is separating the 2 Hillsborough issues..... 1)remembrance that was observed at the weekend around the country. that was so people could remember and pay tribute to those that died, nothing else 2) the justice campaign which is what gets in the papers all the time, that isn't specifically about the 96 names it's specifically about the fact that no-one has been made to pay for what happened there just because one could not happen without the other in no way means that they have to be inter-linked and treated as 1 big topic at all....the delayed kick off was NOT so people can apportion blame and gain justice in the same way that November 11th isn't so people can get pissed off with the Germans and blame them....it is/was simply to remember the 96 people that died that day. the blame and justice part of it is dealt with separately (as it should be in a legal fashion) and is THAT which is the main focus of the media over the course of the year. i really struggle to see why people can't see that, it's not hard at all. So in your opinion what caused the tradergy at Hillsbourgh ?, I don't mean blame but what casued that actual incident to occur.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:03:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:03:07 GMT
to be fair though mate, i am struggling to see what it is exactly that people want Liverpool to do about Heysel. why would they have some huge memorial at Anfield to remember dead Juventus fans? do Notts Forest have some huge memorial to remember the dead of hillsborough? no..do Lincoln City have a huge monolith to remember those that died at the Bradford fire? no, so why would Liverpool do that for fans of another club? that's my point.... NO-ONE at all on here has had a go at those clubs for not doing anything to remember disasters they were involved in but apparently Liverpool are wankers for not doing it. it is precisely that complete lack of consistency shown by posters on here which makes it clear that is about agendas and not about "Fairness" at all as if it were then they would be just as mad at the other clubs i have mentioned as well. the main gripe people seem to have is all the media coverage and hoo ha about Hillsborough and the lack of it about Heysel.this is where people seem to have got the 2 issues completely confused....Hillsborough is a media story and gets all the coverage it does not because of the memory of the 96 that died but because no-one has been brought to justice for it. now, if that HAD been done 25 years ago then yes, you would still have a memorial service etc. every year in Liverpool for Hillsborough but that would probably be that as far as Liverpool FC are concerned. it is NOT them that ask every club to have a minutes silence or for kick off times to be delayed around all games, that is the FA that decided upon that independently of Liverpool FC. it is not Liverpool FC that tell the media to print stories about the 96 that died, the media simply do because of the ongoing story of the justice (or lack of it) element to the history of the incident. for Heysel, Liverpool FC have apologised for their part in it and those that were involved have been charged, convicted and justice was done, that has not happened for the Hillsborough incident and that is why it is still in the media, if people are unhappy about that then blame the media not Liverpool! Liverpool simply campaign for justice and if that makes a news story then the media will cover it, if it doesn't then Liverpool would still campaign silently behind closed doors, it;s not their fault that the general public are also interested in it and therefore it's covered so it will sell papers....they don't need to campaign for anything for Heysel as justice WAS served over 20 years ago so the media aren't interested in that. how is what the media do or don't decide to cover the fault of Liverpool exactly? delayed kick off times around the nation = nothing to do with Liverpool FC, it is a decision made by the FA and the vast majority of reasonably minded people have absolutely no issue with that whatsoever. if people are pissed off blame the FA! more media coverage of Hillsborough nowadays than Heysel = nothing to do with Liverpool, it is a decision made by newspaper editors on what will or won't sell papers...Hillsbourough is ongoing so will sell papers, Heysel isn't so won't, simples! if people are pissed off blame the media! what people need to start doing is separating the 2 Hillsborough issues..... 1)remembrance that was observed at the weekend around the country. that was so people could remember and pay tribute to those that died, nothing else 2) the justice campaign which is what gets in the papers all the time, that isn't specifically about the 96 names it's specifically about the fact that no-one has been made to pay for what happened there just because one could not happen without the other in no way means that they have to be inter-linked and treated as 1 big topic at all....the delayed kick off was NOT so people can apportion blame and gain justice in the same way that November 11th isn't so people can get pissed off with the Germans and blame them....it is/was simply to remember the 96 people that died that day. the blame and justice part of it is dealt with separately (as it should be in a legal fashion) and is THAT which is the main focus of the media over the course of the year. i really struggle to see why people can't see that, it's not hard at all. So in your opinion what caused the tradergy at Hillsbourgh ?, I don't mean blame but what casued that actual incident to occur. that has literally nothing to do with what we are discussing and is an argument that is being discussed by legal authorities at present as only they have access to the evidence necessary to make such a judgment
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:11:21 GMT
Post by crapslinger on Apr 17, 2014 13:11:21 GMT
So in your opinion what caused the tradergy at Hillsbourgh ?, I don't mean blame but what casued that actual incident to occur. that has literally nothing to do with what we are discussing and is an argument that is being discussed by legal authorities at present as only they have access to the evidence necessary to make such a judgment So what caused the tragedy at Hillsbourgh has nothing to do with it 8-|now that's an interesting theory, what do you think it was that caused that sudden crush or do you not have any views on that, 25 years on and we still have not established the cause strange that.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:15:38 GMT
Post by Davef on Apr 17, 2014 13:15:38 GMT
That is the bottom line....it's too late. The club ignored Heysel for years. The club still played in the FA Cup that year - I find this amazing to this day that a community struck down with such grief can still find the ability to attend such games in such numbers literally weeks later. Many showed where their priorities lay. That does not take away anything from the families. It was 25 years ago Merk, times change and maybe in this day and age a club would pull out of the competition. The players and management attended all the funerals and perhaps felt compelled to continue their season after meeting the bereaved families? Rangers continued their season two weeks after the Ibrox disaster and Bolton played on in the FA Cup in the year of the Burnden disaster. The semi-final was two weeks later. Stoke played a league game a week after the disaster!
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:19:03 GMT
Post by Northy on Apr 17, 2014 13:19:03 GMT
I was merely pointing out the inconsistencies of your post on the clubs, that is all, Lincoln & Notts Forest were merely spectators at the match. it's not inconsistent though..... i have said countless times how Liverpool DO remember those that died at Heysel, people on here have said it isn't enough. i am asking what else should they be doing exactly? as per usual though no-one wants to answer that simply because they don't really know, they just want a cheap excuse to blame Liverpool for Hillsborough being a bigger media story, blaming Liverpool because the Bradford, Ibrox etc. disasters don't get as much media attention and some last week were even having a go at Liverpool because kick off times were delayed!!! as i have pointed out on several occasions (but as per on here, people conveniently ignore it!), the media coverage of Hillsborough is because it is an ongoing story...the lack of media coverage of other disasters is because they have been settled in terms of justice being done (and have fuck all to do with Liverpool anyway) and the delays in kick offs etc. may rankle with some as being seen as treating that disaster as more important but that is down to the FA NOT liverpool. it's simple lack of common sense, lack of accurate facts and cheap excuses to blame Liverpool when in actual fact the people on here that are pissed off should be blaming the FA and the media...Liverpool haven't done anything to cheapen any other disasters or make this seem more important than them, it's just fuckin idiots on here who either don't have the facts or choose to ignore them ot suit their argument that have implied they have done so just so they have something to get pissed off with Liverpool about and to lower themselves to that level given the amount of people that died in all those disasters by blaming it all on Liverpool (when Heysel was the only thing they have responsibility for) is sick! Heysel, hillsborough, the Bradford fire, Ibrox etc. were all terrible tragedies where there was far too much loss of life...unfortunately though some on here are ignoring facts and choosing to see these disasters not as horrible and tragic events but simply ammunition to slag off Liverpool FC....it's an absolute disgrace and makes me embarrassed to be a Stoke fan! we are obviously thinking down different paths, I was merely saying the differences between the situations of fans of a club being involved and not and not blaming Liverpool FC, your post said a 'a compelte lack of consistency by posters on here' your answer to me wasn't consistent with the clubs and supporters behavior attending the matches, Forest and Lincoln supporters were merely attending and weren't involved in what happened so probably don't see the need for memorials etc. , Liverpool fans were directly involved in the deaths of the Juventus supporters so probably Liverpool FC feel they need to be more involved
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:21:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:21:38 GMT
that has literally nothing to do with what we are discussing and is an argument that is being discussed by legal authorities at present as only they have access to the evidence necessary to make such a judgment So what caused the tragedy at Hillsbourgh has nothing to do with it 8-|now that's an interesting theory, what do you think it was that caused that sudden crush or do you not have any views on that, 25 years on and we still have not established the cause strange that. i'm struggling to see the relevance of this to anything we've been discussing mate....who caused what happened at Hillsborough isn't anything to do with a day of remembrance for the 96 that did die no. that day was simply to remember lost loved ones etc. the campaign for justice is a separate thing and one that is being dealt with 365 days of the year if you want to have an argument about who's fault Hillsborough was then crack on but i won't be joining in. i simply wondered what people wanted Liverpool to do about the Heysel disaster and why it's not Liverpool's fault that Hillsborough gets more media coverage than the rest, if you want to now completely change tack and discuss causes and blame then feel free but as i haven't been discussing that so far (and the rest have seen this obvious distinction as well...even salop said he won't be drawn into that as it's a separate matter) i won't partake if that's ok with you?
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Apr 17, 2014 13:26:35 GMT
Total rubbish mate. Liverpool were the only club that had angels for fans. no offence mate, but what the fuck has that got to do with the current discussion??? i don't see anyone, anywhere on this thread suggesting that Liverpool fans are blameless as usual stafford, if you can't make pertinent or constructive comments on such an emotive thread and show at least some modicum of sensitivity to the subject matter involved then it's best for you to stay the fuck out of it really But there are plenty that say they were blameless for Hillsborough. That us why they were the only football club in the land at that time that had angels for fans. Utter bollox. If Liverpool fc, the city and fans took SOME of the responsibility for what happened at hillsborough then they would get a lot more respect from other clubs fans.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:28:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:28:08 GMT
it's not inconsistent though..... i have said countless times how Liverpool DO remember those that died at Heysel, people on here have said it isn't enough. i am asking what else should they be doing exactly? as per usual though no-one wants to answer that simply because they don't really know, they just want a cheap excuse to blame Liverpool for Hillsborough being a bigger media story, blaming Liverpool because the Bradford, Ibrox etc. disasters don't get as much media attention and some last week were even having a go at Liverpool because kick off times were delayed!!! as i have pointed out on several occasions (but as per on here, people conveniently ignore it!), the media coverage of Hillsborough is because it is an ongoing story...the lack of media coverage of other disasters is because they have been settled in terms of justice being done (and have fuck all to do with Liverpool anyway) and the delays in kick offs etc. may rankle with some as being seen as treating that disaster as more important but that is down to the FA NOT liverpool. it's simple lack of common sense, lack of accurate facts and cheap excuses to blame Liverpool when in actual fact the people on here that are pissed off should be blaming the FA and the media...Liverpool haven't done anything to cheapen any other disasters or make this seem more important than them, it's just fuckin idiots on here who either don't have the facts or choose to ignore them ot suit their argument that have implied they have done so just so they have something to get pissed off with Liverpool about and to lower themselves to that level given the amount of people that died in all those disasters by blaming it all on Liverpool (when Heysel was the only thing they have responsibility for) is sick! Heysel, hillsborough, the Bradford fire, Ibrox etc. were all terrible tragedies where there was far too much loss of life...unfortunately though some on here are ignoring facts and choosing to see these disasters not as horrible and tragic events but simply ammunition to slag off Liverpool FC....it's an absolute disgrace and makes me embarrassed to be a Stoke fan! we are obviously thinking down different paths, I was merely saying the differences between the situations of fans of a club being involved and not and not blaming Liverpool FC, your post said a 'a compelte lack of consistency by posters on here' your answer to me wasn't consistent with the clubs and supporters behavior attending the matches, Forest and Lincoln supporters were merely attending and weren't involved in what happened so probably don't see the need for memorials etc. , Liverpool fans were directly involved in the deaths of the Juventus supporters so probably Liverpool FC feel they need to be more involved ok fair enough but involved in what though? i've asked this about 5 times so far...what more should they do exactly? as far as i know Juventus hold 29th May as a day of remembrance (as do Liverpool) and have a memorial for the dead (as do Liverpool) but Juventus themselves don't do any more than that so what should Liverpool be doing?
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Apr 17, 2014 13:29:12 GMT
So what caused the tragedy at Hillsbourgh has nothing to do with it 8-|now that's an interesting theory, what do you think it was that caused that sudden crush or do you not have any views on that, 25 years on and we still have not established the cause strange that. i'm struggling to see the relevance of this to anything we've been discussing mate....who caused what happened at Hillsborough isn't anything to do with a day of remembrance for the 96 that did die no. that day was simply to remember lost loved ones etc. the campaign for justice is a separate thing and one that is being dealt with 365 days of the year if you want to have an argument about who's fault Hillsborough was then crack on but i won't be joining in. i simply wondered what people wanted Liverpool to do about the Heysel disaster and why it's not Liverpool's fault that Hillsborough gets more media coverage than the rest, if you want to now completely change tack and discuss causes and blame then feel free but as i haven't been discussing that so far (and the rest have seen this obvious distinction as well...even salop said he won't be drawn into that as it's a separate matter) i won't partake if that's ok with you? Ignore my last post. I thought that was the road you were going down. I also agreed many pages ago that this thread was not good on that day which is why I commented no further.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:30:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:30:49 GMT
no offence mate, but what the fuck has that got to do with the current discussion??? i don't see anyone, anywhere on this thread suggesting that Liverpool fans are blameless as usual stafford, if you can't make pertinent or constructive comments on such an emotive thread and show at least some modicum of sensitivity to the subject matter involved then it's best for you to stay the fuck out of it really But there are plenty that say they were blameless for Hillsborough. That us why they were the only football club in the land at that time that had angels for fans. Utter bollox. If Liverpool fc, the city and fans took SOME of the responsibility for what happened at hillsborough then they would get a lot more respect from other clubs fans. to be fair mate i can't see any other messageboard apart from ours (and i have looked) that have even brought this up. every other message board seem to have just had a Hillsborough remembrance board if anything, no-one else has been slagging them off like some Stoke fans have been. and, again, the cause of Hillsborough etc. is not what people have been talking about.....some have basically said they are pissed off that people care more about Hillsborough than Heysel and some have taken exception to that and simply asked for a bit of respect to be shown. the remembrance etc. is NOT for Liverpool FC it's for the fans that died. who's fault that was is another subject and not what was actually being discussed on this thread. EDIT: Ignore this post then as i've just seen yours yeah, i said at the start if people want to argue the why's and wherefore's of blame and why some incidents are remembered and some aren't etc. can be argued by people ad infinitum and i don't mind that, i just saw no need on the particular day the thread started was all (and i saw you had pretty much the same stance..in fact i think i even "Liked" your post). like salop, i can;t be arsed to get into the whole "Were liverpool partially to blame for Hillsborough" etc. as we don't have the full facts or evidence (unless anyone wants to trawl through thousands of pages from all the previous reports) so it's all based on the bits we hear/see in the media so it's all going to be opinion based and dependent upon how individuals interpret that info and how cynical they are. i just don't like the way that some seem to only view Hillsborough as ammunition to batter Liverpool FC with...for me it's simply about the 96 that never came home, i'll leave the rest up to the authorities and those that have all the evidence, i certainly don't
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:34:35 GMT
Post by crapslinger on Apr 17, 2014 13:34:35 GMT
So what caused the tragedy at Hillsbourgh has nothing to do with it 8-|now that's an interesting theory, what do you think it was that caused that sudden crush or do you not have any views on that, 25 years on and we still have not established the cause strange that. i'm struggling to see the relevance of this to anything we've been discussing mate....who caused what happened at Hillsborough isn't anything to do with a day of remembrance for the 96 that did die no. that day was simply to remember lost loved ones etc. the campaign for justice is a separate thing and one that is being dealt with 365 days of the year if you want to have an argument about who's fault Hillsborough was then crack on but i won't be joining in. i simply wondered what people wanted Liverpool to do about the Heysel disaster and why it's not Liverpool's fault that Hillsborough gets more media coverage than the rest, if you want to now completely change tack and discuss causes and blame then feel free but as i haven't been discussing that so far (and the rest have seen this obvious distinction as well...even salop said he won't be drawn into that as it's a separate matter) i won't partake if that's ok with you? No I am not looking for an argument about who's fault it was I was simply asking your opinion on the sequence of events that lead to the crush, you appear to have a lot to say in defence of Liverpool so I thought you may have some knowledge of the cause, 365 days a year for 25 years and still no conclusion !
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 13:37:36 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:37:36 GMT
i'm struggling to see the relevance of this to anything we've been discussing mate....who caused what happened at Hillsborough isn't anything to do with a day of remembrance for the 96 that did die no. that day was simply to remember lost loved ones etc. the campaign for justice is a separate thing and one that is being dealt with 365 days of the year if you want to have an argument about who's fault Hillsborough was then crack on but i won't be joining in. i simply wondered what people wanted Liverpool to do about the Heysel disaster and why it's not Liverpool's fault that Hillsborough gets more media coverage than the rest, if you want to now completely change tack and discuss causes and blame then feel free but as i haven't been discussing that so far (and the rest have seen this obvious distinction as well...even salop said he won't be drawn into that as it's a separate matter) i won't partake if that's ok with you? No I am not looking for an argument about who's fault it was I was simply asking your opinion on the sequence of events that lead to the crush, you appear to have a lot to say in defence of Liverpool so I thought you may have some knowledge of the cause, 365 days a year for 25 years and still no conclusion ! in which case you obviously haven't read or understood any of my posts if you think i'm defending Liverpool for hillsborough...i have no more facts than are currently publically available and i don't ever recall laying the blame anywhere for what happened at Hillsborough or defending Liverpool for the Hillsborough incident.defending them for wanting to commemorate and show remembrance for what happened is nothing like defending them for the actual incident at all.i haven't defended them because up until you posed the question, no-one has really been discussing the cause of what happened anyway. you may want to try reading my posts again if you think i have defended Liverpool for the Hillsborough tragedy. defending them for the lack of coverage the Bradford fire gets or for what they have done to commemorate Heysel is a different thing to defending them for Hillsborough which i never have and not because i think they have any blame attached to them or conversely that they are completely blameless but simply because i (like you) do not have the access to the evidence or the legal education and grounding to come to accurate conclusions.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 14:02:06 GMT
Post by Northy on Apr 17, 2014 14:02:06 GMT
we are obviously thinking down different paths, I was merely saying the differences between the situations of fans of a club being involved and not and not blaming Liverpool FC, your post said a 'a compelte lack of consistency by posters on here' your answer to me wasn't consistent with the clubs and supporters behavior attending the matches, Forest and Lincoln supporters were merely attending and weren't involved in what happened so probably don't see the need for memorials etc. , Liverpool fans were directly involved in the deaths of the Juventus supporters so probably Liverpool FC feel they need to be more involved ok fair enough but involved in what though? i've asked this about 5 times so far...what more should they do exactly? as far as i know Juventus hold 29th May as a day of remembrance (as do Liverpool) and have a memorial for the dead (as do Liverpool) but Juventus themselves don't do any more than that so what should Liverpool be doing? What they are doing already, I said they 'feel' they need to be more involved so they are; it's as opposed to what Forest and Lincoln feel the need to do.
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 14:02:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 14:02:54 GMT
ok fair enough but involved in what though? i've asked this about 5 times so far...what more should they do exactly? as far as i know Juventus hold 29th May as a day of remembrance (as do Liverpool) and have a memorial for the dead (as do Liverpool) but Juventus themselves don't do any more than that so what should Liverpool be doing? What they are doing already, I said they 'feel' they need to be more involved so they are; it's as opposed to what Forest and Lincoln feel the need to do. can't argue with that mate, fair point
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Heysel
Apr 17, 2014 14:06:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by imho on Apr 17, 2014 14:06:33 GMT
Not wanting to but in while you two argue about nowt but to answer the question about what caused the crush the answer has already been made public. Without going into too much detail it was to do with the gate being opened and the concourse not diverting people into the side pens (then a lack of action by various parties)
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