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Post by dadofsam on Feb 4, 2014 17:18:19 GMT
I think they've been very lucky. Beating Man Utd has put everyone in such a good mood. On Friday Night people were furious and demanding sackings.
For me they have yet again failed to find and recruit the players we needed. In a way it doesn't matter what constraints they are working under, it is their job to find and bring in players working to the brief they are given. They seem to be getting away with it by pushing all the blame towards agents, greedy players, unscrupulous chairmen etc. etc. Makes you wonder what constitutes failure in their world.
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Post by Jimm on Feb 4, 2014 17:21:50 GMT
Scholes out
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Post by luke45 on Feb 4, 2014 17:26:12 GMT
I was reading in the papers at work this morning ( it was either the independent or the daily mail, can't remember which ) that we actually had the opportunity to speak to Cattermole earlier in the window but said we'd prefer to do our negotiations with him on the final day. If that is true then I really do despair. EDIT: Found the link here, it was indeed the Daily Mail! www.tribalfootball.com/articles/sunderland-blocked-cattermole-late-stoke-switch-4005958 |
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Post by blurtonboy on Feb 4, 2014 17:31:36 GMT
I once heard that Davesviews, Monkeycat, Hackett & Cilla, had their pulse on the finger regarding SCFC transfers.
Seems like that was another piece of media bollocks.
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Post by capto on Feb 4, 2014 17:32:12 GMT
Well, players aren't gonna come to stoke because 'they supported the club since they were a kid', they're only gonna come if we pay top whack. So that limits us to players who are either a bit desperate/unhappy where they are, want to use us a stepping stone, or maybe get in the shop window for selection for their country in the world cup.
I kinda agree that we shouldn't just break the bank for the more cynical mercenaries - we need to get players who can play, but with the work ethic.
And team ethic - there's always a risk with flair players that they won't work in our set up & we seem to operate on a very limited depth in quality.
But, can we argue with the club? We put in a few quid a week, but they are putting in millions; we have to believe and hope they know what they are doing. A bit of transparency & openness from the club would help; however, what ever they say, seems to me, it'll be dissected on here & lots of people will use it as an opportunity to slag them off & come up with what they should & shouldn't do blah blah blah.
We need to maintain a united (hate that word!) front in support of the club and players, if we want more performances like Satdee's?
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 4, 2014 17:33:13 GMT
Who knows what really went on - and where the blame is to lay.
We don't.
The Coates family do and if they thought that the incompetency of their employees risked losing SCFC millions then they'd be absolute fools not to act quickly.
I can only surmise that the owners are happy with how their employees behaved.
There's far too many people jumping to conclusions about what actually happened and who's to blame without having the foggiest idea of what really went on.
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Post by Sergeant Muttley on Feb 4, 2014 17:34:33 GMT
Useless pair of overpaid cnuts.
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Post by Big J on Feb 4, 2014 17:38:10 GMT
The two deals that fell through had nothing to do with our transfer team. Everything was agreed for the Cattermole deal and the Pitroipa deal was the fault of the Rennes management not getting the deal through on time.
Cartwright has no doubt improved our network and the targets we have been linked with prove this, we all have our doubts about Scholes, but you don't win CEO of the year for nothing. He's a businessman and does the best for the club off the pitch.
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Post by f1rew0rks on Feb 4, 2014 17:43:48 GMT
Most wanted the transfers done early and not left till the last day .... so the deals were done early and not left till the last day. But because they didnt close deals on the last day they are seen as failures?? How strange?
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Post by robwahlmann on Feb 4, 2014 17:48:43 GMT
Most wanted the transfers done early and not left till the last day .... so the deals were done early and not left till the last day. But because they didnt close deals on the last day they are seen as failures?? How strange? Deals done early!? Are we talking about Guidetti here? The striker piching splinters out of the arse after some week here! Come off it, this is just too stuid!  |
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Post by mcf on Feb 4, 2014 17:55:11 GMT
Pieters is decent although I don't think he's any better than Wilson.
Ireland is good....
Odemwingie is promising.
Assaidi and Arnie could both do ok.....Assaidi's winner v Chelsea was obviously a big moment.
Even Pennant could be argued as decent for that winner alone.
Overall, I think that is ok.
Still plenty to prove but I think it could have been a lot worse.
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Feb 4, 2014 17:56:32 GMT
Who knows what really went on - and where the blame is to lay. We don't. The Coates family do and if they thought that the incompetency of their employees risked losing SCFC millions then they'd be absolute fools not to act quickly. I can only surmise that the owners are happy with how their employees behaved. There's far too many people jumping to conclusions about what actually happened and who's to blame without having the foggiest idea of what really went on. Of course 'the family' are happy because nothing was spent! One of the few teams where the net spend was zero pounds! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2014 17:58:00 GMT
I'm more worried that our targets were cattermole and ince in the first place
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Post by Miles Offside on Feb 4, 2014 18:09:39 GMT
I think they've been very lucky. Beating Man Utd has put everyone in such a good mood. On Friday Night people were furious and demanding sackings. For me they have yet again failed to find and recruit the players we needed. In a way it doesn't matter what constraints they are working under, it is their job to find and bring in players working to the brief they are given. They seem to be getting away with it by pushing all the blame towards agents, greedy players, unscrupulous chairmen etc. etc. Makes you wonder what constitutes failure in their world. It'd be easier to judge the transfer team if we knew their brief and the restrictions they work under. If they've got money to spend and can't get deals finished, then they're a disaster. Or if the owners aren't making the necessary funds available, they're on a hiding to nothing. The truth will probably come to light this summer when a good chunk of the squad run out of contract and Hughes will want to re-build the squad. |
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 4, 2014 18:53:05 GMT
Who knows what really went on - and where the blame is to lay. We don't. The Coates family do and if they thought that the incompetency of their employees risked losing SCFC millions then they'd be absolute fools not to act quickly. I can only surmise that the owners are happy with how their employees behaved. There's far too many people jumping to conclusions about what actually happened and who's to blame without having the foggiest idea of what really went on. Of course 'the family' are happy because nothing was spent! One of the few teams where the net spend was zero pounds! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2014 18:58:52 GMT
Mamma Mia!
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Post by jezzascfc on Feb 4, 2014 19:04:47 GMT
We won't keep getting away with it - if we stand still we will go backwards compared to the competition! Once more of the overpriced dead wood exits stage left in the next year or so, we can really rebuild and see what Cartwright and his cronies are made of. I think some contemplation and taking stock was needed after Pulis, but we must really flex the new Sky provided financial muscle this coming summer and lay down the foundations for the future if we are not simply going to slip towards relegation in the next couple of years.
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Post by Stoke711 on Feb 4, 2014 19:21:56 GMT
I still think they're shit. They have admitted to missing targets, leaving it till last min trying to get a deal done. Think we'd be better off without them.
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Post by ukcstokie on Feb 4, 2014 19:27:35 GMT
I think they've been very lucky. Beating Man Utd has put everyone in such a good mood. On Friday Night people were furious and demanding sackings. For me they have yet again failed to find and recruit the players we needed. In a way it doesn't matter what constraints they are working under, it is their job to find and bring in players working to the brief they are given. They seem to be getting away with it by pushing all the blame towards agents, greedy players, unscrupulous chairmen etc. etc. Makes you wonder what constitutes failure in their world. It'd be easier to judge the transfer team if we knew their brief and the restrictions they work under. If they've got money to spend and can't get deals finished, then they're a disaster. Or if the owners aren't making the necessary funds available, they're on a hiding to nothing. The truth will probably come to light this summer when a good chunk of the squad run out of contract and Hughes will want to re-build the squad. |
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Post by captainmainwaring on Feb 4, 2014 19:54:02 GMT
Tin hat on here.
I think that the criticism of Messrs Scholes and Cartwright is a little harsh and naive,borne out of frustration and stress caused by perceived failure, of the said two, to secure new players. Tony Scholes is the CEO at Stoke City and, I assume, carries out the business policy for the whole company as agreed by the board of directors. If a player is offered to Stoke City, and they are interested in that player, then Tony Scholes must negotiate with the selling club and the player's agent to see if a deal can be agreed. Prior to these negotiations I would have thought that Stoke had put their own valuation on said player and they would know what salary they were prepared to pay and they would know how much the agent should be getting. So if the selling club put a valuation on a player that is 50% higher than Stoke's, if the agent wants to double his players salary which would make him the top earner at Stoke and then the agent wants a 1m for brokering the deal, what does Tony Scholes do? Does he try to get the selling club to reduce the transfer fee and get the agent to reduce both the player's and his own demands or just pay what's being asked. I think he tries,and should,to negotiate a deal. Sometimes he wins and sometimes he loses. When deals fall through for a player, like all supporters, I'm frustrated but I don't blame Tony Scholes for the failure I just think a deal couldn't be done.
As for Mark Cartwright, is he involved with getting players in to the academy? I don't know whether he is or not but I'm going to assume that he is. I see his brief as identifying any potential player, whatever his age, who may be beneficial to Stoke City FC. So if MH wants a CD, for instance, MC will have a list of players who may fit the criteria and it would be up to MH to make his choice. However identifying players is one job, getting them to sign is another............just my opinion of course.
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Post by MuddyWoody on Feb 4, 2014 20:34:36 GMT
Scholes out!
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Feb 4, 2014 20:37:51 GMT
The difficulty with all this is that you're never dealing on a level playing field and rarely dealing with level headed folk.
Most footballers spend more time thinking about their next hair do/tattoo/car/girlfriend than their next Club.
It's the impetuousness of youth, human nature, as much as it is that they're all thickos. Though many are.
A lot of agents are unscrupulous gets, Chairman want to star as a Bond Villain and the media wind it all up.
A lot of cliché I know but a lot of it is true.
And we subscribe to it.
Stoke have sailed through this nonsense fairly serenely:
Let down by the fact that there were a gaggle of toms and a TV crew peeping through office windows at base camp.
-We didn't lose any key players, nor destabilise them with transfer talk.
-We didn't compromise the wage structure.
-Wise business regarding Jones.
Cash plus a lower waged motivated fresh face in Odemwingie {who may actually be worth £1.5mil+/- if his WC ambitions become a reality. Strengthened the right flank, a pacy striker with a great work rate to buzz around Crouchie too.
-Wise business regarding Jermaine Pennant. His time at Stoke had run it's course.
-I'm not yet convinced by Ireland's onfield contribution, at the time I thought that his permanent signing was less driven by his usefulness and more about getting Guidetti in. I don't think releasing Ireland was an option nor a good move. Probably worth the risk but if Guidetti isn't used it'll look a bit fruitless. Far too soon to judge. The new direction is about taking a few {calculated} risks on 'potential'.
-Sensible use of the loan out system with Shea and Ness, the assessment will be better with game time.
Shotton's recall as defensive cover in Huth's continued absence was a good move.
-The Agudelo situ could have gotten messier, but the move to Utrecht seemed be smooth.
All that business was completed in good order and early as promised.
We shouldn't have got sucked into the Ince charabang, knowing we didn't have a free loan spot.
And we got sucked into a bit of last day madness, with Cattermole and Pritoipa which got Peter saying that the window was 'depressing'.
On the whole I'm not disappointed. But then never really expected much.
I'm hoping that now the window has shut, we are left with an established group of players who he's getting a better tune out of while he's assessing them. A few from last summer who are starting to click in. Players returning from injury, hopefully we've suffered more than our share of harsh suspensions so that'll be it. With the potential to freshen up the attack. A bit of continued tweaking and we're in a good position to kick on.
While several of our rivals have a riskier path of integrating their acquisitions.
{of course if it doesn't work out I might change my mind.}
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Post by stokiejoe on Feb 4, 2014 20:45:46 GMT
still think. they are poor quality and need replacing with better.
The Ireland signing should have been made on 1st January.
We had targets according to both Coates and Hughes, we failed to complete them.
We could and should have brought in the foriegn loan befire leaving it to the last hour, knowing that Ince only wanted a loan deal.
We did this with the previous manager who had a different backroom team.
We have messed up several work permits.
'
The common denominator is the transfer teamwho needs to be replaced before summer.
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Post by baystokie on Feb 4, 2014 21:27:01 GMT
still think. they are poor quality and need replacing with better. The Ireland signing should have been made on 1st January. We had targets according to both Coates and Hughes, we failed to complete them. We could and should have brought in the foriegn loan befire leaving it to the last hour, knowing that Ince only wanted a loan deal. We did this with the previous manager who had a different backroom team. We have messed up several work permits. ' The common denominator is the transfer teamwho needs to be replaced before summer. Very simplistic, if I may say so. Ireland - Villa and Ireland were involved so we could not dictate when - negotiations are not like that? Targets - similarly had to talk to clubs, players, agents - any of these could scuttle deals or drag them on waiting for better. Foreign loan - as for other targets, maybe Rennes would not let him go till late? I don't profess to know Work permits - do you try to get them BEFORE a deal is done so you know the result beforehand? This could eat up a lot of time in the window so maybe that's why you go for a permit after the signing? Replace the transfer team - with whom? - do you have some recruits in mind? |
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Post by stokiejoe on Feb 4, 2014 21:41:55 GMT
still think. they are poor quality and need replacing with better. The Ireland signing should have been made on 1st January. We had targets according to both Coates and Hughes, we failed to complete them. We could and should have brought in the foriegn loan befire leaving it to the last hour, knowing that Ince only wanted a loan deal. We did this with the previous manager who had a different backroom team. We have messed up several work permits. ' The common denominator is the transfer teamwho needs to be replaced before summer. Very simplistic, if I may say so. Ireland - Villa and Ireland were involved so we could not dictate when - negotiations are not like that? Targets - similarly had to talk to clubs, players, agents - any of these could scuttle deals or drag them on waiting for better. Foreign loan - as for other targets, maybe Rennes would not let him go till late? I don't profess to know Work permits - do you try to get them BEFORE a deal is done so you know the result beforehand? This could eat up a lot of time in the window so maybe that's why you go for a permit after the signing? Replace the transfer team - with whom? - do you have some recruits in mind? Absolutely simplistic as you say because none of us know what went on. However when it happens three windows in a row but other clubs don't have such problems it is worthy of investigation. The Villa one I don't. accept as they clearly didn't want him having had him training with the juniors. If an approach had been made in principle if no more a quick deal could have been put in place. The work permit situation has been a cock up a few times now and you will recall, outside the transfer window as they were free agents. It is quite usual to negotiate several deals with a number of targets and have them in place bar the acual signing. Yes negotiating is not simple but that is why you employ people who are expert in the field, we fail far too frequently. |
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Post by captainmainwaring on Feb 4, 2014 21:47:32 GMT
still think. they are poor quality and need replacing with better. The Ireland signing should have been made on 1st January. We had targets according to both Coates and Hughes, we failed to complete them. We could and should have brought in the foriegn loan befire leaving it to the last hour, knowing that Ince only wanted a loan deal. We did this with the previous manager who had a different backroom team. We have messed up several work permits. ' The common denominator is the transfer teamwho needs to be replaced before summer. It's easy to say that Ireland should have been signed on January 1st. Perhaps Stoke offered to take over Ireland's contract in December hoping to get him signed by January 1st and Ireland wanted a longer deal. It obviously took a couple of weeks of negotiating before he came round to accepting our terms. Coates and Hughes did say that we had targets but for one reason or another they failed to materialise. Hughes also said that he had been misled. That could mean the selling club reneged on a transfer fee, agents told lies etc. You imply ( I think ) by saying both Coates and Hughes said we had targets, that failure to complete rests solely on Scholes and Cartwrights shoulders but what if Coates was the one who said we would not pay an over inflated transfer fee or ridiculous wage demands. If Stoke offered £4m for Ince then they must have thought that there was a chance of getting him. Once that bid was knocked back they attempted and almost succeeded in getting a foreign player in on loan. |
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Post by djduncanjames on Feb 4, 2014 21:51:10 GMT
Just going to weigh in here for a sec...
Hughes presser a few weeks back after the Monaco debacle, when he looked a defeated man, was that the fault of Scholes and Carto? As much as I want to blame someone, I think that lies squarely with Monaco, and Falcao's freak injury. To think a world class striker like Falcao has somehow scuppered a deal for Stoke, I think goes to show we are moving in the right direction, and looking in the right areas?
I can say however there seemed time to salvage a deal somehow with other potential targets before the DD, and was super underwhelmed by Cattermole and Fletcher links, which is when I started to ask questions of Scholes and Carto.
So ya I'm not sure what to think really, but just I thought I'd raise the above points to offer some balance...
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Post by bmstoke on Feb 4, 2014 21:56:43 GMT
still think. they are poor quality and need replacing with better. The Ireland signing should have been made on 1st January. We had targets according to both Coates and Hughes, we failed to complete them. We could and should have brought in the foriegn loan befire leaving it to the last hour, knowing that Ince only wanted a loan deal. We did this with the previous manager who had a different backroom team. We have messed up several work permits. ' The common denominator is the transfer teamwho needs to be replaced before summer. Very simplistic, if I may say so. Ireland - Villa and Ireland were involved so we could not dictate when - negotiations are not like that? Targets - similarly had to talk to clubs, players, agents - any of these could scuttle deals or drag them on waiting for better. Foreign loan - as for other targets, maybe Rennes would not let him go till late? I don't profess to know Work permits - do you try to get them BEFORE a deal is done so you know the result beforehand? This could eat up a lot of time in the window so maybe that's why you go for a permit after the signing? Replace the transfer team - with whom? - do you have some recruits in mind? Joe Kinnear's available  . |
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Post by captainmainwaring on Feb 4, 2014 21:59:45 GMT
Just going to weigh in here for a sec... Hughes presser a few weeks back after the Monaco debacle, when he looked a defeated man, was that the fault of Scholes and Carto? As much as I want to blame someone, I think that lies squarely with Monaco, and Falcao's freak injury. To think a world class striker like Falcao has somehow scuppered a deal for Stoke, I think goes to show we are moving in the right direction, and looking in the right areas? I can say however there seemed time to salvage a deal somehow with other potential targets before the DD, and was super underwhelmed by Cattermole and Fletcher links, which is when I started to ask questions of Scholes and Carto. So ya I'm not sure what to think really, but just I thought I'd raise the above points to offer some balance... Mark Hughes must have made the decision to go for Cattermole. If you were underwhelmed by that you must blame him not Scholes and Carto. MH, Scholes and Carto may have been as underwhelmed as you with Fletcher. Don't blame them for press speculation. |
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Post by stokiejoe on Feb 4, 2014 22:05:41 GMT
catch me once shame on you
catch me twice shame on me
catch me three windows in a row?
Something appears to be wrong.
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