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Post by MuddyWoody on Jan 20, 2014 13:39:30 GMT
I've had a couple of days to calm down and reflect on the performance at Palace and the one performance that stuck out for me was N'Zonzi's.
I'm starting to wonder exactly what it is that he brings to the team. I think we can all agree he brings very little to the table going forward, no incisive passes, no mazy runs, little to get excited about. But you can forgive him that as he's supposed to be a defensive midfielder.
So defensively what does he add? As far as I can tell his tackling and energy isn't on a par with Whelan currently. He does frequently make himself available for forward passes out of defence, but then more often than not passes the ball backwards again, rather than turning and looking for options, sometimes putting the receiving player under opposition pressure. He is very comfortable on the ball but recently we haven't seen that quality much with all the backwards passes. At the moment I'm struggling to justify his starting place.
Am I missing some qualities that he brings to the team, or have I got it spot on?
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Post by Gods on Jan 20, 2014 13:49:39 GMT
I thought his best qualities were his ability to extend a leg and nick the ball away or make an interception, the fact that he almost never gave the ball away, and he is an excellent athlete.
My perception this season has been that he is trying to be more expansive and the consequence of this ambition is that the defensive side of his game has suffered and I would guess his successful passing percentages are not what they were.
And I am probably in a minority of one with this but I do think he tries hard. I'd certainly stick with him.
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Post by adamsson on Jan 20, 2014 13:56:44 GMT
I've had a couple of days to calm down and reflect on the performance at Palace and the one performance that stuck out for me was N'Zonzi's. I'm starting to wonder exactly what it is that he brings to the team. I think we can all agree he brings very little to the table going forward, no incisive passes, no mazy runs, little to get excited about. But you can forgive him that as he's supposed to be a defensive midfielder. So defensively what does he add? As far as I can tell his tackling and energy isn't on a par with Whelan currently. He does frequently make himself available for forward passes out of defence, but then more often than not passes the ball backwards again, rather than turning and looking for options, sometimes putting the receiving player under opposition pressure. He is very comfortable on the ball but recently we haven't seen that quality much with all the backwards passes. At the moment I'm struggling to justify his starting place. Am I missing some qualities that he brings to the team, or have I got it spot on? Best get your tin hat on and get ready for lots of people saying "If you can't see what he brings to the game you know nothing about football!" Of course they never say what he brings to the game
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Post by snapper23 on Jan 20, 2014 13:58:55 GMT
He is a real enigma. so much talent and a great athelete and yet you always feel he's only giving 70 per cent. Under Pulis maybe- I guess there were issues but under Hughes who rates him why cant he really get stuck in and give 100pc. He's another one like KJ- remember him at Sunderland- red hot- but for us- a make weight at best.
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Post by StokieAsh13 on Jan 20, 2014 14:04:49 GMT
I thought his best qualities were his ability to extend a leg and nick the ball away or make an interception, the fact that he almost never gave the ball away, and he is an excellent athlete. My perception this season has been that he is trying to be more expansive and the consequence of this ambition is that the defensive side of his game has suffered and I would guess his successful passing percentages are not what they were. And I am probably in a minority of one with this but I do think he tries hard. I'd certainly stick with him. This for sure. He came to stoke and was asked to play in a different way, he is now being asked to play his natural game, that seems to be taking a little time to come back together. I see it as a confidence thing in all fairness. I like him, id prefer him in the team than out of it.
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Post by MuddyWoody on Jan 20, 2014 14:07:43 GMT
Probably part of the frustration with him on my part is that he undoubtedly has great ability, which shows in how comfortable he is on the ball, I just would just like to see him show it more on the pitch. I've had a couple of days to calm down and reflect on the performance at Palace and the one performance that stuck out for me was N'Zonzi's. I'm starting to wonder exactly what it is that he brings to the team. I think we can all agree he brings very little to the table going forward, no incisive passes, no mazy runs, little to get excited about. But you can forgive him that as he's supposed to be a defensive midfielder. So defensively what does he add? As far as I can tell his tackling and energy isn't on a par with Whelan currently. He does frequently make himself available for forward passes out of defence, but then more often than not passes the ball backwards again, rather than turning and looking for options, sometimes putting the receiving player under opposition pressure. He is very comfortable on the ball but recently we haven't seen that quality much with all the backwards passes. At the moment I'm struggling to justify his starting place. Am I missing some qualities that he brings to the team, or have I got it spot on? Best get your tin hat on and get ready for lots of people saying "If you can't see what he brings to the game you know nothing about football!" Of course they never say what he brings to the game TH already donned
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 20, 2014 14:14:42 GMT
He has ability to be a £20m player he can defend is athletic can get forward and can score , yet is a £2m player and he has only himself to blame for that as far as I can see because he so often only seems to want to do the bare minimum, that is why he frustrates me . The comparison with Jones is a good one another player who plays way below his ability most of the time
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N'Zonzi
Jan 20, 2014 14:17:15 GMT
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Post by scfcno1fan on Jan 20, 2014 14:17:15 GMT
He currently adds nothing.
The only reason he has not been dropped is the lack of an adequate replacement.
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Post by Bowyer83 on Jan 20, 2014 17:09:47 GMT
He is a good player but sometimes looks un-interested and you have to question his passion playing for the club.
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N'Zonzi
Jan 20, 2014 18:39:57 GMT
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 20, 2014 18:39:57 GMT
If your one abiding performance from the weekend is that of N'zonzi, rather than the likes of Crouch, Walters, Wilson, Assaidi and Cameron, then I am more than a tad bemused.
I didn't think N'zonzi or Whelan were too bad, particurly up to the moment they scored.
We were in control of the game and had 4 decent chances to take the lead. Our problems started when they scored as we had no guile to break down the famous TP back 10.
EDIT - at this point it might be worth remembering our effort against Manure in the cup when N'zonzi was missing!
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Post by MuddyWoody on Jan 20, 2014 19:23:09 GMT
If your one abiding performance from the weekend is that of N'zonzi, rather than the likes of Crouch, Walters, Wilson, Assaidi and Cameron, then I am more than a tad bemused. I didn't think N'zonzi or Whelan were too bad, particurly up to the moment they scored. We were in control of the game and had 4 decent chances to take the lead. Our problems started when they scored as we had no guile to break down the famous TP back 10. EDIT - at this point it might be worth remembering our effort against Manure in the cup when N'zonzi was missing! Barring a couple of good crosses in the first half I thought Assaidi was awful, and in my opinion their goal was down to him passing the ball in his own box rather than getting rid. The way he pulled out of two 50/50 challenges also irked me more than a little. However, trying and being poor is better than not attempting to use your talent, which is how I feel about N'Zonzi's recent performances. Wilson has also had a couple of poor games, but before that I thought he was deputising for Huth very well. I'm actually a fan of Cameron. I think he's improved massively from when he first arrived and shows talent going forward. For me it could be worth trying him in midfield with Whelan.
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Post by jeycov on Jan 20, 2014 19:25:39 GMT
Nzonzi low on confidence in my opinion - trouble is, it may be spreading through the team.
We need a win or even a point - please
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jan 20, 2014 19:29:17 GMT
I think the OP has a point.
My view on him is this. He stood out in a Tony Pulis side, because he was the only midfielder we had to take the sting out of the game, put his foot on it, look around and play it simple. He was a joy to behold with the likes of Whitehead and Whelan around him, and the constant bypassing of the midfield from the back. Calm and collected was something we hadn't seen for years at The Brit. However, now we're looking to be a bit more expansive, and looking to pass the ball a bit more from back to front, he looks too slow and lethargic. When before it was nice to see him put his foot on it and slow it down and keep the ball for once, we now need him to get it and play it forwards more often, something he seems incapable of doing. Too many times in games a counter attack will break down because he takes half an hour on the ball.
If he wanted to be, he could be a very effective midfielder at this level week in week out. Not world class, but very very good. But his attitude, coupled with his laid back approach make him one of the most frustrating players we've had in a good while.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jan 20, 2014 19:30:59 GMT
I'm of the opinion that bringing in someone better than N'Zonzi would be the catalyst to make N'Zonzi himself perform better. I'd be looking to ship out Whelan, personally.
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Post by wuzza on Jan 20, 2014 19:41:03 GMT
Just part of the overall problem. Too many come day go day players who may turn it on a bit ... but probably wont. We are supposed to faint at the genius of the likes of Nzonzi, Arnie etc but in reality it aint worth bugger all because it just doesnt win enough games. We are stuck in no-mans land, wanting skillful players playing pretty pretty stuff but not able to afford the ones who can really do it. We are left with cheap imitations and its the road to hell if we dont manage to find some hidden gems from somewhere or get some hard workers in who can play with a bit of organisation !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 19:58:06 GMT
NZonzi could be great.
He's at Stoke because he is flawed and is his own worst enemy. I'd drop him in a heartbeat at the moment. I'd seriously play Palacios before him but realistically would try Cameron in midfield and recall Wilko as we are desperate for a bit of fire in the belly.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 20, 2014 21:15:14 GMT
What exactly do you expect from N'zonzi? I don't mean that in any other way than a straight question.
N'zonzi is currently featuring as part of a 3 man midfield where his main job, based on what I am watching is to break up opposition play, ensure we retain possession of the ball and to somehow farm that ball out to our so-called forward/creative players.
The fact that Adam is seeing so much of the ball is in no small measure down to N'zonzi. Yes he has his faults but he isn't playing badly in my opinion. He is hamstrung by a complete lack of options ahead of him.
Take Saturday as the example. First and foremost we enjoyed 57% of possession. 61% according to some reports but I am just taking the lowest figure I saw. To have done that, as part of a partnership, he must have contributed.
He is also there to shovel the ball out to our better players. Adam had 3 shots at goal that went close to going on. On each occasion it was N'zonzi that fed him the ball or who was involved in the build up.
N'zonzi was also the main feeder of Assaidi who again saw plenty of the ball and did fuck all with it. One beautiful raking cross field pass stands out immediately in my mind.
N'zonzi was also there help our defence. He did that. As a team, an individual error aside, we looked solid and up to the 90th minute, when they had 2 break aways, we never looked like we would concede a goal. We were pretty solid and 0-0 should have been the worst result we came away with. Again, another example of N'zonzi doing his job.
I think criticism of both him and Whelan is very harsh. N'zonzi has been pretty solid, if unspectacular, all season long. Whelan has done great since coming back into the team though Saturday wasn't one of his better performances.
What exactly do you expect of him? More goals? More creativity? What exactly? It is impossible to create anything for this bunch of forwards because none of them doing anything to enable our players to create for them. They don't make runs. They don't take people on and they don't get on the end of any crosses that may come their way.
Our forwards are crap and that in turn impacts on our midfield, who in my opinion, are doing a very decent job in near impossible circumstances.
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Post by alster on Jan 20, 2014 22:11:35 GMT
What exactly do you expect from N'zonzi? I don't mean that in any other way than a straight question. N'zonzi is currently featuring as part of a 3 man midfield where his main job, based on what I am watching is to break up opposition play, ensure we retain possession of the ball and to somehow farm that ball out to our so-called forward/creative players. The fact that Adam is seeing so much of the ball is in no small measure down to N'zonzi. Yes he has his faults but he isn't playing badly in my opinion. He is hamstrung by a complete lack of options ahead of him. Take Saturday as the example. First and foremost we enjoyed 57% of possession. 61% according to some reports but I am just taking the lowest figure I saw. To have done that, as part of a partnership, he must have contributed. He is also there to shovel the ball out to our better players. Adam had 3 shots at goal that went close to going on. On each occasion it was N'zonzi that fed him the ball or who was involved in the build up. N'zonzi was also the main feeder of Assaidi who again saw plenty of the ball and did fuck all with it. One beautiful raking cross field pass stands out immediately in my mind. N'zonzi was also there help our defence. He did that. As a team, an individual error aside, we looked solid and up to the 90th minute, when they had 2 break aways, we never looked like we would concede a goal. We were pretty solid and 0-0 should have been the worst result we came away with. Again, another example of N'zonzi doing his job. I think criticism of both him and Whelan is very harsh. N'zonzi has been pretty solid, if unspectacular, all season long. Whelan has done great since coming back into the team though Saturday wasn't one of his better performances. What exactly do you expect of him? More goals? More creativity? What exactly? It is impossible to create anything for this bunch of forwards because none of them doing anything to enable our players to create for them. They don't make runs. They don't take people on and they don't get on the end of any crosses that may come their way. Our forwards are crap and that in turn impacts on our midfield, who in my opinion, are doing a very decent job in near impossible circumstances. I like him Johnno but he's fustrating the life out of me. He's got the potential to drive the team forward, he needs to move forward with the ball a lot more often. He's strong and powerful and very composed on the ball. He has everything to be a poor mans Yaya Toure but for some unknown reason he simply won't do it. I'd not drop him but I would be compilng DVD's of moments when he has done the things I want to see him do consistently, sitting him down to watch them and saying, this is what I want more of from you, this is the sort of player I think you can be. Let Glen and Jonnny Walters look after the other shit, lets face it they're hardly capable of producing anything constructive but you are. Now get out there and do it show me you can be what I know you can.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 22:15:13 GMT
he is absolute wank
he could be a good player if he cared. his first instinct should be to try and drive us forward and use that athletic ability he has. he NEVER does. he cannot be arsed.
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N'Zonzi
Jan 20, 2014 22:18:01 GMT
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Post by stokemanusa on Jan 20, 2014 22:18:01 GMT
he is absolute wank he could be a good player if he cared. his first instinct should be to try and drive us forward and use that athletic ability he has. he NEVER does. he cannot be arsed. Sounds familiar... KJ? lol
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N'Zonzi
Jan 20, 2014 22:19:54 GMT
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Post by padders01 on Jan 20, 2014 22:19:54 GMT
He's best performance this season was at home against Sunderland when he was pushed further up the field.
He scored one and set up the other.
Not sure why he isn't used further up the pitch.
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N'Zonzi
Jan 20, 2014 22:52:50 GMT
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 20, 2014 22:52:50 GMT
What space did he have to drive us on into Alster?
Toure is surrounded by Negredo, Aguero, Silva, Dzeko, Navas and god knows who else who open up the pitch for him to bomb forward.
N'zonzi is surrounded by Crouch, Walters, Assaidi and Adam...players who actually play in a manner that closes up the pitch and the space.
Seriously, people expect things of him which in this team, with these forward options, is impossible for N'zonzi and others to deliver.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jan 21, 2014 0:00:52 GMT
He could be a top top player for us. Problem is he's mardarse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 0:53:30 GMT
Just part of the overall problem. Too many come day go day players who may turn it on a bit ... but probably wont. We are supposed to faint at the genius of the likes of Nzonzi, Arnie etc but in reality it aint worth bugger all because it just doesnt win enough games. We are stuck in no-mans land, wanting skillful players playing pretty pretty stuff but not able to afford the ones who can really do it. We are left with cheap imitations and its the road to hell if we dont manage to find some hidden gems from somewhere or get some hard workers in who can play with a bit of organisation ! A very concise and accurate summing up of our present predicament
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Jan 21, 2014 1:19:41 GMT
It's really frustrating to think that Stoke fans want N'Zonzi to be dropped. We would be royally fucked without him...
More intelligent movement around him would help no end.
A couple of times on satdee he was caught on the ball contemplating what to do with it while the rest of his team 'mates' stood and watched him. He was getting stuck in, legs, head and heart... communicating with colleagues and pointing them into place. He's awesome, our bad run last year coincided with his facial injury. The one game he missed this year {Man U CCup} we were a chaotic mess. Nevertheless he's not immune from a dip in form or below par performance, and I'm happy that MH will sub him if that's the case.
But please point your post-Palace shitty fingers elsewhere. N'Zonzi is the least of our worries.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jan 21, 2014 1:28:18 GMT
More intelligent movement around him would help no end. This is a massive problem we've had for years and if this can get sorted it would be a big step forward, personally I don't think it will change much with the players we have currently.
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Post by ashleyscfc on Jan 21, 2014 1:57:27 GMT
Genuinely struggle to understand if others watch the same game I do at times.
He's been carrying the midfield for months. The does everything well and simple, and yes he does slow the game down to allow others to catch up but he retains possession, 9 times out of 10 gets the ball to another stoke player, can carry it across the pitch into space. Holds off other players and sometimes busts a gut to get forward.
I thought he was one of the few that played well on Saturday, and with a better player next to him than Glen, and a player in front of him who has the energy to do their job, not the treacle running adam/ireland he could be a even better player.
How on earth people dont see Walters/Whelan as the weakest points in our team is beyond me. There is a lot wrong with our team at the moment but this idea that Whelan improving and Cameron learning to dribble has somehow made up for the massive frailties in the other parts of their game makes no sense. I think some people see what they want at times.
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Post by thedeadlyshart on Jan 21, 2014 4:57:18 GMT
He completes something like 60 passes per game, he's very accurate, and only turns the ball over about once per game. That's pretty good. It's true he does slow the pace unnecessarily at times, but he takes care of the football too.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Jan 21, 2014 8:51:17 GMT
What exactly do you expect from N'zonzi? I don't mean that in any other way than a straight question. N'zonzi is currently featuring as part of a 3 man midfield where his main job, based on what I am watching is to break up opposition play, ensure we retain possession of the ball and to somehow farm that ball out to our so-called forward/creative players. The fact that Adam is seeing so much of the ball is in no small measure down to N'zonzi. Yes he has his faults but he isn't playing badly in my opinion. He is hamstrung by a complete lack of options ahead of him. Take Saturday as the example. First and foremost we enjoyed 57% of possession. 61% according to some reports but I am just taking the lowest figure I saw. To have done that, as part of a partnership, he must have contributed. He is also there to shovel the ball out to our better players. Adam had 3 shots at goal that went close to going on. On each occasion it was N'zonzi that fed him the ball or who was involved in the build up. N'zonzi was also the main feeder of Assaidi who again saw plenty of the ball and did fuck all with it. One beautiful raking cross field pass stands out immediately in my mind. N'zonzi was also there help our defence. He did that. As a team, an individual error aside, we looked solid and up to the 90th minute, when they had 2 break aways, we never looked like we would concede a goal. We were pretty solid and 0-0 should have been the worst result we came away with. Again, another example of N'zonzi doing his job. I think criticism of both him and Whelan is very harsh. N'zonzi has been pretty solid, if unspectacular, all season long. Whelan has done great since coming back into the team though Saturday wasn't one of his better performances. What exactly do you expect of him? More goals? More creativity? What exactly? It is impossible to create anything for this bunch of forwards because none of them doing anything to enable our players to create for them. They don't make runs. They don't take people on and they don't get on the end of any crosses that may come their way. Our forwards are crap and that in turn impacts on our midfield, who in my opinion, are doing a very decent job in near impossible circumstances. I suppose my main gripe is that he is so reluctant to move the ball forward ten yards before playing a pass, and also reluctant to follow a short pass by getting past the recipient to offer an option. When Nzonzi picks the ball up and advances with it, all of a sudden options seem to open up and we actually look a decent team. I'm not asking him to try to beat a man, thats not his game, but when the space is there to advance into thats exactly what he should do, all to often he seems overly keen to get rid of it sideways to shawcross or wilson when he has space to move into.
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N'Zonzi
Jan 21, 2014 8:53:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by philb on Jan 21, 2014 8:53:09 GMT
He could be our Yaya Toure. Sadly he isn't..........
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