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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2013 11:05:06 GMT
I have been involved in some lengthy debates about our progression as a club this season and it pretty much started when an idiot acquaintance of mine jumped on the back of Jamie Redknapps comments about us being a number of points behind where we were last season as evidence that we are going backwards under Mark Hughes.
I have nailed my colours to the mast on this one and think that given time, Mark Hughes will go on and do a very decent job for us. He has come in to our club at a difficult time and has a hard task to follow a manager who had been at our club for a long time and who after being very successful eventually produced a team which cost a lot of money and was heading in only one direction.
After some banter over the weekend, this idiot mate of mine kept on about how we have gone backwards and how beating a poor Villa side means nothing. Hughes is wank. Hughes is a wanker and his team is shit and going backwards when compared to Tony Pulis. Apparently we are 2 places and 4 points worse off than the same stage last season having conceded more goals.
To me, such a claim doesn't really take into account the opposition faced or whether fixtures are/were skewed towards home and away games against which opposition so I set about having a look myself.
If you say that Palace are this years Reading, Hull are Wigan and Cardiff are QPR and take the points gathered on a corresponding fixture by fixture basis, we are actually faring pretty damn well really.
In the corresponding fixtures last season we got 15 points with a goal difference of -10 (12 goals for, 22 against) whereas this season we have accrued 20 points from the same set of fixtures with a goal difference of 0 (17 goals for, 17 against).
Given that we all recognise how desperate we are for a goalscorer and all recognise that we are playing in a way that doesn't involve 10 men at the back at all times regardless of the opposition or the score in the game, I was pleasantly surprised by these facts.
Given the weekly love of comparing all things Tony Pulis with all things Mark Hughes, I thought this information was pretty interesting. To date, under difficult circumstances, Mark Hughes is doing a very good job. Long may it continue.
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Post by Robo10 on Dec 23, 2013 11:09:18 GMT
Indeed - I think you only have to look on the pitch to see we are playing better football, and we are starting to create more, Crouch looks 100x better, it is getting there
Only one issue in your statement
"we got 15 points with a goal difference of -7 (12 goals for, 22 against"
12 for and 22 against is -10 :-)
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2013 11:12:18 GMT
Indeed - I think you only have to look on the pitch to see we are playing better football, and we are starting to create more, Crouch looks 100x better, it is getting there Only one issue in your statement "we got 15 points with a goal difference of -7 (12 goals for, 22 against" 12 for and 22 against is -10 :-) What you talking about? I said -10!  |
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Post by bertieb on Dec 23, 2013 11:13:59 GMT
Surely Palace should be QPR, Cardiff should be Reading and Hull should be Wigan, don't know whether that will make any difference. Interesting reading though
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 11:24:52 GMT
I have been involved in some lengthy debates about our progression as a club this season and it pretty much started when an idiot acquaintance of mine jumped on the back of Jamie Redknapps comments about us being a number of points behind where we were last season as evidence that we are going backwards under Mark Hughes. I have nailed my colours to the mast on this one and think that given time, Mark Hughes will go on and do a very decent job for us. He has come in to our club at a difficult time and has a hard task to follow a manager who had been at our club for a long time and who after being very successful eventually produced a team which cost a lot of money and was heading in only one direction. After some banter over the weekend, this idiot mate of mine kept on about how we have gone backwards and how beating a poor Villa side means nothing. Hughes is wank. Hughes is a wanker and his team is shit and going backwards when compared to Tony Pulis. Apparently we are 2 places and 4 points worse off than the same stage last season having conceded more goals. To me, such a claim doesn't really take into account the opposition faced or whether fixtures are/were skewed towards home and away games against which opposition so I set about having a look myself. If you say that Palace are this years Reading, Hull are Wigan and Cardiff are QPR and take the points gathered on a corresponding fixture by fixture basis, we are actually faring pretty damn well really. In the corresponding fixtures last season we got 15 points with a goal difference of -10 (12 goals for, 22 against) whereas this season we have accrued 20 points from the same set of fixtures with a goal difference of 0 (17 goals for, 17 against). Given that we all recognise how desperate we are for a goalscorer and all recognise that we are playing in a way that doesn't involve 10 men at the back at all times regardless of the opposition or the score in the game, I was pleasantly surprised by these facts. Given the weekly love of comparing all things Tony Pulis with all things Mark Hughes, I thought this information was pretty interesting. To date, under difficult circumstances, Mark Hughes is doing a very good job. Long may it continue. Cameron is our best outfield player this season. |
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Dec 23, 2013 11:26:23 GMT
TP last 17 games in charge
P17 W3 D4 L10 PTS 13
(big 6 opponents Chelsea H, Man United H, Spuds H, Arsenal A)
MH first 17
P17 W5 D5 L6 PTS 21
(Big 6 oponents Liverpool A, United A, Arsenal A, Chelsea H, Man City H)
8 extra points despite an extra game against top six opposition, and two extra away games against top 6 opposition)
Having picked up a team that looked low on confidence i think he's done a very creditable job.
We have ceratinly rode our luck at times, i have no idea how we've kept so many clean sheets despite looking shambolic at the back sometimes but had you offered me 21 points at Xmas at the start of the season, i would have bitten your hand off.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 11:27:32 GMT
I'm a lot calmer now than I was a month ago, that's for sure.  Time will tell whether Hughes can build his own successful side, but I'm now convinced that he is capable of rehabilitation post QPR, and that we can be a stable club under him. The next 4 games look tricky, and in terms of points taken last season I think we'll do well to pick up last seasons 5 points from Everton/Liverpool at home, and Spurs/Newcastle away. Not impossible though. I'm still a long way from calling it progress, it might still go either way for me - but if we can find the positive intent and togetherness we've shown in patches more consistently, then it definitely will be. |
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Post by luke45 on Dec 23, 2013 11:28:50 GMT
Interesting read and it does give us plenty of reason to be optimistic. Interestingly I don't actually think we've passed the ball half as well as we did at the start of the season in recent games. In our last three games for example where we have gained 7 points from a possible 9, our pass success rate has been below 80% in every game, it was as low as 65% against Villa at the weekend! At the start of the season we had pass success rates of 80% or more against Liverpool, Fulham, Arsenal and just short of 80% against Man City. I think it goes to show that the top teams allow us a lot more space to play in than the teams in the bottom half of the table, but also that it's not about how much possession we have, but how well we are using it. Recently we haven't kept the ball as well, but we have showed more penetration and cutting edge and we've managed to do a lot more with less possession.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 11:29:32 GMT
This is one of the (many) things about modern day football that drives me crackers.
"We're X amount of points better off against the same opposition as last year!" or any other permutation of it.
What a load of eyewash. What exactly is it supposed to mean anyway? So if you lost to, for example, Fulham at home last season but draw with them this season, does it mean you are a better side if they are a better side than last year, or worse if they are a worse side than last year or whatever?
Does it take into account the run of fixtures and momentum? Injuries? Suspensions? Weather conditions? Refereeing decisions?
At the end of the day you look at two things. Where you are halfway after 19 games, as a yardstick and where you finish after 38 games.
The rest is just nu-football bullshit.
Some of these know-it-all football pundits should take a long walk in a dark field and give their heads a wobble.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2013 11:33:34 GMT
I'm a lot calmer now than I was a month ago, that's for sure. Time will tell whether Hughes can build his own successful side, but I'm now convinced that he is capable of rehabilitation post QPR, and that we can be a stable club under him. The next 4 games look tricky, and in terms of points taken last season I think we'll do well to pick up last seasons 5 points from Everton/Liverpool at home, and Spurs/Newcastle away. Not impossible though. I'm still a long way from calling it progress, it might still go either way for me - but if we can find the positive intent and togetherness we've shown in patches more consistently, then it definitely will be. In my banter, that is exactly the point I was making. You can present statistics in any way you want to suit your own argument but when it comes down to it the only real time that you can compare last season with this is at the end of the season. Everything else is making out a whole host of things to prove your own point. The true test comes from points gained and league position at the end of the season. Then and only then, can you judge Mark Hughes first season with any authority at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 11:43:47 GMT
I'm a lot calmer now than I was a month ago, that's for sure. Time will tell whether Hughes can build his own successful side, but I'm now convinced that he is capable of rehabilitation post QPR, and that we can be a stable club under him. The next 4 games look tricky, and in terms of points taken last season I think we'll do well to pick up last seasons 5 points from Everton/Liverpool at home, and Spurs/Newcastle away. Not impossible though. I'm still a long way from calling it progress, it might still go either way for me - but if we can find the positive intent and togetherness we've shown in patches more consistently, then it definitely will be. In my banter, that is exactly the point I was making. You can present statistics in any way you want to suit your own argument but when it comes down to it the only real time that you can compare last season with this is at the end of the season. Everything else is making out a whole host of things to prove your own point. The true test comes from points gained and league position at the end of the season. Then and only then, can you judge Mark Hughes first season with any authority at all. Very true - and I'll try to remember that when we're 15th after the next 4 games and 0-1 at HT v Palace.  |
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Post by apb1 on Dec 23, 2013 12:21:05 GMT
This is one of the (many) things about modern day football that drives me crackers. "We're X amount of points better off against the same opposition as last year!" or any other permutation of it. What a load of eyewash. What exactly is it supposed to mean anyway? So if you lost to, for example, Fulham at home last season but draw with them this season, does it mean you are a better side if they are a better side than last year, or worse if they are a worse side than last year or whatever? Does it take into account the run of fixtures and momentum? Injuries? Suspensions? Weather conditions? Refereeing decisions? At the end of the day you look at two things. Where you are halfway after 19 games, as a yardstick and where you finish after 38 games. The rest is just nu-football bullshit. Some of these know-it-all football pundits should take a long walk in a dark field and give their heads a wobble. So you only assess our progress half way through and at the end of the season? You make some good points about the difficulties of comparing like for like, but surely it's at least of passing interest as some kind of yardstick? Maybe I'm a bit too obsessive but I enjoy threads on statistics |
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Post by nott1 on Dec 23, 2013 12:29:20 GMT
I'm a TP fan, but we aren't doing too badly at the moment apart from the the poor league cup display!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 12:37:48 GMT
Here is another stat. So far, we have scored three goals or more in a match twice this season in the league. This equals or exceeds the number of such occasions in every FULL season since the return to the top flight, the exception being 2010-2011 when it happened six times. Happy Christmas!
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Post by werrington on Dec 23, 2013 12:38:05 GMT
Mark Hughes is doing a superb job
Now was time for a change at the top as it had become stale and predictable .
His one season at the out of control juggernaut that was QPR ( Harry has somehow come out if it all blameless ) has clouded the fantastic jobs he has done elsewhere
Given he has completely changed how we set up and take teams on he deserves credit
Long may it continue
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 12:41:07 GMT
This is one of the (many) things about modern day football that drives me crackers. "We're X amount of points better off against the same opposition as last year!" or any other permutation of it. What a load of eyewash. What exactly is it supposed to mean anyway? So if you lost to, for example, Fulham at home last season but draw with them this season, does it mean you are a better side if they are a better side than last year, or worse if they are a worse side than last year or whatever? Does it take into account the run of fixtures and momentum? Injuries? Suspensions? Weather conditions? Refereeing decisions? At the end of the day you look at two things. Where you are halfway after 19 games, as a yardstick and where you finish after 38 games. The rest is just nu-football bullshit. Some of these know-it-all football pundits should take a long walk in a dark field and give their heads a wobble. So you only assess our progress half way through and at the end of the season? You make some good points about the difficulties of comparing like for like, but surely it's at least of passing interest as some kind of yardstick? Maybe I'm a bit too obsessive but I enjoy threads on statistics Yeah, I just think the only true yardstick is halfway through, when you've played everyone once and at the end of the season, when you've played everyone twice. Then you know where you truly are. Stats are nice, but they can mean anything you want them to and can often mislead you. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 23, 2013 13:08:47 GMT
Very sad to hear the Mark Hughes red and white army chant wither and die on the vine on Saturday. I still think there is some residual dislike of him in certain quarters and it's not just from people who loved Pulis. In the boozer yesterday, there were few people willing to give him much credit and many of them were certainly not in the pro Pulis camp. 7/10 so far for me.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 23, 2013 13:16:59 GMT
Very sad to hear the Mark Hughes red and white army chant wither and die on the vine on Saturday. I still think there is some residual dislike of him in certain quarters and it's not just from people who loved Pulis. In the boozer yesterday, there were few people willing to give him much credit and many of them were certainly not in the pro Pulis camp. 7/10 so far for me. I've been one of his biggest defenders on here and tbh I haven't joined in, I don't think it's quite deserved yet but that's just me being overly fussy. But as for the job he's done, I've been quietly impressed from the off. Hopefully in a month's time everything is as rosy as it is now, it's a tough little run we've got. |
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Dec 23, 2013 13:27:04 GMT
Very sad to hear the Mark Hughes red and white army chant wither and die on the vine on Saturday. I still think there is some residual dislike of him in certain quarters and it's not just from people who loved Pulis. In the boozer yesterday, there were few people willing to give him much credit and many of them were certainly not in the pro Pulis camp. 7/10 so far for me. I think the support he and the team have got from the home support has been pretty pathetic so far. The atmosphere has been dire, culminating in Weds nights humiliation of being completely outsung by the fucking scum for 90 mins. Ok, 1st half performances have been pretty poor so the crowd aren't getting into it from the off, but at times we aren't even trying. Feels like only a refereeing controversy gets the crowd going these days. Sometimes the players get the fans going, but sometimes it has to be the other way round, sometimes they need a lift and at the moment, they are getting fuck all. |
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Dec 23, 2013 13:32:05 GMT
Even if we end up getting roughly the same pts. we got under Pulis,it shirly is better in the long run because the fans are seeing better nogger.
What would you prefer,44pts. With Pulis in charge,or 44pts. with Hughes in charge?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 13:54:13 GMT
I'm wasn't pro pulis and admit i have moaned about hughes many times this season. Sometimes I think he's got substitutions wrong and many times I feel that we have looked disorganised and dispassionate, god knows how we are in the top half but looking at those stats hughes is proving the doubters, including me, wrong. In trying circumstances with a limited squad.just feel something needs to happen to trigger that bond between him and the supporters.
This is a strange season. There is a strange mood in the stands. terrible atmosphere at games. I think we need to turn it around for next season. Get the missing season ticket holders back with some attacking signings, maybe bring in a singing section. I've tried to sing in the last few games sitting in block 30 but no one else joins in. if I could be with some like minded people I'd sing all game
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Dec 23, 2013 14:06:49 GMT
I'm wasn't pro pulis and admit i have moaned about hughes many times this season. Sometimes I think he's got substitutions wrong and many times I feel that we have looked disorganised and dispassionate, god knows how we are in the top half but looking at those stats hughes is proving the doubters, including me, wrong. In trying circumstances with a limited squad.just feel something needs to happen to trigger that bond between him and the supporters. This is a strange season. There is a strange mood in the stands. terrible atmosphere at games. I think we need to turn it around for next season. Get the missing season ticket holders back with some attacking signings, maybe bring in a singing section. I've tried to sing in the last few games sitting in block 30 but no one else joins in. if I could be with some like minded people I'd sing all game I see where you're problem is, you're sitting in the wrong seat, nobody wants to join in with you because you've just bowled up to block 30 and parked yourself there uninvited, seemingly lost and disoriented. They probably think you're a complete twat, probably because of the stupid looking coat you've probably been wearing, and the silly shoes. Maybe if you sat in your season ticket seat in block 26 it would help? At least everyone there has learned how to deal with you over the years. |
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 23, 2013 14:59:07 GMT
I agree with an stream of comments above following an excellent first post, including the dissident comment about statistics, but they are the only actual measure of how a team is performing even if they are very flawed.
TP did a brilliant job for Stoke, but last season part 2 it was clear Stoke were heading for the exit door. Not only were the results dire, so were the performances, and I have to say in my opinion TP had "lost it". I also think from his interviews* that TP himself knew he was fighting a losing battle and had lost the support of the players and owner as well as most fans for his style of management. But we should always be grateful for what he did for the club. (* He was too ingratiating.)
I am now a strong supporter of MH. He is reported to say in today's Daily Mail that he should be judged on the whole of his 250 matches as a Premiership manager not just the last 12 with QPR. I'm not sure I totally agree with that as I have just said above I believe TP "lost it" towards the end of his tenure and the club and he needed a change. There is no shame it that, look how great players often go through sticky patches when they play hopelessly for a period.
MH prevented QPR being relegated to start with but then lost the plot with wholesale player change which miss-fired. It may be he was not totally in charge of all the changes taking place, particularly the lucrative contracts that some of the new QPR players secured. My guess is he learnt a lot he will never repeat, which could explain why Stoke didn't make the necessary new striker signing last summer, as he was more conscious of losing the support of the existing squad if he brought in an unsavoury character on a massive contract.
I will keep looking at the stats myself as I believe they can be a guide, although a very suspect one.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Dec 23, 2013 15:05:04 GMT
I have been involved in some lengthy debates about our progression as a club this season and it pretty much started when an idiot acquaintance of mine jumped on the back of Jamie Redknapps comments about us being a number of points behind where we were last season as evidence that we are going backwards under Mark Hughes. I have nailed my colours to the mast on this one and think that given time, Mark Hughes will go on and do a very decent job for us. He has come in to our club at a difficult time and has a hard task to follow a manager who had been at our club for a long time and who after being very successful eventually produced a team which cost a lot of money and was heading in only one direction. After some banter over the weekend, this idiot mate of mine kept on about how we have gone backwards and how beating a poor Villa side means nothing. Hughes is wank. Hughes is a wanker and his team is shit and going backwards when compared to Tony Pulis. Apparently we are 2 places and 4 points worse off than the same stage last season having conceded more goals. To me, such a claim doesn't really take into account the opposition faced or whether fixtures are/were skewed towards home and away games against which opposition so I set about having a look myself. If you say that Palace are this years Reading, Hull are Wigan and Cardiff are QPR and take the points gathered on a corresponding fixture by fixture basis, we are actually faring pretty damn well really. In the corresponding fixtures last season we got 15 points with a goal difference of -10 (12 goals for, 22 against) whereas this season we have accrued 20 points from the same set of fixtures with a goal difference of 0 (17 goals for, 17 against). Given that we all recognise how desperate we are for a goalscorer and all recognise that we are playing in a way that doesn't involve 10 men at the back at all times regardless of the opposition or the score in the game, I was pleasantly surprised by these facts. Given the weekly love of comparing all things Tony Pulis with all things Mark Hughes, I thought this information was pretty interesting. To date, under difficult circumstances, Mark Hughes is doing a very good job. Long may it continue. Cameron is our best outfield player this season. Has he, must have missed that. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2013 21:44:24 GMT
Surely Palace should be QPR, Cardiff should be Reading and Hull should be Wigan, don't know whether that will make any difference. Interesting reading though If you switched the teams around as you describe it wouldn't alter the figures posted above at all. They would remain absolutely identical. Interestingly, given that you could assign any promoted club to the relegated club in a like for like comparison, if you actually take relegated/promoted teams out of the equation, Hughes is faring even better. In only corresponding fixtures last season v this season, Hughes team have accrued 15 points with a goal difference of 0 compared to 8 points by the Pulis team with a goal difference of -12 |
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Post by lordb on Dec 23, 2013 22:12:46 GMT
Were the same players playing in each of these games?
With same refs & the same conditions?
Fairly meaningless stats for me.
Bit like looking at where Boskamps side finished to the TP side the year before - almost exactly the same & yet the two seasons couldn't have been more different
right now we are 10th so well done Hughes
If we are between 10th & 15th & still in the FA cup by 4th round day then I will be happy.
Throw in an exciting signing & then we could be in for a cracking spring.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 23, 2013 23:05:53 GMT
Were the same players playing in each of these games? With same refs & the same conditions? Fairly meaningless stats for me. Bit like looking at where Boskamps side finished to the TP side the year before - almost exactly the same & yet the two seasons couldn't have been more different right now we are 10th so well done Hughes If we are between 10th & 15th & still in the FA cup by 4th round day then I will be happy. Throw in an exciting signing & then we could be in for a cracking spring. I don't disagree mate but if you take into account weather conditions, refs, teams, injuries, form and suspension, then comparing any season with another is just about as pointless as it gets. I don't necessarily disagree with that and have advocated on many occasion, both this season and in previous seasons, that the only true measure of 1 season v another season is comparing the points total, goal difference and league positions at the end of the season. For now, it remains a case of "so far so good" and for now, anyone can use any number of stats to prove a point that Hughes is either the saviour or the devil incarnate. |
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