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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 5, 2013 13:13:35 GMT
Let's not kid ourselves here. If one of the top four had wanted this kid, they'd have got the work permit. So you're saying it's not a level playing field and the FA are in the pockets of the big clubs? What a terrible thing to think. I know, hush my potty mouth!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 13:13:37 GMT
Perhaps with the world cup coming up we have a chance. If Klinsman says "yes he will play in the world cup" that would surely qualify him for the required amount of national games doubtful!! he's played just once in the last 2 years for the US...even if they got to the final and he played every game that would amount to 8 games over 2 years in which time they'd have played (including the 7 WC games) around 25 competitive games so he'd still only have made about 30% or so instead of the required 75%
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 13:15:14 GMT
don't think that's up to us though is it really? Agudelo would have to be happy with taking another nation's citizenship...given the fact that he's also played first team football for the US then basically he'd be resigning from international football as he can't play for the US if he's a national citizen of somewhere else and they can't play him because he's represented the US already...huge sacrifice to just play for stoke He could have dual citizenship, couldn't he? That wouldn't impede his ability to play for the USA at all. I know there are examples of them having done it in the past with other players - Dong Fangzhuo is one of them and I know there are a few others. Although yes, obviously he'd have to be on board with having a few years somewhere in Europe and we'd have to find somebody to take him on. fair point (as you and a few others have made)
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 5, 2013 13:20:39 GMT
Is it Valencia or Villareal who have expressed an interest in him? We could sign him and loan him out to them. He's probably a bilingual and a Spanish speaker and so there wouldn't be a language problem.
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Post by Squeekster on Dec 5, 2013 13:27:56 GMT
Is it Valencia or Villareal who have expressed an interest in him? We could sign him and loan him out to them. He's probably a bilingual and a Spanish speaker and so there wouldn't be a language problem. Valencia!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 13:28:15 GMT
Is it Valencia or Villareal who have expressed an interest in him? We could sign him and loan him out to them. He's probably a bilingual and a Spanish speaker and so there wouldn't be a language problem. if he went to either side on loan do we really think he'd come back here afterwards? fair enough if he stayed they'd have to buy him so we'd get a transfer fee but is it worth all the effort just for that? personally i think if he's only going to be a bit part player anyway we may as well cut our losses and move on instead of wasting time. interesting article that looks at his negatives as well as the positives (may make people realise he isn't the great hope that some are automatically presuming he is) espnfc.com/blog/_/name/thescoutsnotebook/id/694?cc=5739
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Post by interestedobserver on Dec 5, 2013 14:47:36 GMT
Unless Klinsmann is playing Aron Johansen for the benefit of Icelandic aðdáandi drengurs and Dutch van guys. Agudelo is nowhere near going to Brazil. I wouldn't be surprised, though if he starts picking up a caps after the World Cup as JK is sure to be looking at who will still be around for 2018.
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Post by desman2 on Dec 5, 2013 15:01:34 GMT
If Dyke thinks tightening any rule will do anything he must be a complete idiot. When 27 countries have players who can sign anytime for anyone then hes just exposing his stupidity
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 5, 2013 15:03:34 GMT
If Dyke thinks tightening any rule will do anything he must be a complete idiot. When 27 countries have players who can sign anytime for anyone then hes just exposing his stupidity What pisses me off is that we've had the tightest rules in Europe for some time yet the influx of foreigners has only got worse. To me that clearly shows that something else is the problem. Something a bit deeper. But lets blame it on Johnny Foreigner.
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Post by mailman44 on Dec 5, 2013 15:10:47 GMT
I would loan him out to Ajax. Young team on the rise, very technical league (help his first touch and awareness), state of the art facilities, and European cup football.
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Post by fromtheusa on Dec 5, 2013 15:56:23 GMT
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Post by fromtheusa on Dec 5, 2013 15:59:39 GMT
Unless Klinsmann is playing Aron Johansen for the benefit of Icelandic aðdáandi drengurs and Dutch van guys. Agudelo is nowhere near going to Brazil. I wouldn't be surprised, though if he starts picking up a caps after the World Cup as JK is sure to be looking at who will still be around for 2018. True, but after Altidore and Iceman, the USA striker pool drops to Eurotrash Terrance Boyd and gritty Eddie Johnson. That's counting Dempsey and Lando as midfielders. Juan can leapfrog Boyd and Johnson by starting almost anywhere decent in Europe. (Spain, Holland, even Celtic)
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 5, 2013 16:26:41 GMT
I would loan him out to Ajax. Young team on the rise, very technical league (help his first touch and awareness), state of the art facilities, and European cup football. If not them we could try Domestos.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 5, 2013 16:37:27 GMT
Is it Valencia or Villareal who have expressed an interest in him? We could sign him and loan him out to them. He's probably a bilingual and a Spanish speaker and so there wouldn't be a language problem. if he went to either side on loan do we really think he'd come back here afterwards? fair enough if he stayed they'd have to buy him so we'd get a transfer fee but is it worth all the effort just for that?
personally i think if he's only going to be a bit part player anyway we may as well cut our losses and move on instead of wasting time. interesting article that looks at his negatives as well as the positives (may make people realise he isn't the great hope that some are automatically presuming he is) espnfc.com/blog/_/name/thescoutsnotebook/id/694?cc=5739Is it worth the effort? It depends upon how much of an effort there is. He won't be on huge wages by Prem standards so I am assuming that the club loaning him would cover most if not all of the wages. So, it shouldn't cost us much. We'd have to look after the paperwork and that's about it in terms of effort - providing of course he stays reasonably fit. His potential fitness is the unknown. If he got a bad (but not career ending) injury we'd have to cover his wages until he was fit again but, that apart, the risks are not huge. If he makes the grade then either we get a decent transfer fee or he comes back to play for us as a worthy addition to the squad. At the end of the day it depends upon how much Hughes rates him and whether Peter Coates is up for the gamble. The fact that he appears to be at Clayton Wood today suggests that the saga still has "legs" - and personally, I'm rather pleased about that. I think clubs like Stoke have often had a raw deal over work permits (I'm old enough to have seen Carlos Babbington play for Argentina on TV and I was gutted when we lost him) and I'd love us to prove the suits on the FA tribunal were biased against clubs like ours.
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Post by TheBra1n on Dec 5, 2013 16:39:56 GMT
it always baffles me why this country doesnt have a different rule for high earning applicants, such as premier league footballers
the player stands to give the tax man say 10 grand a week but the immigration people say nah we dont need that, it just makes no sense.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 16:57:24 GMT
if he went to either side on loan do we really think he'd come back here afterwards? fair enough if he stayed they'd have to buy him so we'd get a transfer fee but is it worth all the effort just for that?
personally i think if he's only going to be a bit part player anyway we may as well cut our losses and move on instead of wasting time. interesting article that looks at his negatives as well as the positives (may make people realise he isn't the great hope that some are automatically presuming he is) espnfc.com/blog/_/name/thescoutsnotebook/id/694?cc=5739Is it worth the effort? It depends upon how much of an effort there is. He won't be on huge wages by Prem standards so I am assuming that the club loaning him would cover most if not all of the wages. So, it shouldn't cost us much. We'd have to look after the paperwork and that's about it in terms of effort - providing of course he stays reasonably fit. His potential fitness is the unknown. If he got a bad (but not career ending) injury we'd have to cover his wages until he was fit again but, that apart, the risks are not huge. If he makes the grade then either we get a decent transfer fee or he comes back to play for us as a worthy addition to the squad. At the end of the day it depends upon how much Hughes rates him and whether Peter Coates is up for the gamble. The fact that he appears to be at Clayton Wood today suggests that the saga still has "legs" - and personally, I'm rather pleased about that. I think clubs like Stoke have often had a raw deal over work permits (I'm old enough to have seen Carlos Babbington play for Argentina on TV and I was gutted when we lost him) and I'd love us to prove the suits on the FA tribunal were biased against clubs like ours. completely agree with all that (especially in terms of fighting our corner re: work permits in general)....i just don't want us to expend too much energy on it all if we could be concentrating our efforts on players we can bring in straight away in January to make a difference to this season. in the summer we had the luxury of optimism for the coming season, right now that's rapidly disappearing and we need someone in and quick! don't get me wrong, i don't think we're in as desperate a situation as some on here make out quite yet but if we don't change things soon then we will be and that has to come as priority over a player who's a complete unknown quantity at this level. just would rather we don't take our eye off the ball in January (as we have done some in some previous windows)and pin all our hopes on this one matter. if it doesn't work out then it ends up being panic buys right at the end and results in too little too late.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 5, 2013 17:15:42 GMT
Is it worth the effort? It depends upon how much of an effort there is. He won't be on huge wages by Prem standards so I am assuming that the club loaning him would cover most if not all of the wages. So, it shouldn't cost us much. We'd have to look after the paperwork and that's about it in terms of effort - providing of course he stays reasonably fit. His potential fitness is the unknown. If he got a bad (but not career ending) injury we'd have to cover his wages until he was fit again but, that apart, the risks are not huge. If he makes the grade then either we get a decent transfer fee or he comes back to play for us as a worthy addition to the squad. At the end of the day it depends upon how much Hughes rates him and whether Peter Coates is up for the gamble. The fact that he appears to be at Clayton Wood today suggests that the saga still has "legs" - and personally, I'm rather pleased about that. I think clubs like Stoke have often had a raw deal over work permits (I'm old enough to have seen Carlos Babbington play for Argentina on TV and I was gutted when we lost him) and I'd love us to prove the suits on the FA tribunal were biased against clubs like ours. completely agree with all that (especially in terms of fighting our corner re: work permits in general)....i just don't want us to expend too much energy on it all if we could be concentrating our efforts on players we can bring in straight away in January to make a difference to this season. in the summer we had the luxury of optimism for the coming season, right now that's rapidly disappearing and we need someone in and quick! don't get me wrong, i don't think we're in as desperate a situation as some on here make out quite yet but if we don't change things soon then we will be and that has to come as priority over a player who's a complete unknown quantity at this level. just would rather we don't take our eye off the ball in January (as we have done some in some previous windows)and pin all our hopes on this one matter. if it doesn't work out then it ends up being panic buys right at the end and results in too little too late. I'm hopeful that the club now has enough staff resources on the recruitment side of things to multi task to the extent that getting an Agudelo deal done would not conflict with bringing in other talent for "here and now", that you rightly say we need.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 17:24:50 GMT
agreed....at least we're no longer just restricted to one man doing bloody everything
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 5, 2013 17:37:00 GMT
Perhaps with the world cup coming up we have a chance. If Klinsman says "yes he will play in the world cup" that would surely qualify him for the required amount of national games doubtful!! he's played just once in the last 2 years for the US...even if they got to the final and he played every game that would amount to 8 games over 2 years in which time they'd have played (including the 7 WC games) around 25 competitive games so he'd still only have made about 30% or so instead of the required 75% THIS. END OF THREAD. If you can be bothered (and it is actually quite interesting) to read the following then Agudelo ain't coming. Non AgudeloIf you can't be bothered to read the article then here's the shortened (amended by me) version...... "Under U.K. law, there are several ways to obtain a work permit, and players typically rely on the “Tier 2 (Sports person)” application process. The Tier 2 (Sports person) category “is for elite sports people [Agudleo is not elite] and coaches who are internationally established [Agudelo is not internationally established] at the highest level [USA, highest level??], and will make a significant contribution [here's the bit that the FA can use against any player 'lowly' Stoke buy, even if we sign Messi, and why players like Willian will be given a work permit because a dozen appearances for the former European Champs might be considered a significant contribution] to the development of their sport.” Although I do smile at dear Momo's blinkered disdain of the our very own Chief Executive of the Year, Mr Tony Scholes and his brother-in-arms Mark Cartwright, I can't help thinking that Sheiky's got a good point. If the above was the rule, and given Dyke's recent comments, how the fuck did we think that Juan would get a fucking permit??
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Post by stokeramblers on Dec 5, 2013 17:39:31 GMT
Then you've got Goose who's looking like a lock for the USMNT roster.
Maverick who'll be playing EPL soccer provided he gets the WP
Totally frickin awesome. SITFAGTUSMNT
Amerikur Fuck Yeah!
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Post by mailman44 on Dec 5, 2013 19:13:46 GMT
Entirely too simple an analysiss. Send Les back to the hearing armed with the following: "right I've read your new regulations and we are in accordance with them in signing this Yank geezer. He arguably scored the goal of the season in he most professional soccer league in the Northern Hemisphere. He was first name on the team sheet for a side called the New ENGLAND Revolution and played a huge role in hem finally making somethingg called the "playoffs" in MLS., a very significant accomplishment because ONLY the top 2/3rds of he league qualify. Last but not least he comes from the USA which is the best country on earth just ask Ronald Reagan and Mrs Thatcher!" If that is not a persuasive enough argument comp the hearing members a few of those Alsagerian Eastern European prostitiutes you lot were singing he praises of earlier this week. Off now to solve the Palestinian problem ....
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 5, 2013 19:52:45 GMT
doubtful!! he's played just once in the last 2 years for the US...even if they got to the final and he played every game that would amount to 8 games over 2 years in which time they'd have played (including the 7 WC games) around 25 competitive games so he'd still only have made about 30% or so instead of the required 75% THIS. END OF THREAD. If you can be bothered (and it is actually quite interesting) to read the following then Agudelo ain't coming. Non AgudeloIf you can't be bothered to read the article then here's the shortened (amended by me) version...... "Under U.K. law, there are several ways to obtain a work permit, and players typically rely on the “Tier 2 (Sports person)” application process. The Tier 2 (Sports person) category “is for elite sports people [Agudleo is not elite] and coaches who are internationally established [Agudelo is not internationally established] at the highest level [USA, highest level??], and will make a significant contribution [here's the bit that the FA can use against any player 'lowly' Stoke buy, even if we sign Messi, and why players like Willian will be given a work permit because a dozen appearances for the former European Champs might be considered a significant contribution] to the development of their sport.” Although I do smile at dear Momo's blinkered disdain of the our very own Chief Executive of the Year, Mr Tony Scholes and his brother-in-arms Mark Cartwright, I can't help thinking that Sheiky's got a good point. If the above was the rule, and given Dyke's recent comments, how the fuck did we think that Juan would get a fucking permit?? I know they're bollocks but the US national are ranked higher than ours aren't they? They might not be at the highest level but lets not pretend it's protecting English players because it isn't. And he's got 15+ caps before he's 20? Is that not elite enough? If it was, English football wouldn't be in the mess it's in.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 5, 2013 20:20:28 GMT
THIS. END OF THREAD. If you can be bothered (and it is actually quite interesting) to read the following then Agudelo ain't coming. Non AgudeloIf you can't be bothered to read the article then here's the shortened (amended by me) version...... "Under U.K. law, there are several ways to obtain a work permit, and players typically rely on the “Tier 2 (Sports person)” application process. The Tier 2 (Sports person) category “is for elite sports people [Agudleo is not elite] and coaches who are internationally established [Agudelo is not internationally established] at the highest level [USA, highest level??], and will make a significant contribution [here's the bit that the FA can use against any player 'lowly' Stoke buy, even if we sign Messi, and why players like Willian will be given a work permit because a dozen appearances for the former European Champs might be considered a significant contribution] to the development of their sport.” Although I do smile at dear Momo's blinkered disdain of the our very own Chief Executive of the Year, Mr Tony Scholes and his brother-in-arms Mark Cartwright, I can't help thinking that Sheiky's got a good point. If the above was the rule, and given Dyke's recent comments, how the fuck did we think that Juan would get a fucking permit?? I know they're bollocks but the US national are ranked higher than ours aren't they? They might not be at the highest level but lets not pretend it's protecting English players because it isn't. And he's got 15+ caps before he's 20? Is that not elite enough? If it was, English football wouldn't be in the mess it's in. How very dare you! We're 13th and they're 14th I'll have you know But in all seriousness doesn't that add to the FA's case in a "what would a player coming from a 14th ranked team really add to a nation ranked 13th" kind of way? He's gained 1 senior cap in a competitive fixture during 2012 and 2013 hasn't he? I thought friendlies and non-senior games didn't count for work permits.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 5, 2013 20:40:31 GMT
I know they're bollocks but the US national are ranked higher than ours aren't they? They might not be at the highest level but lets not pretend it's protecting English players because it isn't. And he's got 15+ caps before he's 20? Is that not elite enough? If it was, English football wouldn't be in the mess it's in. How very dare you! We're 13th and they're 14th I'll have you know But in all seriousness doesn't that add to the FA's case in a "what would a player coming from a 14th ranked team really add to a nation ranked 13th" kind of way? He's gained 1 senior cap in a competitive fixture during 2012 and 2013 hasn't he? I thought friendlies and non-senior games didn't count for work permits. I don't see why it would, it's a bollocks argument either way to be honest. That or the, we're of equal standing so he's clearly in line with what we have. That's a shit argument too, another reason why I think the whole process is farcical. I think it is yeah but has he even got one cap in the past year? If the Valencia link is serious, that's a better reason than caps, rankings etc. They're a bigger and better club than us who can develop their own players and they want him. But he's not good enough for the Premier League or Stoke. What a load of shit.
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Post by nottinghamstokie on Dec 5, 2013 20:50:07 GMT
Am I missing something here ? We quite clearly have a desperate need to sign a decent striker very soon. Whether he was really going to be the saviour on his own - surely not really ?? - he didn't get a work permit so he ain't coming. Given our need for something soon, who really gives a **** about potential loan deals for a year, Valencia, etc etc ???
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 5, 2013 21:03:40 GMT
Am I missing something here ? We quite clearly have a desperate need to sign a decent striker very soon. Whether he was really going to be the saviour on his own - surely not really ?? - he didn't get a work permit so he ain't coming. Given our need for something soon, who really gives a **** about potential loan deals for a year, Valencia, etc etc ??? I've supported Stoke for about 60 years and one of the enduring problems is the "short termism" which has been a feature of the Stoke way of doing business. In the Premier League we now have an income about 8 times higher than we had in the Championship and our new Academy is a big part of planning for the future. But there is absolutely no reason why we should not sign players who are needed to improve the squad now and, AT THE SAME TIME, sign a player on a free who might qualify for a work permit in the future. The top clubs have been doing that for years - bringing a player in and loaning him to a foreign club for experience or until he qualifies for a work permit. If we can do this with Agudelo and get the foreign club to cover all or most of his wages, we have little to lose by taking the gamble.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 5, 2013 21:23:11 GMT
How very dare you! We're 13th and they're 14th I'll have you know But in all seriousness doesn't that add to the FA's case in a "what would a player coming from a 14th ranked team really add to a nation ranked 13th" kind of way? He's gained 1 senior cap in a competitive fixture during 2012 and 2013 hasn't he? I thought friendlies and non-senior games didn't count for work permits. I don't see why it would, it's a bollocks argument either way to be honest. That or the, we're of equal standing so he's clearly in line with what we have. That's a shit argument too, another reason why I think the whole process is farcical. I think it is yeah but has he even got one cap in the past year? If the Valencia link is serious, that's a better reason than caps, rankings etc. They're a bigger and better club than us who can develop their own players and they want him. But he's not good enough for the Premier League or Stoke. What a load of shit. You don't see how a player coming from a nation ranked 14th to a nation ranked 13th couldn't fulfil the FA guidelines of "will make a significant contribution to the development of their sport.” [in the proposed country] ?? If the nations involved are of 'equal' standing how can the player "make a significant contribution"?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Dec 5, 2013 21:30:18 GMT
I don't see why it would, it's a bollocks argument either way to be honest. That or the, we're of equal standing so he's clearly in line with what we have. That's a shit argument too, another reason why I think the whole process is farcical. I think it is yeah but has he even got one cap in the past year? If the Valencia link is serious, that's a better reason than caps, rankings etc. They're a bigger and better club than us who can develop their own players and they want him. But he's not good enough for the Premier League or Stoke. What a load of shit. You don't see how a player coming from a nation ranked 14th to a nation ranked 13th couldn't fulfil the FA guidelines of "will make a significant contribution to the development of their sport.” [in the proposed country] ?? If the nations involved are of 'equal' standing how can the player "make a significant contribution"? If he's a player of equal standing to our international players then of course he's going to help develop the game because by that logic he's in the top 1% of players in the world (certainly England), how can't that help develop the game? It's complete bollocks of course but the whole process and rules that come along with it are complete bollocks.
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frumpy
Youth Player
Posts: 324
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Post by frumpy on Dec 5, 2013 21:32:23 GMT
It is possible for us to get the deal done and then loan him out isn't it? Surely that's the thing to do. Even if the second hearing is rejected (surely wouldn't be) then we still have player to sell who we got for free. It's difficult when we don't actually know the reason for the rejected work permit. We're assuming it's lack of national caps but I don't know how many more of those he'll get in the next 3 months.
That's an easy question to answer. Didn't occur to you to look at the international schedule? The US is playing South Korea on Feb 1st, but if Juan isn't playing any club footy there's no reason he'd be called in. And that match if for our NT Jan camp for MLS players in their off season who'll be their training for 2-3 weeks beforehand. Then there's a date in early March, but that's both more than three months from now and if Juan isn't playing he wouldn't be called as that match will be more for our full NT. So don't expect any caps. As an aside, I'd say it's unfair to Juan to keep him in limbo though the international window. If Stoke doesn't allow him to sign on loan in Jan, he wn't be playing at all for three months and if the appeal is rejected for a 2nd time he won't play any club footy or really even have a club until next July. That's not the correct way to handle this situation. He's only 20. Loan him to the continent and bring him back in two years at 22.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Dec 5, 2013 21:49:29 GMT
It's difficult when we don't actually know the reason for the rejected work permit. We're assuming it's lack of national caps but I don't know how many more of those he'll get in the next 3 months.
That's an easy question to answer. Didn't occur to you to look at the international schedule? The US is playing South Korea on Feb 1st, but if Juan isn't playing any club footy there's no reason he'd be called in. And that match if for our NT Jan camp for MLS players in their off season who'll be their training for 2-3 weeks beforehand. Then there's a date in early March, but that's both more than three months from now and if Juan isn't playing he wouldn't be called as that match will be more for our full NT. So don't expect any caps. As an aside, I'd say it's unfair to Juan to keep him in limbo though the international window. If Stoke doesn't allow him to sign on loan in Jan, he wn't be playing at all for three months and if the appeal is rejected for a 2nd time he won't play any club footy or really even have a club until next July. That's not the correct way to handle this situation. He's only 20. Loan him to the continent and bring him back in two years at 22. Evening Frump. To be honest I did look up the USMNT fixtures on an 'official' site but couldn't find any future fixtures. I have now.... must have been looking at the wrong site !!I'm with you about signing him long time. Personally I'd sign him, long term. Loan him out, read the fucking small print about WP's, grease a few FA palms, then re-apply and have a decent (by all accounts) cheap addition to the ranks within 12 - 18 months.
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