|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 1:08:02 GMT
There are also plenty of people that reckon Al-Queda had zero involvement in 9/11 and that it was a false flag operation to justify not only the "War on Terror" but also the total surveillance we now have on the web.
Either way, the US seem to be turning the planet into a crucible of fear, lies, murder and hatred. It makes me puke. Rogue nation.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 1:22:17 GMT
There are also plenty of people that reckon Al-Queda had zero involvement in 9/11 and that it was a false flag operation to justify not only the "War on Terror" but also the total surveillance we now have on the web. Either way, the US seem to be turning the planet into a crucible of fear, lies, murder and hatred. It makes me puke. Rogue nation. You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense .....
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 1:37:00 GMT
I honestly don't know what happened on 9/11 Bish.
The official version is full of half truths and inconsistencies at best. I doubt we'll ever get to the truth, but there is a huge amount of highly disturbing evidence.
But September 11th 2001 was the day the world changed forever.
|
|
|
Post by tuum on Dec 5, 2013 8:42:11 GMT
I'm not usually in favour of the death penalty, but I don't want this country paying to keep these 2 locked up for the rest of their life. Death really is the only way for truly horrendous crimes such as this. I have no problem with people such as Ian Huntley and that bloke who murdered April Jones being killed. Or Jimmy Savile if he was still alive. Incidentally, if they've pleaded not guilty then there must be a defence. How can they begin to defend their actions? I am not aware of Jimmy Saville murdering anyone..have I missed something or are you suggesting that sexual assault of a teenage girl is equivalent to murder?
|
|
|
Post by dexter97 on Dec 5, 2013 8:51:27 GMT
There are also plenty of people that reckon Al-Queda had zero involvement in 9/11 and that it was a false flag operation to justify not only the "War on Terror" but also the total surveillance we now have on the web. Either way, the US seem to be turning the planet into a crucible of fear, lies, murder and hatred. It makes me puke. Rogue nation.
|
|
|
Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 5, 2013 8:53:30 GMT
I'm not usually in favour of the death penalty, but I don't want this country paying to keep these 2 locked up for the rest of their life. Death really is the only way for truly horrendous crimes such as this. I have no problem with people such as Ian Huntley and that bloke who murdered April Jones being killed. Or Jimmy Savile if he was still alive. Incidentally, if they've pleaded not guilty then there must be a defence. How can they begin to defend their actions? I am not aware of Jimmy Saville murdering anyone..have I missed something or are you suggesting that sexual assault of a teenage girl is equivalent to murder? You are aware Savile systematically abused his position to assault girls and boys as young as 8, many of whom were hospitalised. He's alleged to have committed over 34 rapes and 126 indecent acts. Which is a bit more than "sexual assault of a teenage girl". Either way, it would be stupid to execute them for reasons I've stated previous.
|
|
|
Post by dexter97 on Dec 5, 2013 8:57:09 GMT
There are also plenty of people that reckon Al-Queda had zero involvement in 9/11 and that it was a false flag operation to justify not only the "War on Terror" but also the total surveillance we now have on the web. Either way, the US seem to be turning the planet into a crucible of fear, lies, murder and hatred. It makes me puke. Rogue nation. You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense ..... Unfortunately, so many conspiracy theorists are such complete and utter fruitloops that it damages the credibility of anyone questioning the official version of events. There is a lot a of nonsense spouted by the "911 Truthers", but there are a number of very big holes in the story. I have no trouble at all believing that a number of people knew something like this was coming and "looked the other way".
|
|
|
Post by tuum on Dec 5, 2013 10:12:21 GMT
I am not aware of Jimmy Saville murdering anyone..have I missed something or are you suggesting that sexual assault of a teenage girl is equivalent to murder? You are aware Savile systematically abused his position to assault girls and boys as young as 8, many of whom were hospitalised. He's alleged to have committed over 34 rapes and 126 indecent acts. Which is a bit more than "sexual assault of a teenage girl". Either way, it would be stupid to execute them for reasons I've stated previous. Rape and indecent acts are not murder though. I feel very strongly that taking someone's life by murder is the absolute worst possible thing that anyone can do. Manslaughter comes next followed by rape. I don't want to trivialise rape or the crimes of Jimmy Saville but I get the impression that some people think rape or paedophilia are on a par with murder. They are not.I agree that there are grey areas and 'degrees' of rape, murder, manslaughter etc but I can only speak in general here.People get too emotional over certain crimes and I think murder seems to have lost its impact in the UK...no longer front page news..accepted by people, whereas lesser crimes seem to hold disproportionate sway in the eyes of the public. Even 'racism' seems to get more coverage than murder in some circumstances. I think the words I am looking for are 'proportionality' and 'perspective'.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 5, 2013 10:20:47 GMT
You are aware Savile systematically abused his position to assault girls and boys as young as 8, many of whom were hospitalised. He's alleged to have committed over 34 rapes and 126 indecent acts. Which is a bit more than "sexual assault of a teenage girl". Either way, it would be stupid to execute them for reasons I've stated previous. Rape and indecent acts are not murder though. I feel very strongly that taking someone's life by murder is the absolute worst possible thing that anyone can do. Manslaughter comes next followed by rape. I don't want to trivialise rape or the crimes of Jimmy Saville but I get the impression that some people think rape or paedophilia are on a par with murder. They are not.I agree that there are grey areas and 'degrees' of rape, murder, manslaughter etc but I can only speak in general here.People get too emotional over certain crimes and I think murder seems to have lost its impact in the UK...no longer front page news..accepted by people, whereas lesser crimes seem to hold disproportionate sway in the eyes of the public. Even 'racism' seems to get more coverage than murder in some circumstances. I think the words I am looking for are 'proportionality' and 'perspective'. every case is different and should be judged individually examples the crimes of jimmy saville are worse than manslaughter caused by dangerous driving a very quick murder is not as bad as manslaughter caused by burning 6 of your children alive the beheading of a person on the streets of london is far worse than many other examples of murder i could list btw i do not believe in the death penalty however i do believe for all crimes our justice system should serve as a deterent crimes must be punished fairly and appropriately, too often the complex laws of justice added to other eu laws we have to follow sometimes do not allow the correct punishments to be dished out
|
|
|
Post by tuum on Dec 5, 2013 10:31:03 GMT
Rape and indecent acts are not murder though. I feel very strongly that taking someone's life by murder is the absolute worst possible thing that anyone can do. Manslaughter comes next followed by rape. I don't want to trivialise rape or the crimes of Jimmy Saville but I get the impression that some people think rape or paedophilia are on a par with murder. They are not.I agree that there are grey areas and 'degrees' of rape, murder, manslaughter etc but I can only speak in general here.People get too emotional over certain crimes and I think murder seems to have lost its impact in the UK...no longer front page news..accepted by people, whereas lesser crimes seem to hold disproportionate sway in the eyes of the public. Even 'racism' seems to get more coverage than murder in some circumstances. I think the words I am looking for are 'proportionality' and 'perspective'. every case is different and should be judged individually examples the crimes of jimmy saville are worse than manslaughter caused by dangerous driving a very quick murder is not as bad as manslaughter caused by burning 6 of your children alive the beheading of a person on the streets of london is far worse than many other examples of murder i could list btw i do not believe in the death penalty however i do believe for all crimes our justice system should serve as a deterent crimes must be punished fairly and appropriately, too often the complex laws of justice added to other eu laws we have to follow sometimes do not allow the correct punishments to be dished out Can't disagree with you on the examples you have shown other than to say that murder in 99% of cases is never justified and is the top of the tree. I was wondering whether some murder is justified e.g. a father who murders a man who raped his young daughter for example. I am not sure of that one. I could understand the reaction but not sure I could justify it. Perhaps the courts would be more lenient on the prison sentence..but then again, maybe he would plead guilty to mansalughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and receive a lighter sentence anyway. Also agree that our sentencing tariffs sometimes appear to be inconsistent & they definitely do not act as a deterrent in many situations. That's me done on this topic now. It's all getting a bit dark and depressing.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 10:47:06 GMT
You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense ..... Unfortunately, so many conspiracy theorists are such complete and utter fruitloops that it damages the credibility of anyone questioning the official version of events. There is a lot a of nonsense spouted by the "911 Truthers", but there are a number of very big holes in the story. I have no trouble at all believing that a number of people knew something like this was coming and "looked the other way". Possibly true mate , but not the same thing as suggesting that the whole thing was instigated by the Americans themselves as some people have
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Dec 5, 2013 10:49:11 GMT
murder is never justified 100%
that is what our justice system is for
|
|
|
Post by dutchstokie on Dec 5, 2013 10:57:32 GMT
And you are an expert in this field ? No, I'm not an expert, but research clearly shows that the death penalty is not a deterrent. I suggest taking a look at the following Bish: www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/dr_executed_offenders.htmlDeath penalty has no place in modern society. The people (if I can call them that!) that committed these crimes are not mentally stable, therefore the martyrdom issue comes into play with people revering them, which adds to 'the cause for the fight against the west' Thats the difference- no normal sane person would commit such a horrible crime….. You've had nut jobs in this country since the dawn of time - Myra Hindley, Ian Brady, Denis Nilsen, I could give you another 10…. You wouldn't be so understanding and rational if it was one of your loved ones being butchered cartman….no sane person would.
|
|
|
Post by cartman123 on Dec 5, 2013 14:25:36 GMT
The people (if I can call them that!) that committed these crimes are not mentally stable, therefore the martyrdom issue comes into play with people revering them, which adds to 'the cause for the fight against the west' Thats the difference- no normal sane person would commit such a horrible crime….. You've had nut jobs in this country since the dawn of time - Myra Hindley, Ian Brady, Denis Nilsen, I could give you another 10…. You wouldn't be so understanding and rational if it was one of your loved ones being butchered cartman….no sane person would.Of course, which is why the courts elect a jury. Emotion has no place in a Court of law.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 5, 2013 19:54:21 GMT
There are also plenty of people that reckon Al-Queda had zero involvement in 9/11 and that it was a false flag operation to justify not only the "War on Terror" but also the total surveillance we now have on the web. Either way, the US seem to be turning the planet into a crucible of fear, lies, murder and hatred. It makes me puke. Rogue nation. You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense ..... With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"?
|
|
|
Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Dec 5, 2013 20:04:53 GMT
You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense ..... With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? When you say, "greatest respect", are you using that in the Yes Minister kind of way?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 20:09:51 GMT
You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense ..... With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? I have to agree with Huddy here...... It's a load of bollocks
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 20:19:21 GMT
You are an intelligent man .....Please don't tell me you believe that sort of nonsense ..... With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? Because I do not believe that a government such as the American one or our own would be party to such an act of treachery and wanton deceit purely in order to further it's own ends , possibly a nieve way of thinking and no doubt yourself and other notable " conspiracy " theorists on here will tell me so
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 20:20:48 GMT
With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? I have to agree with Huddy here...... It's a load of bollocks Of course it is .......
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 20:22:05 GMT
With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? When you say, "greatest respect", are you using that in the Yes Minister kind of way? I hope he is ?.........but I think he means just the opposite ....which is fair enough
|
|
|
Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Dec 5, 2013 20:55:08 GMT
When you say, "greatest respect", are you using that in the Yes Minister kind of way? I hope he is ?.........but I think he means just the opposite ....which is fair enough No, it's the other way around, the more respect that is stated, the less respect is actually given... If a reporter or politician gives someone the utmost respect, they are giving absolutely no respect at all.
|
|
|
Post by boothenpaddock86 on Dec 5, 2013 21:04:08 GMT
so what happed to building 7 then? first building to ever collapse due to fire. no official inquiry into 9/11... mmm
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 5, 2013 21:29:59 GMT
With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? Because I do not believe that a government such as the American one or our own would be party to such an act of treachery and wanton deceit purely in order to further it's own ends , possibly a nieve way of thinking and no doubt yourself and other notable " conspiracy " theorists on here will tell me so I'm not so sure myself and there are just too many discrepancies to be honest. Incidentally the "with respect" was out of politness.
|
|
|
Post by Huddysleftfoot on Dec 5, 2013 21:31:14 GMT
I hope he is ?.........but I think he means just the opposite ....which is fair enough No, it's the other way around, the more respect that is stated, the less respect is actually given... If a reporter or politician gives someone the utmost respect, they are giving absolutely no respect at all. I was simply trying to be polite, sorry to disappoint.
|
|
|
Post by harryburrows on Dec 5, 2013 21:33:03 GMT
With the greatest respect, why is it "nonsense"? Because I do not believe that a government such as the American one or our own would be party to such an act of treachery and wanton deceit purely in order to further it's own ends , possibly a nieve way of thinking and no doubt yourself and other notable " conspiracy " theorists on here will tell me so I've never thought the USA government capable of such an act as you say bish , but they are pretty ruthless people at the heart of government .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 21:51:17 GMT
No, it's the other way around, the more respect that is stated, the less respect is actually given... If a reporter or politician gives someone the utmost respect, they are giving absolutely no respect at all. I was simply trying to be polite, sorry to disappoint. Not disappointed at all Huddy , your politeness is appreciated ......
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 21:58:30 GMT
Because I do not believe that a government such as the American one or our own would be party to such an act of treachery and wanton deceit purely in order to further it's own ends , possibly a nieve way of thinking and no doubt yourself and other notable " conspiracy " theorists on here will tell me so I've never thought the USA government capable of such an act as you say bish , but they are pretty ruthless people at the heart of government . I know there are Harry......but that kind of act would be something else wouldn't it ?.....I prefer to believe that they were not responsible .....how else otherwise can we go through life if we have to look at things in such a jaundiced and cynical way ? Do we have to see everything covert , corrupt and conspirital ? There must be some honesty and decency in our society .....or what's the point in it all ?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 21:02:30 GMT
So do we think these two will get life sentences? And will that be a minimum of 10 years? Of course they won't - it will be much longer even though that seems to be the tariff if the soldier who was sentenced today for murder of the captive Afghan guy is anything to go by . . .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 21:25:54 GMT
I've never thought the USA government capable of such an act as you say bish , but they are pretty ruthless people at the heart of government . I know there are Harry......but that kind of act would be something else wouldn't it ?.....I prefer to believe that they were not responsible .....how else otherwise can we go through life if we have to look at things in such a jaundiced and cynical way ? Do we have to see everything covert , corrupt and conspirital ? There must be some honesty and decency in our society .....or what's the point in it all ? I'm reading a highly recommended book at the moment Bish. It's called Civilization: the Six Killer Apps of Western Power by Niall Ferguson. He's a modern historian. I think it may appeal to you...and possibly answer, or give you a steer on your questions above. I've only read the preface so far but if that is anything to go on, it should be a blinder.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2013 21:35:59 GMT
I know there are Harry......but that kind of act would be something else wouldn't it ?.....I prefer to believe that they were not responsible .....how else otherwise can we go through life if we have to look at things in such a jaundiced and cynical way ? Do we have to see everything covert , corrupt and conspirital ? There must be some honesty and decency in our society .....or what's the point in it all ? I'm reading a highly recommended book at the moment Bish. It's called Civilization: the Six Killer Apps of Western Power by Niall Ferguson. He's a modern historian. I think it may appeal to you...and possibly answer, or give you a steer on your questions above. I've only read the preface so far but if that is anything to go on, it should be a blinder. My questions were not posed from an inquisitive angle ************** ......I already know what I think , but I may take a look at the book you recommend , purely out of interest , I'm never adverse to an alternative point of view as long as it is not thrown in my face as so often seems to happen unfortunately
|
|