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Post by thebet365 on Sept 27, 2013 11:47:07 GMT
Are there any clips of the one on one he missed against Tranmere? It wasn't a clear cut 1 on 1, assiaidi played him in I'd say roughly the middle of the 6 yard line and 18 yard line, he was running across the defender (Chance of a Pen) away from goal, then had a shot but dragged it too far across goal, A top goal scorer probably would have stuck it away, But I wouldn't put it in a missed a sitter category some have.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 27, 2013 11:48:26 GMT
Are there any clips of the one on one he missed against Tranmere? It wasn't a clear cut 1 on 1, assiaidi played him in not I'd say roughly the middle of the 6 yard line and 18 yard line, he was running across the defender (Chance of a Pen) away from goal, then had a shot but dragged it too far across goal, A top goal scorer probably would have stuck it away, But I wouldn't put it in a missed a sitter category some have. Cheers. His header was crap though!
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Post by foster on Sept 27, 2013 12:02:14 GMT
Walters needs to reduce the number of laps he does in training and use that time to focus on finishing.
Seems all we discuss about him on here is about how he repeatedly fails to convert chances.
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Post by jstoke7 on Sept 27, 2013 12:31:44 GMT
Walters needs to reduce the number of laps he does in training and use that time to focus on finishing. Seems all we discuss about him on here is about how he repeatedly fails to convert chances. I'm not convinced he's got the bottle for it. Just not a natural finisher, not even a natural footballer
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Post by The Stubborn Optimist on Sept 27, 2013 12:36:01 GMT
Right, so what this Malcolm bloke is saying, with support from some other posters like Hollybush, is that unless you're a manager or a player any opinion one might have regarding whether a player is any good or not is irrelevant or just plain wrong. Furthermore, those of us who struggle to comprehend what Walters does for the team are thick and should just shut the fuck up.
Can I just say I've never played or managed at a professional level, this might explain why whenever watching Walters I think I'm looking at a dog with a balloon?
Thank you.
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Post by thehoof on Sept 27, 2013 16:28:50 GMT
Well, Owd and Malcolm do have a point - TP and LMH both seem to see SJW as a necessary starter; however it then (in Malcolm's case) is tried to be justified by reference to a manager's scouting list, on which John always appears? Granted, I have no idea as to what offers Stoke receive for players, but the Sentinel has over the past 5 years in the EPL reported other clubs interests in people ranging from KJ, Crouchy, Jerome, Etherington,Whelan, Shawcross - one person conspicuously absent despite the high regard that the knowing "football world" hold him in, is SJW - I wonder why that is. I don't love or hate SJW, he is a decent squad player -he works hard, but gives away as many free kicks as Adam in defensive positions, often makes a 70 yard track back then neglects the final 10 yards (remember Ashley Cole's winner at Chelsea last year - guess who left him at the edge of the box?). All the fruitless running about then removes the yard of speed that might just make hime more of a threat in the opposition half, and at the end of the day the position that Walters plays in means that most of his productive work should be done in the opposition half, not ours. Still, LMH has got other players who could play in the Walters role, so he obviously rates SJW above the competition.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 27, 2013 16:31:52 GMT
The two own goals against Chelsea were down to dreadful defending too and sum him up beautifully. His heart was in the right place on both of them but for the first he was just too slow to react and for the second he was in a right muddle of a position to defend the ball.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 27, 2013 17:15:07 GMT
Not really much of a defence there to be fair Malcom, when you haven't once explained what YOU think Jon brings to the table. If you don't mind me saying. Why on earth should Malcolm need to explain anything? He's quite clearly shown that our current and previous manager both saw enough in JW to play him every week. Are you saying that that isn't good enough? Surprisingly, no-one on here is a proven Premiership manager, yet the opinions of two men who are or have been is somehow dismissed. If you know so much better than TP and LMH, why don't you get a job as a manager? Otherwise, I know damn well who's opinion I'll be considering, and it won't be any Oatcake poster.Yeah let's just shut the message board down then eh? Along with every tv football phone in, sports radio station and letters page to the editor columns. Football fans have different opinions to football managers, that's how, erm, it works. Jesus wept if everybody thought their opinion wasn't worth anything then there wouldn't be any discussion to be had would there? Surely the point is about having an opinion of your own though, if you think the manager's right that's absolutely fine but then explain WHY you think the manager is right or else it isn't actually your opinion is it? Bogus demonstrated earlier in the thread a proper defence of Walters, one where he articulated his own opinions about the player.
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Post by adamsson on Sept 27, 2013 17:19:12 GMT
Just imagine it, if Walters doesn't start on Sunday It would mark the end of the Pulis era.
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Post by harrysburrow on Sept 27, 2013 17:56:40 GMT
Why on earth should Malcolm need to explain anything? He's quite clearly shown that our current and previous manager both saw enough in JW to play him every week. Are you saying that that isn't good enough? Surprisingly, no-one on here is a proven Premiership manager, yet the opinions of two men who are or have been is somehow dismissed. If you know so much better than TP and LMH, why don't you get a job as a manager? Otherwise, I know damn well who's opinion I'll be considering, and it won't be any Oatcake poster.Yeah let's just shut the message board down then eh? Along with every tv football phone in, sports radio station and letters page to the editor columns. Football fans have different opinions to football managers, that's how, erm, it works. Jesus wept if everybody thought their opinion wasn't worth anything then there wouldn't be any discussion to be had would there? The point is about having a point of your own though, if you think the manager's right then that's absolutely fine but surely then explain WHY you think the manager is right or else it isn't actually your opinion is it? What.....voicing your opinion on a football forum? Not only that, but one that differs from the manager of the team you support! That's radical man!! Our last two managers have seen Walters as a first name on the team sheet/undroppable stalwart - what the fuck do you know? I mean, if consistently missing penaltys was a good reason for not taking them anymore, something would have been done about it. You just see him missing match winning opportunities on a weekly basis, losing his man defensively and giving away needless freekicks in dangerous areas and react negatively. Go away, get some coaching badges and comeback when you've managed a Premier League club....smart arse. Yours Sincerely, Alan Ball (RIP)
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Post by hollybush on Sept 27, 2013 21:23:20 GMT
And guess what? I really, actually mean this.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Sept 27, 2013 22:51:38 GMT
Right, so what this Malcolm bloke is saying, with support from some other posters like Hollybush, is that unless you're a manager or a player any opinion one might have regarding whether a player is any good or not is irrelevant or just plain wrong. Furthermore, those of us who struggle to comprehend what Walters does for the team are thick and should just shut the fuck up. Can I just say I've never played or managed at a professional level, this might explain why whenever watching Walters I think I'm looking at a dog with a balloon? Thank you. I'm afraid that is a significant misrepresentation of what I said. I certainly didn't say that the opinions of those who are not players or managers are necessarily irrelevant or wrong. And I most certainly didn't say that any fellow posters are thick or should just shut up. I have opinions about players, as we all do - it's part of the fun of being a fan. Our group sit in the pub before each game debating who we think should play. For the record, for what it's worth (not much, in all honesty) whilst, from among the current squad, I would always play Walters away from home, and at home against the better teams, I'm not quite so sure I would always play him at home against teams who might come to set up shop to defend, and need breaking down. Maybe like Norwich. What I did do was to challenge two themes. First, that Walters is a championship player at best, who brings little to the team and is lacking in basic skills at this level and second that he wouldn't get into the team of any other PL club. If that were true, any Stoke manager who picked him would be an incompetent fool. I think it is inconceivable that any player who is as poor as that could ever notch up nearly 100 consecutive appearances at this level( for which he deserves congratulations). I was trying to give some balance to the thread. I also suggested that there are some players who are rated more by the professionals than many fans, and I think JW is one of those. When that happens, rather than just rubbish the player and the coaches who pick him, maybe we should just reflect that perhaps they do know a bit more than we do. It's their job, they are qualified and experienced to do it, and they have far more information about the players than we do. Of course some of them turn out to be no good at the job but on any reasonable judgement, you wouldn't put either Tony Pulis or Mark Hughes into that category. Personally, I don't know why TP ( and now MH) don't just ring up our pub and ask me what the team should be - because no Stoke City team which I have selected, prepared and decided the tactics for has ever lost And I'm told they both think they can do my job better than I can
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Post by owdestokie on Sept 27, 2013 23:08:47 GMT
Malcolm
Waste breath comes to mind
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Post by Jimm on Sept 28, 2013 3:25:43 GMT
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Post by stokeramblers on Sept 28, 2013 8:50:28 GMT
Looks like his teammates have picked up on the black/white thing... Denzel Washington to play him in a film
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Sept 28, 2013 8:51:19 GMT
Thanks for posting that, j1. I don't think he sounds dull at all. I thought it was quite an interesting insight.
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 28, 2013 8:58:39 GMT
When was the last time you came across a footballer who struck you as interesting? Have come across players who sound duller than that.
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Post by roylandstoke on Sept 28, 2013 9:26:25 GMT
I'm going to stick up for Jon Walters,
Yes he does have weaknesses and limitations in his game that are really obvious when we see him playing against the best in the world, but he is not as bad as many on here are claiming. Every team in the Prem, outside of the biggest 6 teams, has a few players who aren't quite good enough; Jon Walters is probably one who fits this description. Football is an 11 player game. If you don't have 11 top class players ( We probably have no more than 5) then you have to get the best out of your squad players. Its easy to compare Walters unfavourably with other teams top players, but we should really compare his contribution with our peers squad player. If you do that you see a disciplined footballer who does the job that his manager asks him to do. At his best he brings aggression and closing down that unsettles the opposition. At the end of 2010-11 season he did a really good job for us, really highlighting what he can bring to the team. He gets the odd goal too. ( Not enough I know but how many 2nd/3rd strikers at clubs of our size get more?)
At his worst his poor touch and vision can make him look out of his depth. Many Prem league players have times when they look out of their depth. This is why we have 14 teams every year who can not realistically challenge for the title.
Hughes seems to think Walters is currently his best option in that right side position this year. Personally I think only Pennant of the current squad is capable of consideration as an alternative. I Imagine if Walters form is poor then Pennant will get a chance.
It is easy to slag off Jon Walters.
I think we all really know that the main problem with Jon Walters was that the previous manager picked him when he was hopelessly out of form. That was not Jon Walters fault.
He is far from the best player in the league or even our squad, but he is a Stoke player. He has played a part in one of our most successful periods in league football. He must do something right now and again. He deserves our full support.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 28, 2013 10:59:14 GMT
I'm going to stick up for Jon Walters, Yes he does have weaknesses and limitations in his game that are really obvious when we see him playing against the best in the world, but he is not as bad as many on here are claiming. Every team in the Prem, outside of the biggest 6 teams, has a few players who aren't quite good enough; Jon Walters is probably one who fits this description. Football is an 11 player game. If you don't have 11 top class players ( We probably have no more than 5) then you have to get the best out of your squad players. Its easy to compare Walters unfavourably with other teams top players, but we should really compare his contribution with our peers squad player. If you do that you see a disciplined footballer who does the job that his manager asks him to do. At his best he brings aggression and closing down that unsettles the opposition. At the end of 2010-11 season he did a really good job for us, really highlighting what he can bring to the team. He gets the odd goal too. ( Not enough I know but how many 2nd/3rd strikers at clubs of our size get more?) At his worst his poor touch and vision can make him look out of his depth. Many Prem league players have times when they look out of their depth. This is why we have 14 teams every year who can not realistically challenge for the title. Hughes seems to think Walters is currently his best option in that right side position this year. Personally I think only Pennant of the current squad is capable of consideration as an alternative. I Imagine if Walters form is poor then Pennant will get a chance. It is easy to slag off Jon Walters. I think we all really know that the main problem with Jon Walters was that the previous manager picked him when he was hopelessly out of form. That was not Jon Walters fault. He is far from the best player in the league or even our squad, but he is a Stoke player. He has played a part in one of our most successful periods in league football. He must do something right now and again. He deserves our full support. Absolutely he did ... playing in the hole behind the man leading the line - it is without doubt, far and away, his best position. I would argure that he hasn't EVER been effective playing out wide for us though however. Really? What about Arnie? He's played there loads of times throughout his career.
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Post by Jimm on Sept 28, 2013 11:07:59 GMT
When was the last time you came across a footballer who struck you as interesting? Have come across players who sound duller than that. At my age, watching downton abbey & listening to classical music before a game isn't that appealing
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Post by roylandstoke on Sept 28, 2013 11:12:27 GMT
I see Arnie as first choice on the left.
We seem to be set up with two strikers either side of the target man in a 4-3-3, or a 4-2-3-1. Either way we need 2 wide attacking players in this system. Arnie or Ethers on the left, and Walters or JP on the right.
Shea and Assaidi both look a long way from first team material at the moment in my opinion.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 28, 2013 11:13:09 GMT
I suggest anyone who says he's shit should sit down and watch the full 90 minutes of the Semi against Bolton.
However he wouldn't be anywhere near my starting 11 tomorrow.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 28, 2013 11:17:18 GMT
But that's the thing isn't it, that game against Bolton came in a two month period golden period for him, before and since he hasn't shown that sort of form at all. That's the problem.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Sept 28, 2013 11:19:27 GMT
But that's the thing isn't it, that game against Bolton came in a two month period golden period for him before and since he hasn't shown that sort of form at all. That's the problem. Exactly.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 28, 2013 11:29:33 GMT
I see Arnie as first choice on the left. We seem to be set up with two strikers either side of the target man in a 4-3-3, or a 4-2-3-1. Either way we need 2 wide attacking players in this system. Arnie or Ethers on the left, and Walters or JP on the right. Shea and Assaidi both look a long way from first team material at the moment in my opinion. Are you saying that Arnie can't play on the right then? Because with respect, he can and has done on numerous occcasions.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 28, 2013 11:40:55 GMT
Any player who plays 100 games consecutively is going to be scapegoated. If he's an attacker who tends to miss too many chances then he'll get slated.
It's not Walters' fault that successive managers have valued him above other arguably more skilled options. Despite his (exaggerated technical deficiency) he's dogged, determined, physical and follows instructions to the letter.
It's not hard to see why managers like him and until others show the same level of professionalism and focus he won't be far from the starting eleven.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 28, 2013 11:49:28 GMT
Yep. Dull. Not a silicone titted bird, forgotten Ferrari, Hello spread or garage sized aquarium in sight. Just a bloke who battled back from the verge of blowing his natural talent. Came through the premature loss of his mother. Went through every parents nightmares with two of his kids. And managed to play 100 consecutive Premier League games.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 28, 2013 11:49:34 GMT
Any player who plays 100 games consecutively is going to be scapegoated. If he's an attacker who tends to miss too many chances then he'll get slated. It's not Walters' fault that successive managers have valued him above other arguably more skilled options. Despite his (exaggerated technical deficiency) he's dogged, determined, physical and follows instructions to the letter. It's not hard to see why managers like him and until others show the same level of professionalism and focus he won't be far from the starting eleven. That's the thing though, we've got two wingers in Pennant and Ethers who put in that hard work, can read the game better defensively and are better going forward. And Arnie seems like the same too (early days yet mind). His defensive value (as the thread started off with) is way overstated on the wing. Behind the striker I agree with You but I don't want my what's meant to be a number 10 position (the most creative role/area in a team) doing the work You'd ideally want a Labrador to do.
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Post by foxysgloves on Sept 28, 2013 11:54:42 GMT
Any player who plays 100 games consecutively is going to be scapegoated. If he's an attacker who tends to miss too many chances then he'll get slated. It's not Walters' fault that successive managers have valued him above other arguably more skilled options. Despite his (exaggerated technical deficiency) he's dogged, determined, physical and follows instructions to the letter. It's not hard to see why managers like him and until others show the same level of professionalism and focus he won't be far from the starting eleven. That's the thing though, we've got two wingers in Pennant and Ethers who put in that hard work, can read the game better defensively and are better going forward. And Arnie seems like the same too (early days yet mind). His defensive value (as the thread started off with) is way overstated on the wing. Behind the striker I agree with You but I don't want my what's meant to be a number 10 position (the most creative role/area in a team) doing the work You'd ideally want a Labrador to do. Agreed. On paper Ethers and JP are better options. In reality you can throw in late night piss ups, bust ups with the manager, glass backs, knees and groins. And the odd personal issue that seems to affect performance. Fact is, Walters is reliable if unspectacular. Solid if generally uninspiring. Vilify the managers for selecting him but not him for breaking his balls every time he plays. That's just dumb.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 28, 2013 12:05:54 GMT
That's the thing though, we've got two wingers in Pennant and Ethers who put in that hard work, can read the game better defensively and are better going forward. And Arnie seems like the same too (early days yet mind). His defensive value (as the thread started off with) is way overstated on the wing. Behind the striker I agree with You but I don't want my what's meant to be a number 10 position (the most creative role/area in a team) doing the work You'd ideally want a Labrador to do. Agreed. On paper Ethers and JP are better options. In reality you can throw in late night piss ups, bust ups with the manager, glass backs, knees and groins. And the odd personal issue that seems to affect performance. Fact is, Walters is reliable if unspectacular. Solid if generally uninspiring. Vilify the managers for selecting him but not him for breaking his balls every time he plays. That's just dumb. I think he's a liability.
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