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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 13, 2013 16:58:23 GMT
Yes I know it's revisiting old ground but I can't make up my mind up if the 2nd half of last season was by design or by accident?
Did Pulis, not necessarily want what happened, but did he encourage it?
Thinking back to last January's transfer window, both TP and Kempy sounded very annoyed and down at what had happened. TP has previous form for taking 'revenge' on the team's setup when things weren't going his way (the binary season), so it's not a massive leap of faith to think that the more negative approach was all part of his master plan. Some of his decisions (e.g. returning Crouch in favour of Kenwyn, parking the bus at frigging Swansea, etc.) can be explained by this. I think he may have been aiming to teach people a lesson, and it perhaps went too far (with him only changing things around at the last moment). Maybe he knew he was on the way out and thought that he'd show everyone how precarious our position in the Prem was.
Or did it just go wrong? Players lost form. The defence lost confidence. Some bad luck (cough)?
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Post by block27row27 on Jun 13, 2013 22:25:20 GMT
Interesting point, but I doubt that he would have put us at such a risk on purpose. After all, he loves the club. Probably think into it too deep:D
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Post by smiler_andy on Jun 13, 2013 22:31:50 GMT
Yes I know it's revisiting old ground but I can't make up my mind up if the 2nd half of last season was by design or by accident? Did Pulis, not necessarily want what happened, but did he encourage it? Thinking back to last January's transfer window, both TP and Kempy sounded very annoyed and down at what had happened. TP has previous form for taking 'revenge' on the team's setup when things weren't going his way (the binary season), so it's not a massive leap of faith to think that the more negative approach was all part of his master plan. Some of his decisions (e.g. returning Crouch in favour of Kenwyn, parking the bus at frigging Swansea, etc.) can be explained by this. I think he may have been aiming to teach people a lesson, and it perhaps went too far (with him only changing things around at the last moment). Maybe he knew he was on the way out and thought that he'd show everyone how precarious our position in the Prem was. Or did it just go wrong? Players lost form. The defence lost confidence. Some bad luck (cough)? Having had a season ticket during the binary season. There appeared to be similar goings on in my opinion. Going from Christmas period of the performances against Liverpool and Southampton and then changing the system and dropping KJ for Crouch made no sense at all. I wish I was wrong, though that is how it looked  Things have now changed and I would rather dwell on the positives of what we have achieved since promotion and I hope a more positive approach on the pitch with Hughes in control  |
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Post by Godo on Jun 14, 2013 12:48:03 GMT
Did anyone notice the grassy knoll that Mr Pulis had installed just outside the dug out?
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Post by ruts66 on Jun 14, 2013 13:51:00 GMT
I can understand Pulis and Coates 'frustrating' the Icelanders but I can't see what Pulis stood to gain 'frustrating' The Family.
Naah, not for me - I just think Pulis simply ran out of ability...
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jun 14, 2013 13:56:15 GMT
I don't think there's anything behind it, just think it was Pulis reverting to type tactics wise.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 14:04:14 GMT
One of the best defenses in Europe but don't score many
Injuries to a couple of players
Let in more goals
Lose confidence
Still don't create chances
basically don't let goals in and score a few equals points, let goals in and don't score many equals no points
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Post by swampySCFC on Jun 14, 2013 14:12:42 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that a Professional Manager would seek to destroy his own reputation because he couldnt have it away in the transfer market?
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 14, 2013 15:15:31 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that a Professional Manager would seek to destroy his own reputation because he couldnt have it away in the transfer market? Well please explain what happened in the binary season then. TP could have been politics? Maybe last season he was just trying to make a point? I'm far from certain but there does appear to be quite a bit of circumstantial evidence. There were things that affected the performances in the latter part of the season (like there were previously e.g. Wilson breaking his leg) - but there were also many strange decisions. |
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Post by alster on Jun 14, 2013 15:17:01 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that a Professional Manager would seek to destroy his own reputation because he couldnt have it away in the transfer market? Not destroy but maybe just tarnish, to put a broadside across a board that wanted to move in a different direction to what he did. I honestly don't know the answer to the OP one way or the other but to say its ridiculous for the notion to have crossed peoples minds particularly bearing in mind the individual in question, is ridiculous in itself. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 15:22:24 GMT
That he waited so long to change what obviously wasn't working in the second half of the season was curious, to say the least. As was the sudden inexplicable dismantling of the team that beat Liverpool.
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Post by alster on Jun 14, 2013 15:25:30 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting that a Professional Manager would seek to destroy his own reputation because he couldnt have it away in the transfer market? Well please explain what happened in the binary season then. TP appeared to be playing at politics and that certainly affected the approach to games. Maybe last season he was just trying to make a point? I'm far from certain but there does appear to be quite a bit of circumstantial evidence. There were things that affected the performances in the latter part of the season (like there were previously e.g. Wilson breaking his leg) - but there were also many strange decisions. Well the playing club polotics out on the football pitch, he'd definitely got previous for. The bizzare decisions I believe were just a fairly consistent part of the blokes make up. I never really knew he was such a devout Christian until shortly before he went. Explains quite a lot to me, I really struggle to understand or trust religious types of any description. Sorry, not looking to offend anyone. People of faith just just spook me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 15:39:17 GMT
i don't think he intentionally played chicken with our survival chances...even if he knew he was off out the door in the summer and throwing a paddy because of it he wouldn't be that unprofessional as, if nothing else, it would massively impact on his ability to get another job if people saw him doing that. the square pegs in round holes situation has been going on for a long time, far far before this apparent "Conspiracy" by Pulis and the fact that we didn't attack teams and were happy to park the bus and just hope we "Nick one" i think was 100% solely down to his stubborn attitude to ensure we got to 40 points (29 points by New year, only 11 needed so why risk going all out when we have plenty of games to get just the 11...daft i know, you know, we all know but at the same time we also all know just how Pulis viewed that 40 point mark)
no doubt whatsoever that this almost backfired dramatically but i don't think it was anything more than Pulis reverting to type and deciding the be all and end all was the 40 point mark and that should have been easily attainable so why risk being gung ho.
i think it's largely this complete lack of ambition that did for him in the end though as we learned very very quickly that if you try that overly cautious approach both home AND away (especially when our points in the Prem so far have been predominantly gained at home) that just a couple of bad results can spiral into a seriously bad run and then it's brown trousers time! i also don't think he "Turned it around" at the end of the season either...we just happened to come up against two of the shittest teams in the league at the right time, it's not as if we suddenly got back to form or played like we did against Liverpool; if it had been any other teams we'd faced we'd still have looked absolute shit, we just looked better than we had been for ages because of the complete dirth of quality of QPR and Norwich nothing more than that.
yes, there's no doubt at all that there was a falling out in January re: transfers (possibly the worst kept secret this season) but i don't think it was anything like what happened in the binary season; that was different in that he was basically being told who to buy whereas this time he was just being told not to splash massive cash on old players that we can't shift on on the future and there's also a MASSIVE difference between his relationship with Coates (the family have been triffic) compared to his relationship with the Icelandics.
too stubborn? yes
too cautious? yes
nowhere near enough ambition? undoubtedly
the kind of bloke that would intentionally flirt with relegation and bugger up his bezzie mate's dream for the club just to prove a point? nah, think this is a bit over the top even for the most rabid of PHWs to be honest
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Post by alster on Jun 14, 2013 15:51:27 GMT
i don't think he intentionally played chicken with our survival chances...even if he knew he was off out the door in the summer and throwing a paddy because of it he wouldn't be that unprofessional as, if nothing else, it would massively impact on his ability to get another job if people saw him doing that. the square pegs in round holes situation has been going on for a long time, far far before this apparent "Conspiracy" by Pulis and the fact that we didn't attack teams and were happy to park the bus and just hope we "Nick one" i think was 100% solely down to his stubborn attitude to ensure we got to 40 points (29 points by New year, only 11 needed so why risk going all out when we have plenty of games to get just the 11...daft i know, you know, we all know but at the same time we also all know just how Pulis viewed that 40 point mark) no doubt whatsoever that this almost backfired dramatically but i don't think it was anything more than Pulis reverting to type and deciding the be all and end all was the 40 point mark and that should have been easily attainable so why risk being gung ho. i think it's largely this complete lack of ambition that did for him in the end though as we learned very very quickly that if you try that overly cautious approach both home AND away (especially when our points in the Prem so far have been predominantly gained at home) that just a couple of bad results can spiral into a seriously bad run and then it's brown trousers time! i also don't think he "Turned it around" at the end of the season either...we just happened to come up against two of the shittest teams in the league at the right time, it's not as if we suddenly got back to form or played like we did against Liverpool; if it had been any other teams we'd faced we'd still have looked absolute shit, we just looked better than we had been for ages because of the complete dirth of quality of QPR and Norwich nothing more than that. yes, there's no doubt at all that there was a falling out in January re: transfers (possibly the worst kept secret this season) but i don't think it was anything like what happened in the binary season; that was different in that he was basically being told who to buy whereas this time he was just being told not to splash massive cash on old players that we can't shift on on the future and there's also a MASSIVE difference between his relationship with Coates (the family have been triffic) compared to his relationship with the Icelandics. too stubborn? yes too cautious? yes nowhere near enough ambition? undoubtedly the kind of bloke that would intentionally flirt with relegation and bugger up his bezzie mate's dream for the club just to prove a point? nah, think this is a bit over the top even for the most rabid of PHWs to be honest All just opinions, I really don't think any of them are utterly ridiculous something went very very sour at the club in January. What exactly it was, we'll probably never know the truth. |
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Post by robwahlmann on Jun 14, 2013 15:57:09 GMT
No, don't belive this at all! Think TP would try to win every game if he could!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 15:57:57 GMT
No, don't belive this at all! Think TP would try to win every game if he could! Come on, he blatantly hasn't done that even if you don't buy the conspiracy theories. |
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Post by robwahlmann on Jun 14, 2013 16:02:24 GMT
No, don't belive this at all! Think TP would try to win every game if he could! Come on, he blatantly hasn't done that even if you don't buy the conspiracy theories. I'm sure he did! If you don't think so it's up to you, but I certainly do! Do you think TP would have lost his job if we had taken 10 more points? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 16:07:26 GMT
i don't think he intentionally played chicken with our survival chances...even if he knew he was off out the door in the summer and throwing a paddy because of it he wouldn't be that unprofessional as, if nothing else, it would massively impact on his ability to get another job if people saw him doing that. the square pegs in round holes situation has been going on for a long time, far far before this apparent "Conspiracy" by Pulis and the fact that we didn't attack teams and were happy to park the bus and just hope we "Nick one" i think was 100% solely down to his stubborn attitude to ensure we got to 40 points (29 points by New year, only 11 needed so why risk going all out when we have plenty of games to get just the 11...daft i know, you know, we all know but at the same time we also all know just how Pulis viewed that 40 point mark) no doubt whatsoever that this almost backfired dramatically but i don't think it was anything more than Pulis reverting to type and deciding the be all and end all was the 40 point mark and that should have been easily attainable so why risk being gung ho. i think it's largely this complete lack of ambition that did for him in the end though as we learned very very quickly that if you try that overly cautious approach both home AND away (especially when our points in the Prem so far have been predominantly gained at home) that just a couple of bad results can spiral into a seriously bad run and then it's brown trousers time! i also don't think he "Turned it around" at the end of the season either...we just happened to come up against two of the shittest teams in the league at the right time, it's not as if we suddenly got back to form or played like we did against Liverpool; if it had been any other teams we'd faced we'd still have looked absolute shit, we just looked better than we had been for ages because of the complete dirth of quality of QPR and Norwich nothing more than that. yes, there's no doubt at all that there was a falling out in January re: transfers (possibly the worst kept secret this season) but i don't think it was anything like what happened in the binary season; that was different in that he was basically being told who to buy whereas this time he was just being told not to splash massive cash on old players that we can't shift on on the future and there's also a MASSIVE difference between his relationship with Coates (the family have been triffic) compared to his relationship with the Icelandics. too stubborn? yes too cautious? yes nowhere near enough ambition? undoubtedly the kind of bloke that would intentionally flirt with relegation and bugger up his bezzie mate's dream for the club just to prove a point? nah, think this is a bit over the top even for the most rabid of PHWs to be honest All just opinions, I really don't think any of them are utterly ridiculous something went very very sour at the club in January. What exactly it was, we'll probably never know the truth. yeah probably right...personally i don't think he'd risk his own career by playing silly games (let's face it he's far higher profile than he was during the binary season or when he was at Gillingham where he played silly buggers) but like you say we'll probably never know.having said that i don;t really see why we still care...he's gone, time to move on methinks! |
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 14, 2013 16:15:16 GMT
All just opinions, I really don't think any of them are utterly ridiculous something went very very sour at the club in January. What exactly it was, we'll probably never know the truth. yeah probably right...personally i don't think he'd risk his own career by playing silly games (let's face it he's far higher profile than he was during the binary season or when he was at Gillingham where he played silly buggers) but like you say we'll probably never know.having said that i don;t really see why we still care...he's gone, time to move on methinks! But surely when he did this before he was a struggling lower league manager. If he hadn't succeeded with us then there weren't going to be too many decent jobs on offer (Plymouth for example). Some say he still did it and risked causing himself future problems (let's face it after a handful of lower league management roles and a lower league playing career, he wasn't rolling in it was he). Compare that to this year. The bloke's a multi-millionaire (and rightly so after what he achieved for us). He never has to work another day if he wants. The worse that could happen is that he gets the sack and reputation suffers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 16:16:26 GMT
Come on, he blatantly hasn't done that even if you don't buy the conspiracy theories. I'm sure he did! If you don't think so it's up to you, but I certainly do! Do you think TP would have lost his job if we had taken 10 more points? Almost certainly not. 10 points is a lot of points though and he in large part has himself to blame that we didn't. Managers who look to win every game tend not to use phrases like 'bonus game', tend to fill their bench when playing in Europe and tend to not have the risible away record we did. |
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 14, 2013 16:17:19 GMT
Come on, he blatantly hasn't done that even if you don't buy the conspiracy theories. I'm sure he did! If you don't think so it's up to you, but I certainly do! Do you think TP would have lost his job if we had taken 10 more points? Rob W - I know you're an optimist (and that's cool), but to claim that Pulis tried to win every game is quite astonishing. |
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Post by robwahlmann on Jun 14, 2013 17:19:11 GMT
I'm sure he did! If you don't think so it's up to you, but I certainly do! Do you think TP would have lost his job if we had taken 10 more points? Rob W - I know you're an optimist (and that's cool), but to claim that Pulis tried to win every game is quite astonishing. I think he tried to win every game where he thought we had a decent chance to. In certain games as away to Man C. and at home to Man U. I really think he tried to marginalize the defeat. Anyway he always tried to achieve what he thought was the best possible result we could hope for. |
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Post by lordb on Jun 14, 2013 17:21:49 GMT
Truly astonished that anyone considers this sort of angle a possibility.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 17:25:15 GMT
Rob W - I know you're an optimist (and that's cool), but to claim that Pulis tried to win every game is quite astonishing. I think he tried to win every game where he thought we had a decent chance to. In certain games as away to Man C. and at home to Man U. I really think he tried to marginalize the defeat. Anyway he always tried to achieve what he thought was the best possible result we could hope for. Writing off games that fans pay good money to see is pretty poor form isn't it? Any club is capable of an upset on its day and our away form could hardly get much worse as it was. |
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 14, 2013 17:32:18 GMT
Truly astonished that anyone considers this sort of angle a possibility. Truly astonishing that given all the evidence that people won't/can't consider the possibility. I'm not saying it definitely did happen, merely that it may have happened. |
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Post by lordb on Jun 14, 2013 17:35:11 GMT
look youth 2nd half of last seaon was just shit
TP deliberatly engineerd this because of transfer policy?
give over!
what else do you consider might be possible?
Earth might be flat after all?
Michael Jackson might not have been a paedophile?
If you actually right I'll buy you a pint on my birthday (30th February)
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 14, 2013 17:36:02 GMT
I think he tried to win every game where he thought we had a decent chance to. In certain games as away to Man C. and at home to Man U. I really think he tried to marginalize the defeat. Anyway he always tried to achieve what he thought was the best possible result we could hope for. Writing off games that fans pay good money to see is pretty poor form isn't it? Any club is capable of an upset on its day and our away form could hardly get much worse as it was. The number of times I've sat watching MotD and seeing Wigan/Southampton/Blackburn/WBA etc. pull off a lucky/spectacular win against the likes of Man Utd, City, Chelsea. We just didn't even try most of the time. Sad. |
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Post by jonnybravo on Jun 14, 2013 17:54:48 GMT
Yes I know it's revisiting old ground but I can't make up my mind up if the 2nd half of last season was by design or by accident? Did Pulis, not necessarily want what happened, but did he encourage it? Thinking back to last January's transfer window, both TP and Kempy sounded very annoyed and down at what had happened. TP has previous form for taking 'revenge' on the team's setup when things weren't going his way (the binary season), so it's not a massive leap of faith to think that the more negative approach was all part of his master plan. Some of his decisions (e.g. returning Crouch in favour of Kenwyn, parking the bus at frigging Swansea, etc.) can be explained by this. I think he may have been aiming to teach people a lesson, and it perhaps went too far (with him only changing things around at the last moment). Maybe he knew he was on the way out and thought that he'd show everyone how precarious our position in the Prem was. Or did it just go wrong? Players lost form. The defence lost confidence. Some bad luck (cough)? Me and my family have virtually said the same every club he's been at he's done the same and been sacked |
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Post by leicspotter on Jun 14, 2013 18:14:23 GMT
I've said many times that when TP doesn't get hiw own way he does things to "make a point" (and open St Peter's wallet!!) and I'm sure that January 2013 was another example of this (and I'm not anti-Pulis). Maybe this time it was harder to get back on track, it certainly felt that way in February and March!
I guess we will never know, and in any case, I will always be grateful for what he achieved at Stoke.
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Post by robwahlmann on Jun 14, 2013 18:14:50 GMT
I think he tried to win every game where he thought we had a decent chance to. In certain games as away to Man C. and at home to Man U. I really think he tried to marginalize the defeat. Anyway he always tried to achieve what he thought was the best possible result we could hope for. Writing off games that fans pay good money to see is pretty poor form isn't it? Any club is capable of an upset on its day and our away form could hardly get much worse as it was. I didn't say agreed to his approach in every game, but I'm absolutely certain his decisions always were based on what he thought was the best for the team. Do you remember Macarty (Wolves) putting out a reserve team against United? He did it because he thought his team would benefit from it the next game which he thought was winable. |
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