Everyone else has had their say......

[Vestan Pance]

Afternoon,

I stopped posting on here a couple of years ago when the eponymous davesviews thread drove me to an outburst that was offensive, ill mannered and, perhaps most abhorrently, displayed poor grammar. I threw my toys out the pram never to return. Well, under a different name perhaps, but here I am.

It's only fair firstly that I contextualise things, lest there be any judgement later on. I am not impartial, not in any way. I have never been Pulis' biggest fan. As far as I am concerned anyone who returns to a club after his little binary stunt (designed purely to piss the board of directors off) should not be allowed in professional football again, let alone be permitted to return to the scene of his crime. I was, to put it mildly, disgusted. People talk (quite rightly in fairness) of the massive leaps the club has taken forward since his re-appointment, however few people seem to want to talk about that season. Frankly, he very nearly killed the club. There was no excuse, rhyme nor reason for what he did. The owners of a business have the right to dictate the strategic direction that the club takes, and what Pulis did flew in the face of that for his own personal reasons. It was lamentable and I have never truly forgiven that, though like many I will freely admit to forgetting it during his remarkable first three years in the Premier League. The man has his merits, irrespective of how things end up at Stoke, let's never forget his achievements. Compared to some of the wankers we have had stood on the touchline, he's practically a footballing genius.

It's odd how people regard just what is and is not success. It remains the crux of the polarisation that our fan base has experienced over the past 18 months and it is, I'm sure from an outsiders' perspective, difficult to ascertain. We remain, by and large, expected to stay in the Premier League for another year, and one would imagine Pulis will find the necessary combination required in order to do obtain the 8 or so points required to do that. But it's not enough anymore, and in fairness, it cannot be expected to be.

Let's get a few fairly honest truths out there; we have to stop comparing ourselves to Charlton. They made a massive error of judgement because the manager in charge at the club was absolutely maximising the capability both on the pitch and fiscally from the club. They were turning in a healthy profit and holding their place in the league, whilst also accepting of the fact that the occasional home-grown starlet was going to move on to pastures new, at a healthy profit. At no point did Curbishley enjoy the kind of financial backing that Pulis has had at Stoke, not by any measure of means whatsoever. The clubs are as far apart in their fiscal planning and ethics as they are geographically. If you want to draw any parallels between teams, then you would have to look at the expensively assembled Newcastle squad that were relegated two years ago. Ageing squad with little sell on value, long term contracts and little from the youth and reserve team ranks. The only problem we have is that they have 50,000 Geordies come rain or shine. We don't have that business model.

The second point is that apparently Pulis is the only man capable of keeping us in this division. Far from this being a robust defence of his management capability, it's a bloody frightening admission of his capability in the transfer market. For too long, Pulis has used Stoke as his own version of Championship Manager, buying expensive assets on a whim, not using them, then disposing them at a loss to Stoke City PLC. In truth, the squad is no stronger in terms of it's capacity for playing Pulisball than it was in the second year of our tenure in this division. We have better quality players, of that there is no doubt, but of the squad I would contend that Cameron, Upson, Palacios, N'Zonzi, Edu, Wilson, Kightly, Adam, Shea, Owen, Crouch & Jerome would consider Pulisball anathema. They don't understand it. These players are natural footballers (Jerome excepted, in fairness) who have been purchased or whose services have been obtained at no small cost to the club, but cannot play the Pulis way. That's why their performances are waning. They don't understand why international footballers are being barked at maniacally by a man whose own talents were significantly more limited (generally limited to kicking other people in the arse end of the football league) and his desperate need to constrain every aspect of our play. They look confused, angry and frequently upset because they don't know what they are doing here, literally rather than figuratively. There's times I cannot blame them.

Looking at the squad, it's completely imbalanced and ageing at an unhealthy rate. We have no real options out wide bar the ineffective Etherington, the hopelessly out of sorts Kightly and the now redundant in all but name Pennant. Brek Shea isn't ready, so for a team that relies so heavily on width we're already buggered. We have no full backs bar the two worst in the division, Wilkinson & Shotton, the latter inexplicably kept at the club as wing cover whilst Pulis went ahead and sold Ben Marshall, now a £1,000,000 England U21 international. Our central midfield retains the services of Glenn Whelan, who is just getting worse in leaps and bounds, a hamstrung Charlie Adam, a Stephen N'Zonzi who looks more like Patrick Swayze than Patrick Viera these days and doesn't include a Wilson Palacios, an £8,000,000 mistake who has never even been given a chance, nor an explanation proffered as to why this is the case. Up front we have a genuine goalscorer (Jerome) left out for a genuine non goal-scorer (Walters) and a Crouch who, should he get less mobile, will end up on the Ordinance Survey maps. Of all the decisions, I find this the most strange. Jones & Jerome are made for Pulisball, quick, fit, hard running central forwards with a bit of something about them. They haven't been given a chance because of Pulis' need to justify the Crouch purchase and his affection for Walters. Odd isn't the word.

Without wanting to overegg an already doughy pudding, I think we are at breaking point as a club. Tony Pulis is not the only manager that has his favourites, or one who makes baffling calls regarding team selection, but the quality of performance of late leaves nothing but massive cause for concern. It is my view that he has been the victim of his own success in many ways; the build up of expectation because of our previous comfortable position in the table has meant that a manager used to scrapping for his life is now in a different position, one where short-termism isn't enough and where a genuine plan to develop and mould a club is required, and my contention is that he has neither the talent as a manager or the vision to complete these tasks. Of course at the back of his mind he needs to consider the 40 point mark, every club of our stature has to do that, but deep down he should be thinking of how we can move forward, how we can stop the excessive expenditure and replace when he can with home-grown aspects of the club. He doesn't want to do that. He wants to talk about 40 points, every single bloody year. He talks constantly about looking after the family money but does nothing of the sort, talks of poor refereeing decision when the fault has lain solely at our ineptitude on the field of play and has constricted our style of play to the point where it's become a parody of itself. His position has been too safe for too long, there has never been any interaction of any sort with the fan base because he considers us stupid and ignorant, despite the fact that people like Old Stokie have probably seen more games of football that he has. You don't need to be an actor to realise half way through a play that it is shit. Why is football any different?

So what to do? I think the time has come for a change. Those who sit firmly in the Pulis corner (who as a matter of interest I have a great deal of respect for; loyalty, as we see in football nearly every week, is a completely undervalued quality in a person) would expect this, but I would stand by it none the less. What we need is manager who understands that it cannot solely be about the destination (40 points) but also the journey. Someone who understands supporters will accept the fact that we will play poorly on occasion but also want the thrills and spills, the highs and lows that are experienced up and down the country; the very essence of what it is to be a football supporter. Someone who encourages his players to play without fear of recrimination if they stick to the task at hand, someone who understands English football but can also spot a foreign talent, or a young up and coming player within the ranks who could do the job required. Someone to build on the intrinsic qualities of the squad with exciting, fresh talents to move us forward as a unit. Someone to take the shackles off and tell these multi-millionaire players to go and play, to encourage rather than chastise. To build rather than just destroy. To appreciate that there are other qualities that players can possess rather than those (strength, honesty, work ethic) extolled in the lower leagues. Someone who will make me enjoy my football again.

I know what you are thinking; nobody out there. Well there is. Ask Brighton. No, seriously Peter, please. Go and ask Brighton.

That's all folks, nice to be back.

The artist formerly known as Vestan Pance

[johnsmithsupper]

If i was Peter Coates i'd be worried, the level of intellect against Pulis instead of just saying pulis is a tosser etc is phenominal at the moment.

Real levels of dissatisfaction being expressed in incredibly articulate ways, from dixie and ted this am.

[Peters Pipe]

Bravo sir, well said.

[Deleted]

You lost me at "eponymous"....I have no idea what it means....

Other than that....well said!

[Paul Spencer]

Cracking post there VP.

[thehoof]

Absolutely a top, top article.
TP has reached the absolute limit of his usefulness, if the club are truely to progress.
Remember Brian Clough - a true legend whom a misguided sense of loyalty to, by the Board and Fans, led to NF FC slipping out of the league, and from which they have not properly recovered.
Everyone has a sell by date - TP has now done so.
Please go with dignity, and at least keep respect for your achievements 2007 -2011.

[salopstick]

Great post ted

[greyman]

I'd be amazzed* and disappointed if that didn't end up in the Oatcake.

[Vestan Pance]

Spelling was never my forté.

And Salop, close old bean, close

[Pirate]

Superb post, sums it up very well & is a cracking read as well.

[elystokie]

Mar 4, 2013 13:45:54 GMT greyman said:

I'd be amazzed* and disappointed if that didn't end up in the Oatcake.

Indeed.

Excellent work VP

[Harpoon Louie]

Absolutely spot on, and worryingly so.

[greyman]

Mar 4, 2013 13:52:25 GMT Vestan Pance said:

Spelling was never my forté.

Theirs'* at least one dodgy use of apostrophe in there as well.

[Vestan Pance]

Mar 4, 2013 13:58:01 GMT greyman said:

Mar 4, 2013 13:52:25 GMT Vestan Pance said:

Spelling was never my forté.

Theirs'* at least one dodgy use of apostrophe in there as well.

I would be bloody disappointed if their* wa'snt**

Oh, and up yours ;D

[okeydokeystokie2]

Good post, Dixie, well constructed argument.

Where we differ is that I believe that Pulis wants the same as you, me and everybody else.

I think he is trying to change and has bought better quality players who offer more. He is struggling to get it right though. The plan of playing Adam higher up the pitch with Crouch hasn't worked out yet, and the wide players have been so out of sorts we have become really one dimensional.

It's a bit of a mess at the moment and we need sort out our best way of playing, best formation and make some changes to the squad in summer.

We are in a great position though with a brilliant owner, fantastic facilities and infrastructure. If we can sort the wide positions out, which isn't easy, we can get back on track.

Many said that 2011 was one of the best in our history. 2012 and the first 2 months of 2013 haven't lived up to that, and it's the first time we seem to have stopped improving or even gone backwards. It's a hell of a job to keep that upward development every season.

Tony Pulis made me feel really proud of my club again and, as I have said before, I think he deserves a bit of loyalty and time.

[nik80]

That was a great read and I find it difficult to disagree with anything you mention.

And after last season, I cannot believe what I'm about to pull you up on here, but for me Ryan Shotton hasn't put a foot wrong this season, so I would cut him some slack at this point.

I dunno how old he is these days (probably a 35 year old kiddie) but playing at right back I think he's holding his own.

Don't switch him to the left, don't ask him to play in midfield and I think I'd be happy for him to make the position his.

Although, I suppose being deprived of watching true fullbacks/wing backs for the entire Pulis reign could have clouded my judgment on this

[rabbigan]

Great post Dixie. You have articulated what most of us are feeling.

There is an old guy sits in front of me with other members of his family who has been supporting Stoke for 81 years who told me Saturday before the game that his passion and love for the club had been killed off by the tripe we play and that he and his family were not renewing season tickets.

They all left 20 minutes before the end.

I have only done 63 years but am feeling exactly as you feel

[blurtonboy]

First off, a well thought out & educated thread.

Secondly, probably too many long words for most people on here too understand.

Thirdly, it could have been summed up in 2 words, PULIS OUT.

[jeycov]

I just don't understand how we can play so well against a team like Liverpool and then churn out so many poor performances since then. We scored 3 goals !!!

The team players / squad are virtually the same, same pitch, same fans getting behind the team, same manager ..........

Panic has set in both on and off the field, why?

I really didn't know what to say after West Ham scored or at the end of the game on Saturday.
With fellow fans we just stood and stared blankly at the pitch and each other.


Yes I wil probably renew my season ticket, but I'm questioning the value for money aspect of such a purchase.

I'm praying that the next few games will bring back some smiles and lift the gloom

[Vestan Pance]

Mar 4, 2013 14:00:42 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

Good post, Dixie, well constructed argument.

Where we differ is that I believe that Pulis wants the same as you, me and everybody else.

I think he is trying to change and has bought better quality players who offer more. He is struggling to get it right though. The plan of playing Adam higher up the pitch with Crouch hasn't worked out yet, and the wide players have been so out of sorts we have become really one dimensional.

It's a bit of a mess at the moment and we need sort out our best way of playing, best formation and make some changes to the squad in summer.

We are in a great position though with a brilliant owner, fantastic facilities and infrastructure. If we can sort the wide positions out, which isn't easy, we can get back on track.

Many said that 2011 was one of the best in our history. 2012 and the first 2 months of 2013 haven't lived up to that, and it's the first time we seem to have stopped improving or even gone backwards. It's a hell of a job to keep that upward development every season.

Tony Pulis made me feel really proud of my club again and, as I have said before, I think he deserves a bit of loyalty and time.

Thanks for that, and as I maintain I'm not in the habit of slagging off those with a contradictory opinion. I appreciate and understand your loyalty. It does you credit, sincerely,

But I have to disagree. That's the horrible thing about this. Adam was a free scoring midfielder for Blackpool because he is good in dead ball positions and was given opportunity to move forward up the pitch when the opportunity arose. Ostensibly however he is a deep lying central midfielder, more comfortable taking the ball from the central defenders than fighting for the second ball from a flick on. It doesn't work for the simple reason that they lack the pace needed to play like this. They are both too slow to do what is being asked of them. His beligerence in staying with what is manifestly not working is onw of his inherent frustrations.

If we have to play Pulisball, he has to alter the personnel. It should be

Shea (?) N'Zonzi Adam Etherington/Kightly/Pennant/Walters/Anyone who fancies a go

Jerome

Jones

It's the only way it can work, IMHO.

[rabbigan]

NIK 80
Sorry but Shotton is nowhere near good enough.
Far too slow on the turn and not good enough technically going forward.
Pulis had to switch him with Wilkinson because Jarvis was running rings around him on Saturday.
First and foremost fullbacks have to defend.
Finally he lacks good concentration and at times forgets where he is or where he should be.

[greyman]

Mar 4, 2013 14:08:05 GMT jeycov said:

I just don't understand how we can play so well against a team like Liverpool and then churn out so many poor performances since then. We scored 3 goals !!!

The team players / squad are virtually the same, same pitch, same fans getting behind the team, same manager ..........

Panic has set in both on and off the field, why?

I really didn't know what to say after West Ham scored or at the end of the game on Saturday.
With fellow fans we just stood and stared blankly at the pitch and each other.


Yes I wil probably renew my season ticket, but I'm questioning the value for money aspect of such a purchase.

I'm praying that the next few games will bring back some smiles and lift the gloom

The explanation for the Liverpool game can be found partly in Trouserdog's old on-the-money explanation of how we chance on the right formation every season only for us to then change it. And partly in the fact that we were set up perfectly to take advantage of a Liverpool team low on confidence but high on buggering about trying to pass it around in their own half.

[jezzascfc]

I have just got back from an exhausting business trip (yeah, my life is soooo glamorous - hotels, meeting rooms, airports........) and was considering penning my feelings on all things Stoke when I got a minute today. Thankfully, you have saved a very tired mind a job VP: please stay around, we need more of this logical, well constructed prose to justify our stance to those who cannot see the wood for the trees.

I feel like we are back in the days of Durban, another stubborn old goat of a Welshman who killed our joy in the desperate desire for a few 0-0 draws to cling to top division safety. I want to watch my team play some football; I do not want to go to the circus.......

[supersimonstainrod]

A clarion call to reason.Utterly fantastic post.

[paulinespens]

Fantastic post mate,

what i can't understand is why people keep on about "be careful what you wish for".We dont have to do a Charlton,Wolves etc if we change manager.We might just get better and progress or just stay where we are but be playing better football (dont think to many would be upset about that).I'd rather lose 3-2 with having a go than lose 1-0 trying to hold on to the point we start the game with.

Lets face it Pulis will go one day and things will have to change then.

[okeydokeystokie2]

Dixie, I've said in a previous thread that if you look at Charlie's passing and shooting, and then at his defensive positioning, tackling and fitness, you can see the logic of trying to play him higher up the pitch. I think they were trying to make him more effective and less of a defensive liability. It hasn't worked.

I think he's trying to refine Pulisball to make us better at breaking teams down. It clearly isn't working at the moment and maybe the key difference is that a fit Etherington and professional and committed Pennant are not there, and the alternatives (unfit Etherington and Walters/Kightly) have not been good enough.

Unfortunately, this season we will have to stick with Matty left and one of Kightly/Walters/Shea on the right. I think 2 simple changes might be Jones for Crouch and trying Adam in centre mid with N'Zonzi, probably at home at first.

[jamodinho]

Top read

[nik80]

Mar 4, 2013 14:11:04 GMT rabbigan said:

NIK 80
Sorry but Shotton is nowhere near good enough.
Far too slow on the turn and not good enough technically going forward.
Pulis had to switch him with Wilkinson because Jarvis was running rings around him on Saturday.
First and foremost fullbacks have to defend.
Finally he lacks good concentration and at times forgets where he is or where he should be.

Funny cos I thought he fared worse when Pulis switched him.

As I say, it's not that I don't think we need to buy two accomplished fullbacks, probably more that, given the awful season he had last year, at large I have been happy with his performances this time out.

I shit it when we were forced to put him back in the side but so far have been satisfied with the job he's done.

It isn't that I think he's, the finished article, more that there are other players in the team that I could readily criticise before Shotton.

[Vestan Pance]

Shotton was a promising central defender forced into a full back position.

The song is remarkably similar to those of Higgy, Wilkinson, Wilson etc etc etc...

[gorbals1863]

Blurtonboy, are you referring to yourself in your second point, if so don't put yourself down.