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Post by davejohnno1 on Nov 19, 2012 9:10:37 GMT
I have just read Roy Hodgson's latest quotes about England and his thoughts that it is now time to move on from Terry and Ferdinand and the heart of the defence.
Roy Hodgson says, and I quote;
"We are now looking at other players that we can play at centre half and we already have some interesting alternatives. We've had Jagielka and Lescott who have done well, Gary Cahill and Caulker did well against Sweden and I'm also looking for Chris Smalling and Phil Jones to come through. That is what I have got to do, to make certain that amongst that group of players someone will come through and force his way into my attention".
No mention of Ryan, again and I think it is pretty clear that both before and after Sweden, Shawcross is nothing more than an afterthought where Hodgson is concerned.
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Post by stockportstokie on Nov 19, 2012 9:14:15 GMT
The general footballing consensus is that he's a clogger, very unfortunate for Ryan that he's been handed that tag. The Stoke image plus Wenger has him doomed, sad but true.
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Post by rorymscfc on Nov 19, 2012 9:23:28 GMT
But you know that if he moves to ManU in January he be picked and put in the starting lineup at the first opportunity
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Post by Ryan_Shawjosh on Nov 19, 2012 9:25:05 GMT
Unfortunately, England are good at producing defenders, in particular CB's. You have to be a fantastic player to get into the England defence (I'm not saying Shawcross isn't) where as you can be an average attacking player and still have a chance of getting into the national team. I also think Shawcross does well for us playing alongside the right player. He's always had either Abdy or Huth (apart from the odd occasion) alongside him which suits him. When you have someone like Cahill etc who sometimes pushes out of defence, Shawcross would then be left on his own, whereas that wouldn't happen under Pulis. I think Shawcross would be best for England alongside Lescott.
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Post by biganddaft on Nov 19, 2012 9:25:48 GMT
Perhaps he needs to stop belting the ball forward as instructed, and pass it to our midfield?
That's what Hodgson will be wanting in his team and will clearly pick players who are better passers, before players who are better defenders.
Cahill being a classic example. Shite defender, but looks classy in possession.
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Post by worcsstokie15 on Nov 19, 2012 9:26:08 GMT
Gary Cahill, Steven Caulker and Phil Jones (as a centre half) are not fit to lace Ryan's boots.
I don't understand how Caulker has come out of the Sweden friendly with this image that he's the future of England's defence. I thought he had a poor game but was just fortunate that none of his mistakes led to goals. Scoring at the other end has obviously left most supporters/journalists/manager all starry eyed too.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 19, 2012 9:28:58 GMT
But you know that if he moves to ManU in January he be picked and put in the starting lineup at the first opportunity Was just about to post the same. If we was one of Sir Alex's player after the January window I'd imagine Roy would suddenly change his thoughts on Ryan. I'll give Roy the benefit of the doubt until the next squad is announced but if he does not give Ryan another chance then he's shown pretty poor form as a Manager. You'd have to assume that Ryan has done a lot of good work to get himself noticed and indeed, called up to two England squads. If Roy doesn't include him again he's basically saying "I saw enough in those 20 minutes to know that Ryan is cleary not good enough for England, it completely undoes all the hard work and progress he has made over the past few years". It's a ludicrous notion to suggest Ryan should be discarded based on a 20 minute spell. Yes, he made a mistake, but so did some of Roy's other favourites. He should have at least brought Ryan on at half time to give him a bit of time to settle in and show what he can do. If he drops him now he's been completely hung out to dry. And this just isn't "Stoke tinted glasses". I watched Soccer Saturday and they discussed it briefly and all of the pundits said exactly the same thing.
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Post by scfc75 on Nov 19, 2012 9:41:08 GMT
Perhaps he needs to stop belting the ball forward as instructed, and pass it to our midfield? That's what Hodgson will be wanting in his team and will clearly pick players who are better passers, before players who are better defenders. Cahill being a classic example. Shite defender, but looks classy in possession. So to enhance his England chances our captain should ignore instruction from the manager and do his own thing?
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Post by werrington on Nov 19, 2012 9:46:27 GMT
Lets cut to the chase here.
Ryan was only in the squads for San Marino and Poland because Caulker was needed to guarantee qualification for the u21s and he was only picked for the Sweden squad as a token gesture as he could not all of a sudden be discarded and hence a few minutes on the pitch to say thanks.
Even if he had not come onto the pitch in Stockholm he was never going to get picked again unless we have injuries.
Sadly once he signs for a major club he will be straight into the squad/team on a regular basis
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Post by werrington on Nov 19, 2012 9:50:51 GMT
Also for the Sweden game his name was never once mentioned in the media ( written or TV/Radio ) when they were talking about the team or new caps.
Its like he just wasnt there and not on the radar at all
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Post by Gods on Nov 19, 2012 10:06:57 GMT
Now he has got on the pitch is it too late for him to do the Wales thing?
I would hate to see Ryan's international career amount to 15 minutes of infamy.
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Post by werrington on Nov 19, 2012 10:08:57 GMT
Now he has got on the pitch is it too late for him to do the Wales thing? I would hate to see Ryan' international career amount to 15 minutes of infamy. No it was only a friendly
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Post by Gods on Nov 19, 2012 10:12:31 GMT
Now he has got on the pitch is it too late for him to do the Wales thing? I would hate to see Ryan' international career amount to 15 minutes of infamy. No it was only a friendly That has got to be the plan then hasn't it? A quick call to Aaron Ramsey first of course to make sure it's ok though
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Post by stokiejohn on Nov 19, 2012 10:14:05 GMT
Imo as much as Ryan is a very good defender , he is a very good defender for Stoke in our system . England / international central defenders ( as well as defending ) have to be good on the ball and pass to midfielders which Ryan as we know doesnt do . I understand he didnt warm up before coming on which is strange and maybe suggests it was a spur of the moment decision by Roy that didnt do Ryan any favour. My guess is this is about as far as Ryan's England career will go considering all the alternatives and his unfortunate 20 minutes , at least while he is at Stoke anyway !
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Post by biganddaft on Nov 19, 2012 10:20:30 GMT
Perhaps he needs to stop belting the ball forward as instructed, and pass it to our midfield? That's what Hodgson will be wanting in his team and will clearly pick players who are better passers, before players who are better defenders. Cahill being a classic example. Shite defender, but looks classy in possession. So to enhance his England chances our captain should ignore instruction from the manager and do his own thing? That's the problem mucka. For Ryan to ever become an established international, which I think we all universally agree he should do. He would have to develop his passing game to a higher level. He obviously won't go against what TP instructs him to do, so therefore he will never be considered a first choice for England. Our tactics are in stark contrast to the ones employed by the current England manager, and for what it's worth, I believe Hodgson has got it right, in terms of the football style he's trying to instil. If we are ever to win anything at international level again, this is the only route to go down. Possession is key now more than ever, as tackling is virtually outlawed in the modern game.
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Post by werrington on Nov 19, 2012 10:27:37 GMT
So to enhance his England chances our captain should ignore instruction from the manager and do his own thing? That's the problem mucka. For Ryan to ever become an established international, which I think we all universally agree he should do. He would have to develop his passing game to a higher level. He obviously won't go against what TP instructs him to do, so therefore he will never be considered a first choice for England. Our tactics are in stark contrast to the ones employed by the current England manager, and for what it's worth, I believe Hodgson has got it right, in terms of the football style he's trying to instil. If we are ever to win anything at international level again, this is the only route to go down. Possession is key now more than ever, as tackling is virtually outlawed in the modern game. I dont buy that logic as a reason for Shawcross not being good enough mate. Against Ukraine and Poland the centre halves spent the whole 90 mins giving the ball away as did the whole team virtually through the entire Euros
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Post by biganddaft on Nov 19, 2012 10:42:43 GMT
That's the problem mucka. For Ryan to ever become an established international, which I think we all universally agree he should do. He would have to develop his passing game to a higher level. He obviously won't go against what TP instructs him to do, so therefore he will never be considered a first choice for England. Our tactics are in stark contrast to the ones employed by the current England manager, and for what it's worth, I believe Hodgson has got it right, in terms of the football style he's trying to instil. If we are ever to win anything at international level again, this is the only route to go down. Possession is key now more than ever, as tackling is virtually outlawed in the modern game. I dont buy that logic as a reason for Shawcross not being good enough mate. Against Ukraine and Poland the centre halves spent the whole 90 mins giving the ball away as did the whole team virtually through the entire Euros Agree mate. We did not keep possession well in those games, but it's work in progress. You can see the direction that Hodgson is going in and it gives him the perfect excuse to not pick Ryan again, or take him and not play him, either way he's out of the first team picture. The Cahill selection says it all to me. The lad is one of the poorest big name signings to play centre half for England. He gets found out time and time again in defence. By the way. I do think Ryan is the best Defender out of all the names mentioned and I do think he should be given another chance to prove it. I just doubt we will see it happen while he wears a Stoke shirt.
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Nov 19, 2012 10:46:10 GMT
By the time Ryan got on we'd made so many changes that the team was disrupted to such an extent that any rhythm we had prior to the substitutions (when we were actually playing quite well) soon disappeared. He was on a hiding to nothing although I'm in the minority on this board that thinks Ryan isn't quite good enough for England. Sorry.
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Post by scfc75 on Nov 19, 2012 10:55:54 GMT
I'm not sure I buy into the opinion that Hodgson doesn't like Ryan because he hoofs it. What do you think he does in training with England? The coaches spend lots of time training formation, movement etc. - do you think they're telling Ryan to find a team-mate in training and he just aimlessly c*nts it up the pitch every time?
He was developed as a youngster at Man Utd, do you think he spent his time there just hoofing it? He's now made the squad twice, they must have seen enough in his first session to warrant calling him back a second time. If they didn't think he could pass, but that's what they wanted, then he wouldn't have been there.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Nov 19, 2012 11:39:53 GMT
Hodgson out. Montenegro beat us we are on the brink of failing to qualify. Shit negative football, fuck off Hodgson
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Post by foster on Nov 19, 2012 11:43:15 GMT
Ryans a decent player, but I think he's overrated by Stoke fans.
I cannot see him signing for a top 4 or even 6 club.
...and therefore, I cannot see him leaving Stoke in the near future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 11:57:36 GMT
I'm not sure I buy into the opinion that Hodgson doesn't like Ryan because he hoofs it. What do you think he does in training with England? The coaches spend lots of time training formation, movement etc. - do you think they're telling Ryan to find a team-mate in training and he just aimlessly c*nts it up the pitch every time? He was developed as a youngster at Man Utd, do you think he spent his time there just hoofing it? He's now made the squad twice, they must have seen enough in his first session to warrant calling him back a second time. If they didn't think he could pass, but that's what they wanted, then he wouldn't have been there. there are scores of players who were developed at Manchester United and then ended up in the Championship or lower.......can people please please realise that just because you were developed at a certain club when you were younger IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM indicates that you will therefore make the grade at that level in the future...it's the most ridiculous argument i've heard (and keeps getting spouted on here). if it WERE true then Man Utd. would have about 3,500 players to choose from when they pick their 25 man squad. as has been pointed out on several occasions beforehand, Ryan initially came into the squad for no reason whatsoever other than necessity due to injuries.....with Smalling only just back and Jones still not 100% that's why he was again chosen for the Sweden game. well done for getting the call up but the simple fact is that he was off the pace (regardless of when he came on, if people on here were right about Ryan's overwhelming quality and him being the best centre half since the dawn of time then you would have expected him, or in fact, ANY Premiership centre back to not just simply let his man run past him and not even notice) from the word go and was hopeless for the equalising goal...that was nothing to do with not warming up or not getting into the tempo of the game, he was badly caught ball watching and failed to see one of the best goalscorers in europe steal three yeards on him. he's a quality player for us and the way in which we play but won't feature for England under Hodgson because of the way Woy wants to play. for us, brilliant...for England, not yet
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Post by joinerssquire on Nov 19, 2012 11:57:43 GMT
Ryan wasn't let down by his passing the other night he just got outdone/caught cold by some superb forward play from Iba - he's not the first to be done by him and he won't be the last. Whether Hodgson will give him a second chance is anyone's guess but I wouldn't hold my breathe given what he has said about his options at centre back.
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Post by scfc75 on Nov 19, 2012 12:12:14 GMT
I'm not sure I buy into the opinion that Hodgson doesn't like Ryan because he hoofs it. What do you think he does in training with England? The coaches spend lots of time training formation, movement etc. - do you think they're telling Ryan to find a team-mate in training and he just aimlessly c*nts it up the pitch every time? He was developed as a youngster at Man Utd, do you think he spent his time there just hoofing it? He's now made the squad twice, they must have seen enough in his first session to warrant calling him back a second time. If they didn't think he could pass, but that's what they wanted, then he wouldn't have been there. there are scores of players who were developed at Manchester United and then ended up in the Championship or lower.......can people please please realise that just because you were developed at a certain club when you were younger IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM indicates that you will therefore make the grade at that level in the future...it's the most ridiculous argument i've heard (and keeps getting spouted on here). if it WERE true then Man Utd. would have about 3,500 players to choose from when they pick their 25 man squad. as has been pointed out on several occasions beforehand, Ryan initially came into the squad for no reason whatsoever other than necessity due to injuries.....with Smalling only just back and Jones still not 100% that's why he was again chosen for the Sweden game. well done for getting the call up but the simple fact is that he was off the pace (regardless of when he came on, if people on here were right about Ryan's overwhelming quality and him being the best centre half since the dawn of time then you would have expected him, or in fact, ANY Premiership centre back to not just simply let his man run past him and not even notice) from the word go and was hopeless for the equalising goal...that was nothing to do with not warming up or not getting into the tempo of the game, he was badly caught ball watching and failed to see one of the best goalscorers in europe steal three yeards on him. he's a quality player for us and the way in which we play but won't feature for England under Hodgson because of the way Woy wants to play. for us, brilliant...for England, not yet I never said coming from Man Utd makes him good enough. I said coming from Man Utd means he hasn't spent his whole career hoofing the ball from the back therefore is capable of passing it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 12:18:36 GMT
but how many years ago was that? and therefore how many years since has he spent "Developing" his passing ability?
personally i think he probably CAN pass for what it's worth but the simple fact remains that if he DOESN'T use this ability week in week out then it's irrelevant because an England manager will base his choices on what he sees in reality and NOT what he presumes/guesses at based on who he played for 6 years ago
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Post by rorymscfc on Nov 19, 2012 12:31:37 GMT
It seems bizarre to me that there seems to be more emphasis on defenders being able to "play football"as opposed to actually being able to defend. Phil Jones is a classic case in point
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Post by frasier99 on Nov 19, 2012 12:32:44 GMT
I hate to say it but, he was never england material, regardless of his recent poor first england performance.
im actually glad .... i dont want his mind poisoned by team England
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Post by superjonnywalters on Nov 19, 2012 12:33:06 GMT
It seems bizarre to me that there seems to be more emphasis on defenders being able to "play football"as opposed to actually being able to defend. Phil Jones is a classic case in point
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Post by Godo on Nov 19, 2012 12:46:43 GMT
When we won the world cup it was with the class of Bobby Moore and the steel of Jackie Charlton. 46 years ago I know but still holds true I think that you need a blend of both qualities in midfeild and at the back. As an out and out defender Ryan is as good as any of the alternatives in the "Jackie Charlton" role. I don't see why he couldn't be partnered by someone who was more comfortable in possession. Then Ryan could make up for any defensive shortcomings on their part. Some of the best recent centre backs e.g. Cannavaro weren't that silky on the ball and that's from a nation that has been playing the possession football that we have been aspiring to for decades.
Playing at centre back you need to bed yourself and coming on for last 20 minutes alongside a rag tag team did Ryan no favours. Surely a team is alll about balance and you certainly do need to be able to keep the ball but you also need to concentrate and defend when the opposition has the ball. Who gets more practice at concentrating whilst the opposition have the ball than Ryan???
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 12:46:47 GMT
It seems bizarre to me that there seems to be more emphasis on defenders being able to "play football"as opposed to actually being able to defend. Phil Jones is a classic case in point seperated at birth?
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