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Post by tazi on Nov 15, 2012 21:35:41 GMT
It's all a bit silly to let the disappointment with Ryan's debut to spill over into slating other players isn't it? Cahill is top drawer by any measure and to be fair is currently far more an international central defender than Ryan. I wouldn't particularly swap them at Stoke but in terms of playing international football Ryan has plenty of elements in his game that require working on. I'm a huge fan of Shawcross but its fairly obvious where his current limitations lie for that level of football. Your first sentence of your post lost any credibility 'if it ever had any anyway' because Cahill and those other to55ers were getting slated way before Ryan came on and quite rightly too. As for Cahill being a good player.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by stokie25 on Nov 15, 2012 21:41:31 GMT
People are being far too precious about Ryan. He's the fucking dogs bollocks as far as we are concerned.....but it ends there. The very fact he was selected for less than 20 minutes makes me swell with pride. It wasn't the prettiest debut i've ever seen, but then i watch him live week in, week out, so i know he's susceptible to the odd clanger. He's still a contender despite the result as much as he was as a contender when Capello selected him the day Ramsey's leg broke playing football. It's all relative
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Nov 15, 2012 22:08:13 GMT
It's all a bit silly to let the disappointment with Ryan's debut to spill over into slating other players isn't it? Cahill is top drawer by any measure and to be fair is currently far more an international central defender than Ryan. I wouldn't particularly swap them at Stoke but in terms of playing international football Ryan has plenty of elements in his game that require working on. I'm a huge fan of Shawcross but its fairly obvious where his current limitations lie for that level of football. Your first sentence of your post lost any credibility 'if it ever had any anyway' because Cahill and those other to55ers were getting slated way before Ryan came on and quite rightly too. As for Cahill being a good player.... ;D ;D ;D ;D I have to ask although I know I shouldn't. What is wrong with the first sentence? Are people not dissapointed for the lad that it didn't go as well as it could? I am.
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Post by forwardpass on Nov 15, 2012 23:09:16 GMT
I like Ryan but If he was that good why as Sir AF not come back for him?
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Post by Championship Potter on Nov 15, 2012 23:20:11 GMT
I like Ryan but If he was that good why as Sir AF not come back for him? Do you not think Fergie would look a bit red faced shelling out £20m for a player that he had deemed to be not good enough a few years previously?
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Post by tazi on Nov 15, 2012 23:57:11 GMT
I just dont believe i was reading that because Ryan wasn't that good that that was the reason for slating other players. In all fairness Cahill was wank and was quite rightly getting a slating a long long time before Ryan came on for all of 17 minutes.
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Post by madnellie on Nov 16, 2012 3:44:56 GMT
People are being far too precious about Ryan. He's the fucking dogs bollocks as far as we are concerned.....but it ends there. The very fact he was selected for less than 20 minutes makes me swell with pride. It wasn't the prettiest debut i've ever seen, but then i watch him live week in, week out, so i know he's susceptible to the odd clanger. He's still a contender despite the result as much as he was as a contender when Capello selected him the day Ramsey's leg broke playing football. It's all relative Well said!
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Post by stokie197 on Nov 16, 2012 5:43:29 GMT
i was at the game on wednesday night and i felt sorry for ryan as cahill left him very exposed and right in the shop window yes he was at fault for the second goal but thats just football and its a step up for our boy but he should have been on from the start anyone who plays football knows how hard it is to get up to the pace of a game when coming on as a sub. this is no excuse but i watched ryan and when they swapped ( the 2 swedish forwards cahill left ryan in the open witch laft slatan with loads of space and he was in so i wouldnt soley blame our boy. i was watching ryan at the end of the game and he was really gutted as he walked off i felt for him but hes a leader now and will become better for it.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 16, 2012 9:50:34 GMT
Look, Ryan ain't going get the England team just face it. Unless he signs for Man Utd or a big 4, he hasn't got a chance. Cahill is special... He plays for Chelsea.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2012 2:10:05 GMT
Cahill is a terrible defender. It has nothing to do with Shawcross and it's something anyone with eyes could see at Bolton. The bloke is scared of the ball for crying out loud. His back might as well have a target on the back, the amount of times he turns it on the ball as it's hurtling towards him. I honestly think he's in the Danny Collins echelon of piss poor defending. I just don't trust him at all to defend.
None of the centre halves impressed me on Wednesday. Cahill was wandering all over the place and didn't have a clue where to stand, where to move to or what to do in general. Caulker was obviously nervous and Ibra pulled him around. And Ryan made a calamitous error and then recovered quite well considering I thought. All three were poor, all three were given the run around, all three didn't play well in the slightest imo. The only defender who played and wasn't at fault for a goal during the game was Baines.
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Post by StokeyMan on Nov 17, 2012 2:26:41 GMT
Cahill just isn't a defender, you could see it at Bolton, and now at Chelsea. He wants to be a striker and wants to score goals, but he's stuck in defence where he just doesn't know what to do.
His distribution and positional play seem decent, but his total lack of defensive knowledge is a shambles. The only reason he's selected for England, and Chelsea for that matter is that he can pass, making him a media-favourite so we can emulate Spain.
We, as a football nation, have completely abandoned the idea of defence to copy an expansive approach that requires you to retain possession. Considering we struggle to retain possession, surely we should stock up on defenders who can actually defend (For example; Lescott, Jagielka, Caulker, Shawcross - maybe Jagielka and Lescott are too old?)
Phil Jones is another who wants the glory of goalscoring, and doesn't breathe confidence in defence. Ryan should be bled into the team, along with Caulker, and it should have happened a year ago (with Ryan atleast, Caulker is being integrated at the right time).
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2012 2:31:47 GMT
Cahill just isn't a defender, you could see it at Bolton, and now at Chelsea. He wants to be a striker and wants to score goals, but he's stuck in defence where he just doesn't know what to do. His distribution and positional play seem decent, but his total lack of defensive knowledge is a shambles. The only reason he's selected for England, and Chelsea for that matter is that he can pass, making him a media-favourite so we can emulate Spain. We, as a football nation, have completely abandoned the idea of defence to copy an expansive approach that requires you to retain possession. Considering we struggle to retain possession, surely we should stock up on defenders who can actually defend (For example; Lescott, Jagielka, Caulker, Shawcross - maybe Jagielka and Lescott are too old?) Phil Jones is another who wants the glory of goalscoring, and doesn't breathe confidence in defence. Ryan should be bled into the team, along with Caulker, and it should have happened a year ago (with Ryan atleast, Caulker is being integrated at the right time). Spot on (although Cahill's positional play scares me! ;D ). He's like a kid, You want the fooker to defend but all he wants to do is score goals, so You either have to force them to defend or play the fat kid at the back. Jones for my liking is a defensive/box to box midfielder, he gets stuck in, can pass, can run with the ball and has good energy to get up and down and link play. A Schweinsteiger type but not as good. He's not a centre back, his positioning is poor and he has too many bad habits, one being letting the ball bounce in dangerous areas.
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Post by StokeyMan on Nov 17, 2012 2:41:57 GMT
Ha, yeah Jones really is, and I actually liked him in that position when SAF played him in a similar place.
If we're really dead set on having a ball-playing centre half, then perhaps we should follow SAF, and try Carrick at the back (PROVIDED IT IS WITH A STRONG CENTRE HALF, AND NOT CAHILL!)
Having said that, I still don't see the problem with playing two solid defenders at the back, and perhaps a deep-lying midfielder to collect the ball from them? Shawcross would excel there alongside Caulker I'm convinced, provided he got a few games to build his confidence against a more moderate opponent (Ibrahimovic being the excellent...)
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2012 2:46:52 GMT
Whenever I've seen Carrick at the back he's done well in the sense he's a central midfielder and is playing at centre back but other than that I'd want him no where the back and he's not getting any younger.
Ball playing centre halves don't interest me unless they can defend, I know that's not in fashion but hey I like defenders who defend and not play a pretty pass or score goals. Hell, I'm greedy and think most centre back nowadays should be able to do most of that anyway!
I think Shawcross and Caulker would be an excellent partnership in time too. But Smalling is more likely to get a game. Another one I don't think is better than Ryan.
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Post by StokeyMan on Nov 17, 2012 3:00:25 GMT
Yep, form over substance nowadays. And wow, I didn't realise Carrick was over 30 to be fair! To me, Shawcross is good enough to get in any team in the Premier League on actual defensive terms, rather than 'the other necessities'.
Man City - haven't seen much of Nastasic, Richards injured and Lescott good but struggling for first team, so I'd go for Kompany and Shawcross.
Man Utd - Ferdinand is past it, Vidic is out long term and Evans has never impressed me, so I'd go for Smalling/Ferdinand and Shawcross
Chelsea - David Luiz and Cahill aren't defenders. John Terry is a fantastic defender even if he is getting slower, and Ivanovic is brilliant there but has been filling in right back from what I've seen. Terry and Shawcross.
Tottenham - Kaboul has been very good, Vertonghen good, and Caulker good. Most challenging team perhaps for him to get in? I'd still go for Kaboul and Shawcross though, with Vertonghen on the left.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2012 3:19:49 GMT
I'd agree with that on the whole. Even someone like Kompany is having some what of a nightmare this season though, he just looks like he's forgotten how to defend.
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