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Post by tijuanabrass on Jun 2, 2012 6:46:21 GMT
www.time.com/time/covers/pacific/0,16641,20120611,00.html I haven't read the article but that cover is a great indictment of the job the F.A have been doing for the last 45 years.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 2, 2012 6:47:55 GMT
Not showing up here. What is it??
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 2, 2012 6:53:33 GMT
The Time Magazine cover has a picture of Rooney under the headline THE TRAGEDY OF ENGLISH FOOTBALL
THE SAD SAGA OF THE WORLDS MOST DISAPPOINTING TEAM |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 2, 2012 7:01:36 GMT
Bit melodramatic. Disappointing is dependent on what you expect. You can't just blame the FA for the fact England don't win tournaments. There are loads of factors involved.
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jun 2, 2012 7:55:23 GMT
Some factors affecting the success of the national team would be : the manager, the resources and infrastructure of the governing body, the skill-set of the available players, the relative quality of the opposition.
While it's popular to blame either the national press or the wild expectations of a deluded public these would surely have a lesser influence on the outcome of matches.
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Post by harryburrows on Jun 2, 2012 8:21:37 GMT
Must be a slow news week
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Jun 2, 2012 8:32:19 GMT
The FA are corrupt cunts that only employ yes men. I really don't care a fuck about the England team any more. Just a bunch of over paid tossers with very little pride for the shirt or the country. The only interest I will be showing for the Euros is watching the ROI games. Other than that it will just be a passing interest.
Love my country but hate all that the FA have done to the national team. That is just the tip of the iceberg of how the tossers have fucked up the game/cups.
WANKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right feel a bit better now. Time to take the kids to Hoo farm. ;D
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Post by dozintheseventees on Jun 2, 2012 8:33:02 GMT
It's easy to look at the game in England today and find convenient excuses for why the England team have so regularly been disappointing. The factors are obvious such as the influx of foreign players into the English League, the way our domestic game is structured, the emphasis on club success over national considerations etc, etc. That, however, dismisses the lengthy years where there was no great influx of foreign players and we had far more English players playing in the top division. Our domestic game was much more competative in terms of the number of good clubs fighting for top honours. We pretty much dominated European club football for many years and yet we were still 'relatively' disappointing on the international front (with very few exceptions). Some will argue that our domestic product has never been good enough on a 'World Stage' but I'd have to then ask why we have been able to regularly beat the 'cream of Europe' at club level (with largely English players) and yet other EUROPEAN nations like Germany, Italy and Holland have produced far better National sides (on the whole). All of those nations have also had to 'contend' with high numbers of foreign players in their domestic game and we have (as a nation) actually won less than Greece and Denmark in the past few decades. I'm well aware of the prevailing factors that impact on our current ability to win major tournaments at International level but, whichever way you look at it, England have been massively disappointing on the International stage for a very long time. People talk about 'unrealistic' expectations but why would we expect any less of our nation than Germany, Holland, Italy or Spain given the strength of our domestic game? Oh and please don't start again about 'quality coaching' in this country because it makes me scream. Our kids are so OVER coached it's untrue. Any natural flair or adventurous tendency to dribble is battered out of them at an early age. Far from there being too few 'qualified' coaches in England, I'd like to build a bloody great bonfire to burn those we DO have, along with all the coaching manuals that they hold so dear.
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jun 2, 2012 8:55:56 GMT
Without trying to invoke a nationalism/patriotism debate I do suspect that that few of the players selected to represent the nation of England really care that much about "doing it for the country." I don't mean specifically that the lads of Jamaican, Irish, Scottish, Equine origin aren't "English enough." Instead much like many on this messageboard, the players' club-allegiance outweighs any sense of national pride they possess.
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Jun 2, 2012 9:09:55 GMT
A bit of a strange decision to choose Rooney on the cover considering he has a pretty good record for England and is BY FAR our best attack minded player.
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Post by foster on Jun 2, 2012 9:20:56 GMT
Rooneys under achieved for England whenever it's come to the big tournaments.
He's also the most recognisable player so it makes sense to use him on the cover.
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Post by aligator on Jun 2, 2012 9:31:11 GMT
Lots of factors involved. Could they have to much money already? and a cash incentive doesn't work. I know the incentive should be just be being able to play for Eng-a-lund, or for whichever country you come from. I hope we see a lot more passion from our team this Summer too.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Jun 2, 2012 9:34:38 GMT
I think one of the posters hit the nail on the head as what may be the reasoning behind the national side failing (from an impassioned "outsider's" point of view! I believe England's main issue is the control and emphasis that the "club" has over the country! Teams like Man Utd, Chelsea etc have too much sway over players and what is the best for them.... Not for England! In Germany, Bayern are a massive commodity, with obvious sway over the domestic game (we constantly have the FCB trio of Der Kaiser, Rumminegge and Riedle commenting on what is best for Bundesliga teams domestically and abroad.... Especially when Bayern have had a bad season) however, the national team IS the number one priority! The mindset is that success on the national front breeds success within the domestic. All teams are geared to supporting the national team, even the mighty Bayern, and the media support the team the "right" way and within expectations (A recent defeat against Switzerland for the first time ever in Bern was not met with derision but with understanding that it was a "warm up" for the big event and that different formations were being tested and confirmed with the final squad).
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Jun 2, 2012 9:34:59 GMT
Rooneys under achieved for England whenever it's come to the big tournaments. He's also the most recognisable player so it makes sense to use him on the cover. Yeah he's under achieved by his own high standards but there are A LOT of players who've been worse for England than Rooney has. But I guess you're right. It just somewhat irks me that they seemingly label Rooney as the reason behind England's disappointing decade (I know that's not the case, but when you stick 1 guy at the forefront of your cover..) when there are a whole host of players who've under-performed a lot more than Rooney has. |
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Post by dadofsam on Jun 2, 2012 9:53:52 GMT
It's all Murdoch's fault, no it really is.
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Post by Godo on Jun 2, 2012 10:13:58 GMT
England have only won one major tournament and that was 45+years ago. From what I recall since the Ramsey era we have only really looked a team that looked capable of competing at the top level under Robson and Venables.
The problem isn't really the FA - although they ARE overpaid useless wankers - but rather the Premiership. The overhyped over rich league does not have the restrictions in place that they in France, Spain or Italy to ensure that national players have to be in the Premiership squads and playing. So you can have a situation whereby some of our better players are employed at clubs like Chelsea or Man City but hardly ever play. Our best player Rooney has NEVER delivered in a major european final for club or country and neither have players like Terry. We have no one who can take a major game by the scruff of the neck in a way that a Zidane, Cruyff, Platini or Maradonna could. The closest we have gotten in recent years to looking like a national team that could compete at the top level is when we had effective partnerships such as Sherringham and Sheron or Beardsley and Lineker.
We also have a stupid football culture in this country ( this board proves that as much as any ). Junior leagues are played on too big pitches and it's all about results, safety first and kick and rush rather than developing skills and ball retention. Youth players are signed up as a result of the measure of their potential height rather than their future skill level. There is very little focus on the understanding of creating space by movement off the ball, or the development of pass and move type football. Chelsea aside this season ( and there has been Greece in the past ) the major competitions have always been won by teams who can play the best football. The football press in this country is an extension of the gutter media, being more concerned about scoops around transfers, which non-entity celebrity is shagging which thick footballer or training ground bust ups rather than actually promoting a proper understanding of what constitues top level football.
In this country the most frequent call from the terraces is probably "get stuck in", and there is restlessness if a team retains possession rather than getting the ball forward. Don't get me wrong I was an "old fashioned" centre half, could put my foot in and tackle and I appreciate the importance of having players who can dive in and block shots but the players I admire the most are those who can do things that I could never do, never had the ability or imagination to do, and there are very few English ones who fit that category. Where are the Gascoignes, Hoddles, Hudsons or Currys? The fantasy and creativity in the Premiership is nearly always from a non English player ( there are rare exceptions such as Crouch's goal against Citeh!)
So actually perhaps the problem lies more with YOU and what you accept as football, what you shout at your kids at Ladsndads and your reliance on your Sky box rather than the FA.
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Post by foster on Jun 2, 2012 11:10:15 GMT
It's all Murdoch's fault, no it really is. Surely Kitson has to take some of the blame? |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 2, 2012 11:13:41 GMT
The nature of English football does not create international success. That is everything about it. Including us the fans.
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Post by dozintheseventees on Jun 2, 2012 11:22:34 GMT
The nature of English football does not create international success. That is everything about it. Including us the fans. I pretty much agree joe but that still leaves me pondering on why we can (and have) dominated European Club Football for lengthy periods (even when most of our club players were British) and yet the OTHER EUROPEAN nations have managed to be better international sides than us on the whole. Why are we often better than them at club level but much worse at International level when the same players have been involved in both competitions for all European Nations? It doesn't make any logical sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2012 12:13:43 GMT
Id say the biggest factor was the manager as again I see England go for a soppy safe guy rather than a hard man who can mould the bunch of pre madonnas into a team.
Comes back to the singing the anthem debate , they turn up for the money and are the most disjointed team Ive ever seen while at club level they play for each other as it should be.
Lets call it Pennants disease where they think the world and its dog should be gratefull they even bothered to turn , cant think of a better example of a player who could be nailed on an England team sheet with the right foot up his arse.
So the next England manager needs to be a BIGGER personality than the pre madonnas that play for us not a meek little squeeky bloke.
Still praying that England win though, ther's always a prayer.
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Post by sage on Jun 2, 2012 12:59:13 GMT
Id say the biggest factor was the manager as again I see England go for a soppy safe guy rather than a hard man who can mould the bunch of pre madonnas into a team. Comes back to the singing the anthem debate , they turn up for the money and are the most disjointed team Ive ever seen while at club level they play for each other as it should be. Lets call it Pennants disease where they think the world and its dog should be gratefull they even bothered to turn , cant think of a better example of a player who could be nailed on an England team sheet with the right foot up his arse. So the next England manager needs to be a BIGGER personality than the pre madonnas that play for us not a meek little squeeky bloke. Still praying that England win though, ther's always a prayer. 'pre madonnas' ;D |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 2, 2012 13:32:58 GMT
Because when players play for their clubs they are practised at it and don't have to be flexible like you do at international level. English players aren't very flexible.
English sides dominated Europe with superior fitness and stamina. During the ban 85-90 continental sides had got fitter and stronger so that advantage was nullified.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Jun 2, 2012 13:51:34 GMT
I'm not sure it is simply based on flexibility of the players. The stance that Germany have is that the clubs play the same system throughout every stage of their player's development. That is to say that the U11 will play exactly the same system as the 1st team, however their core skills and development will be based on what their individual requirements are. This is so that as a player progresses onto the next age group / seniority it is easier for them to settle and already have an understanding of the formation and tactics required. Of course there will be slight changes as the game develops technically however the system is still the same. The same is for the national side, wheras there is a lot of development and discussion between the DFB and the Bundesliga clubs in terms players. Furthermore you will always see early potential nurtured and the same core group of players will always come through each age group from junior to senior international so they already have an understanding both of the team tactics and of each other. Looking at England, how many U21s, let alone U18s etc actually make it through to the senior squad and realise their potential, and also an individual may make it, but not a group of players who truely understand how each other play. This is why you will see Joachim Low working with the juniors (including coaches) between major competion periods to ensure that all areas are working together for the common good.... the success of the national side.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 2, 2012 17:36:07 GMT
German players are fully in tune with what's required though. English player sort of are but seem to lack the ability to put it into use during games.
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Post by tijuanabrass on Jun 3, 2012 0:46:51 GMT
German players are fully in tune with what's required though. English player sort of are but seem to lack the ability to put it into use during games. But in reality, it is not genetics that create that attitude. It's nurture and the environment created by the German Footballing body. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 3, 2012 5:13:48 GMT
Agree Tijuana. Remember though players playing strategic controlled methodical football wouldn't be rated as English football wants different things. Things whch don't equate to international success.
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