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Post by wuzza on Apr 7, 2012 11:16:18 GMT
Dont think you are right with the english examples RAF - as for abroad I will totally admit I dont have a clue how it works there and how succesful it is - but from the examples you quote it looks like the nation's major clubs attract all the best young players so its not exactly a work of genius on their parts.
The acadamy isnt a bad thing and glory be if it works now and then BUT as the manager rightly pointed out it simply isnt the thing that is going to be fundamental to the future succes of our club.
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Post by padders01 on Apr 7, 2012 11:23:52 GMT
I didnt realise there were so many experts on here. Well done to those oatie posters that know eyerything. Now take a bow. Not sure anyone has done that! However, we are all Stoke fans and we are entitled to guess whats going on. It's a message board, that's what happens on a message board
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 11:28:35 GMT
Dont think you are right with the english examples RAF - as for abroad I will totally admit I dont have a clue how it works there and how succesful it is - but from the examples you quote it looks like the nation's major clubs attract all the best young players so its not exactly a work of genius on their parts. The acadamy isnt a bad thing and glory be if it works now and then BUT as the manager rightly pointed out it simply isnt the thing that is going to be fundamental to the future succes of our club. Well it's a good job our Chairman thinks differently then. H
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 11:30:32 GMT
Good post spuddy. If you turn out to be right and Pulis starts to use youth players in a few years, then posters on this thread that are saying "he will never..." will just say he's been forced to and think they were right all along. There is a special form of being right on the oatcake that is suspiciously like being wrong in the real world. By the time Coates's investment starts baring any fruit from the academy Pulis will be long gone. It's along term project, which Pulis has no interest in. H
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Post by padders01 on Apr 7, 2012 11:37:11 GMT
I think most are missing the point here. PC is the Chairman, and the Chairman of the company (particularly in PC's financial position) owns the overall strategy and direction. His managers, such as TP, are tasked with delivering the strategy day-to-day. The very fact that PC has made a public statement regarding the academy says one of two things. Either PC wants a public and clearly defined split in core strategy, where the academy becomes a separate business unit (for want of a better phrase) and he is showing public support and commitment to that new business unit. Or, he is firing a shot across TP's bow publically following the failure of internal, private pressure to get him to manage the academy more effectively. Knowing a little of how these things operate and looking at past PC strategy (and knowing a little of the qualities of the man) I cannot for a minute believe that PC would risk or want a public row with TP on any subject. Therefore, my conclusions are that PC wants a strategy that is split between academy and core business, i.e Premiership Football, and he sees TP's role as looking after the 1st team and not having hands on involvement with the academy going forward. After all, it's not TP's strong point to nurture youth. I expect to see more movement at a management level in the academy and more investment in it, along with continued investment in the first team. I believe TP will continue to do what he does to keep us in the Premiership until such time as the academy strategy begins to bring through real quality (not Ben Marshall, but real quality) and then PC has a decision to make. His decision then (and it may be 5-7 years down the line) is do I continue with the two stream strategy i.e academy and Premiership separately, or do I know combine them into one? If they are combined, I do not see TP keeping his job, unless he can demonstrate the ability to use organic resources i.e youth progressing through the ranks, which he does not have a good track record of, or so it seems. If however they are kept separately, I cannot see TP working in partnership with another manager for the youth set-up to encourage youngsters into the first team, as he simply does not have the track record to show that he can do this. Then PC may have a management problem if his management team cannot deliver his overall strategy, and something will have to give...probably TP would have to go at that point, as PC has clearly demonstrated that he wants an organic, academy lead business. Therefore, there is only an upside to this situation; we will develop a great academy and continue to focus on premiership survival, and when the time is right we will bring through our own first team players whether this is with TP or not. If I was TP, I would be reconsidering my belief in youth over the next 2-3 years, or I would be giving my Stoke career as manager a 3-5 year window at most. Real and fundamental change is underway, and the next few years will see a major shift in SCFC as a business model. IMHO ;D One of the best posts I've ever read on here
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Post by padders01 on Apr 7, 2012 11:39:43 GMT
Good post spuddy. If you turn out to be right and Pulis starts to use youth players in a few years, then posters on this thread that are saying "he will never..." will just say he's been forced to and think they were right all along. There is a special form of being right on the oatcake that is suspiciously like being wrong in the real world. By the time Coates's investment starts baring any fruit from the academy Pulis will be long gone. It's along term project, which Pulis has no interest in. H Agreed, but does that mean less money to spend on players while he is still in charge? I think this is one of the best threads on this board for a long time. Some great posts, view points and ideas but above all no slagging each other off
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Post by wuzza on Apr 7, 2012 12:05:10 GMT
I genuinely hope then RAF that you and others wont be at the chairmans throat if and when we do produce a high quality player we go on to sell him at the highest price we can possibly muster ! Because the truth be told that is what will happen - and it will be a major part of the club's motivation in investing this money. I'm not saying its wrong but Ive been around long enough to see what the reaction is everytime a good player moves on.
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 12:12:13 GMT
By the time Coates's investment starts baring any fruit from the academy Pulis will be long gone. It's along term project, which Pulis has no interest in. H Agreed, but does that mean less money to spend on players while he is still in charge? I think this is one of the best threads on this board for a long time. Some great posts, view points and ideas but above all no slagging each other off Why would it Padders? It's £6 Mill, not £60 Mill. Pulis has wasted alot more than that in duff players and wages and PC hasn't punished him by cutting off his money before, so why would he now? H
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Post by ColonelMustard on Apr 7, 2012 12:12:25 GMT
By the time Coates's investment starts baring any fruit from the academy Pulis will be long gone. It's along term project, which Pulis has no interest in. H Agreed, but does that mean less money to spend on players while he is still in charge? I think this is one of the best threads on this board for a long time. Some great posts, view points and ideas but above all no slagging each other off Agree padders, there has been some good threads recently. We are at an interesting point in our development. Lots of questions. RAF, you are probably right and in that case Im glad the manager is drawing attention to the current playing staff.
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 12:14:54 GMT
I genuinely hope then RAF that you and others wont be at the chairmans throat if and when we do produce a high quality player we go on to sell him at the highest price we can possibly muster ! Because the truth be told that is what will happen - and it will be a major part of the club's motivation in investing this money. I'm not saying its wrong but Ive been around long enough to see what the reaction is everytime a good player moves on. It all depends where we are at the time these players come to fruition Wuzza. Obviously if bigger teams come in we have to sell for the big money, but we shouldn't be selling if we don't really need to. H
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Post by padders01 on Apr 7, 2012 12:19:19 GMT
Agreed, but does that mean less money to spend on players while he is still in charge? I think this is one of the best threads on this board for a long time. Some great posts, view points and ideas but above all no slagging each other off Why would it Padders? It's £6 Mill, not £60 Mill. Pulis has wasted alot more than that in duff players and wages and PC hasn't punished him by cutting off his money before, so why would he now? H The last window was the only one we haven't spent any money
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Post by RAF on Apr 7, 2012 12:22:30 GMT
Why would it Padders? It's £6 Mill, not £60 Mill. Pulis has wasted alot more than that in duff players and wages and PC hasn't punished him by cutting off his money before, so why would he now? H The last window was the only one we haven't spent any money I put that down to the type of player TP wants were not attainable at the time. If he is in fact interested in Jarvis, there is no way Wolves would have let him go then. H
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Post by padders01 on Apr 7, 2012 12:35:02 GMT
Yes you maybe you are right
We can't keep sustaining by 28+ yr old players. Well we can but PC isn't going to keep doing that is he?
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Post by march4 on Apr 7, 2012 12:56:42 GMT
Yes you maybe you are right We can't keep sustaining by 28+ yr old players. Well we can but PC isn't going to keep doing that is he? The money PC is putting in is loose change to him. His wealth is increasing by £200M a year. The next Times List will put him in the Billionaire category. If TP wanted Balloteli and Tevez, PC would try to make it happen.
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Post by luke2u on Apr 7, 2012 13:32:07 GMT
The only way this club can progress from where we are now, is without Tony Pulis.
With him, there will be no change. No new young players, but plenty of old expensive players being bought.
The only youngster TP ever has believed in, is his own son. For how many years did he keep him? TP is always talking about not wasting the money of Coates' family, but in the long run, I think it's just what he does.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Apr 7, 2012 13:39:36 GMT
The only way this club can progress from where we are now, is without Tony Pulis. With him, there will be no change. No new young players, but plenty of old expensive players being bought. The only youngster TP ever has believed in, is his own son. For how many years did he keep him? TP is always talking about not wasting the money of Coates' family, but in the long run, I think it's just what he does. Probly. And the chairman and captain probly agree too.
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Post by march4 on Apr 7, 2012 13:44:20 GMT
The only way this club can progress from where we are now, is without Tony Pulis. With him, there will be no change. No new young players, but plenty of old expensive players being bought. The only youngster TP ever has believed in, is his own son. For how many years did he keep him? TP is always talking about not wasting the money of Coates' family, but in the long run, I think it's just what he does. Oh dear!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 13:54:35 GMT
It's all a (small) fuss about not (very) much.
£6m is chump change, it only just about buys a Dave Kitson
Even if the (Evil) Master Plan does (eventually) work, it'll be like 2022 before it starts getting anywhere near the first team. Dear Old Tony will have long retired to Bournemouth, to waste his millions on setting up a baseball-cap museum & gift shop.
It's just (some of) the owd man's legacy. Stuff his lad can push him around, in a wheelchair, when he's 103 and dribbling into his tea. Rather than getting out the Panini stiker album to remind him of the £6m that went up in smoke on Dave.
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Post by fca47 on Apr 7, 2012 19:39:23 GMT
Was told today, that Stoke will be making 12 million available this Summer but the Academy money, 6 million will come out of that. But we should be able to raise about 8 million from shipping people out. The meeting between TP and PC is this next week to decide who is going.
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Post by Stoke70 on Apr 7, 2012 19:44:20 GMT
Was told today, that Stoke will be making 12 million available this Summer but the Academy money, 6 million will come out of that. But we should be able to raise about 8 million from shipping people out. The meeting between TP and PC is this next week to decide who is going. source ?
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Post by french toast on Apr 7, 2012 19:55:25 GMT
Was told today, that Stoke will be making 12 million available this Summer but the Academy money, 6 million will come out of that. But we should be able to raise about 8 million from shipping people out. The meeting between TP and PC is this next week to decide who is going. source ? His aris?
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Apr 7, 2012 22:06:31 GMT
This thread is straw-clutching at its worst by some of the usual suspects but as a final thought from me - how many Premier League clubs live and die on how succesful their Academy is ?? Its a nice idea in principle but frankly its always going to be on the periphery of events at first team level (Middlesbro had a great youth system and then .......) This translated means you haven't got anything to contribute. Boro by the way would be out of business without their Academy.
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Post by Pugsley on Apr 7, 2012 22:10:05 GMT
Yes you maybe you are right We can't keep sustaining by 28+ yr old players. Well we can but PC isn't going to keep doing that is he? The money PC is putting in is loose change to him. His wealth is increasing by £200M a year. The next Times List will put him in the Billionaire category. If TP wanted Balloteli and Tevez, PC would try to make it happen. To coin a phrase.... Oh Dear
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Post by knowingeye on Apr 8, 2012 9:24:06 GMT
I've seriously got much more important things to worry about the Stoke City's Academy right now, but ten years or so of watching many, many Academy and SOE games across Europe and in the UK, I've seen many clubs building up expectations of loads of people, fans, players and coaches etc, whilst wasting the talent of local youth is simply unforgivable. Of course it's true that not all potential players have the total package including skill, determination and luck to go all the way. Whilst I welcome positive news regarding new young players, I'm perhaps a little too jaded and more doubtful than ever because of that history, to be anything other than taking a reserved position on today's events. If Peter Coates wants to keep funding the Academy but not producing young local players for the club, then only he can make that choice, as that is the "Pulis-effect" in reality at Stoke City. Success for Academies or Centres of Excellence has to be measured by meeting expectations of why they are established in the first place. According to the FA the purpose of Academies is to identify players of outstanding ability and place them in a technical and educational programme designed to produce football excellence in conjunction with personal development. Many fans of clubs look and wonder where their success is coming from. One Michael Owen for Liverpool had seen them recoup all of their Academy investment but then add Gerrard and Carragher to the list and their return is obvious. Man Utd's Academy success is there for all to see in terms of returns on investment and expectations, as is Crewe's once famous Academy. Then we look at Stoke City's Academy and the desire of Peter Coates to put it firmly in the Premier league of Academies. How will success be measured and when will that expectation deliver with Tony Pulis actively blocking youth progress? Pulis has never favoured youth. I said it when he came back to Stoke and despite his fantastic praiseworthy efforts producing results for the first team, his record with youth is unquestionably poor. With regards to the investment announcement "Pulis said new Academy facilities at the club's Clayton Wood training complex should give Stoke rich pickings among the region's best young talent."So what's local talent? Stoke City could look to model its future progress on something like Athletic Club, (Athletic Bilbao) is known for its "local-only" policy of bringing young Basque players through the ranks, involving the youth academy and feeder clubs, as well as recruiting top Basque players from other clubs. Athletic's official policy is signing professional players native to the greater Basque Country, including Biscay, Guipúzcoa, Álava and Navarre and Labourd, Soule and Lower Navarre. The club has been praised for promoting home-grown players and club loyalty, with one of the main beneficiaries of the canteras policy being the national Spanish team. It makes me seriously wonder why English (and Scottish) clubs need such a foreign contingent of players to succeed. This is what is all wrong at many clubs nowadays overlooking local talent in favour of the foreign imports. It's nothing personal against foreign players and not racist or xenophobic, but just common sense, especially at the youth level. We wonder why at the highest level England doesn't cut it then look at how we are spurning English talent at the earlier age groups. It's contradictory to what football should be about in developing, nurturing local talented footballers, like Peter Coates has said on many occasions, to play at the highest level they can deliver the results and enjoy the game. In July 2010, the former head of youth development for the Premier League has called for a radical overhaul in the governance of English football for players below the age of 21. It's what I've said many times on this board (as many will have been bored by, no doubt ;D ) but in all honesty about blinkin' time it was sorted as the gap between youth 17/18yrs and 21yrs has not been not being addressed, generally in English football. The Dutch have introduced regional academies (like France) for training the youth players. Cripes on a bike, this is exactly what I've been banging on about and previously spoken to Peter Coates directly in terms of youth development. Holland and France operate similar systems. I've been told that, U21 players tied to a club attend regular regional academies operated under the country's football association and they train to certain agreed coaching criteria/standards and techniques ensuring that it meets with national requirements. My solution and where the Stoke City Academy fits in this plan. Working with the the FA guidelines (and therefore funding too) one of the main barriers is adherence to the status quo which has to be broken down to deliver meaningful progress. I suggest on that a six team U-21 league S/E, S/W, E/M, W/M, N/E & N/W run by the FA for English only players for all league players that qualify, playing each other twice (H&A) then regional play-offs to a final. Keep them training under FA guidelines and given alternative route to shine. Stoke City has the pick of local talent and influences regional development (as a leader not a follower) whilst delivering first team players to the club. Rant over!
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Post by fca47 on Apr 8, 2012 9:42:21 GMT
These idiots who say the academies don't matter. presume that the television money will be there forever. In a way this has been a period of time that is extraordinary, and not the norm. In Asia they are building up their own teams and different leagues, the Spanish may become more popular than the PL. To rely on the whims of Murdoch for the future of football is just plain stupid. We should be investing this money for the long term good of the club, and not just wasting it on overpaying a few players. The Academy is part of that long term planning. We just need to see that the money is not wasted and that it is run properly. That's why I don't think the first team manager should be dictating what happens there. It should be run as a seperate part of the club.
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Post by knowingeye on Apr 8, 2012 10:28:34 GMT
These idiots who say the academies don't matter. presume that the television money will be there forever. In a way this has been a period of time that is extraordinary, and not the norm. In Asia they are building up their own teams and different leagues, the Spanish may become more popular than the PL. To rely on the whims of Murdoch for the future of football is just plain stupid. We should be investing this money for the long term good of the club, and not just wasting it on overpaying a few players. The Academy is part of that long term planning. We just need to see that the money is not wasted and that it is run properly. That's why I don't think the first team manager should be dictating what happens there. It should be run as a seperate part of the club. 100% agreed!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 10:32:33 GMT
Cant believe this thread has lasted so long - totally based upon an incorrect interpretation / summary of what Pulis said
as I said ages ago - 'send three and fourpence - we are going to a dance'
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Post by vahl on Apr 8, 2012 10:39:54 GMT
Let's put something into perspective for a second - having an academy of this potential quality is something most teams in the world can only dream of at the moment. This academy, when complete, is going to put us on par with top teams around the world in terms of facilities. Another thing worth noting is that The FA's new National Football Centre is only down the road from us. It is a massive leap for our club and shows the reality of our progress in more ways than one. Then we get to coaching.. Where's Steve Holland when you need him? I can see someone like Gary Megson being appointed as head of our new academy
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Post by MarkWolstanton on Apr 8, 2012 11:04:31 GMT
Let's put something into perspective for a second - having an academy of this potential quality is something most teams in the world can only dream of at the moment. This academy, when complete, is going to put us on par with top teams around the world in terms of facilities. Another thing worth noting is that The FA's new National Football Centre is only down the road from us. It is a massive leap for our club and shows the reality of our progress in more ways than one. Then we get to coaching.. Where's Steve Holland when you need him? I can see someone like Gary Megson being appointed as head of our new academy This.
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Post by wuzza on Apr 8, 2012 11:08:14 GMT
Hopefully I did manage to 'contribute' something Mark but I will bow to your arrogance.
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