This withdrawn striker role..

[numpty40]

Everyone bangs on about it on here. Can anyone explain what it's all about and why we need one?

[peterthornesboots]

Basically the withdrawn striker (Walters) is supposed to act as a link between midfield and defence (debatable I know!) when we have the ball and work off the central striker (Crouch)

When we haven't got the ball he's supposed to act as a fifth midfielder to deny the opposition space to play in the middle third. If the opposition play a holding midfielder or playmaker then Walters will be the one responsible for marking him.

Do we need one? It depends on your point of view. Personally I'd prefer us to play two out-and-out strikers, (certainly at home or against weaker teams)

[bertieb]

agree ptb 442 at home we should have enough to beat a fair few teams at home playing that way.

[numpty40]

cheers peterthornesboots,
seems a bit pointless really, if a striker is a decent striker then he's wasted in that role and likewise if a midfield player is decent in midfield he's wasted as well!
Therefore the best players for this role are players like Walters and Mama, who aren't really very good strikers.
Whereas good strikers like Crouch and Jones aren't very good in the withdrawn role because they're....good strikers. However because either Crouch and Jones have no support up top with them due to their strike partners playing a withdrawn role they then look like poor strikers!
Makes a bit more sense now.
Football really is a simple game but some managers do like to complicate things.

[peterthornesboots]

Feb 5, 2012 21:12:58 GMT numpty40 said:

cheers peterthornesboots,
seems a bit pointless really, if a striker is a decent striker then he's wasted in that role and likewise if a midfield player is decent in midfield he's wasted as well!
Therefore the best players for this role are players like Walters and Mama, who aren't really very good strikers.
Whereas good strikers like Crouch and Jones aren't very good in the withdrawn role because they're....good strikers. However because either Crouch and Jones have no support up top with them due to their strike partners playing a withdrawn role they then look like poor strikers!
Makes a bit more sense now.
Football really is a simple game but some managers do like to complicate things.

I agree mate, the problem in this country is that we over-complicate what is in essence a simple game.

The formation works if the right players play (as the last four+ years have shown)

The big worry for me is that we never change our formation and don't seem to have a Plan B if Plan A isn't working!

[numpty40]

Despite my reservations, Robbie Keane looks the perfect withdrawn striker.

[Mint Berry Barks]

Attacking-wise, I've never really seen the point in us having a withdrawn striker. It's not like we pass it through the midfield for the striker to pick the ball up and play between the lines of their midfield and defense.

[mickygynsshorts]

Just an excuse for another another person to have to help out the defense

[robboleek]

To be honest I think all this withdrawn role talk came about when Shearer and Sheringham were playing it so well for England (cant remember a great deal of talk about it prior to then). Difference being is they were both world class in their positions our players are not !!

[nott1]

Don Revie was it!

[tcdobinghoff]

Is this the same thing as the "Mama" role ? The role played very well (and not been bettered yet) by Big Mama. That tactic was deployed by the defender or midfielder launching the ball forward to a point somewhere about half way inside the opposition half - Mamas role was

1. to get as near to the landing place as possible either to collect the ball and draw a foul so we had a free kick in a dangerous area
2. if relatively unchallenged flick on in the hope of giving Fuller an opening.
3. harry the heading defender so much that the clearance would fall somewhere around the halfway line to be picked up by an advancing (?) midfielder.

When not in possession then to tackle back and at free kicks/ corners Mama was a kind of huge human shield that held defenders off and created space for players like Shawcross to steal in and score.

He did all of those things very well - some people also confused the word "striker" with expecting him to score goals as well but that was expecting too much surely. Mind you as a lot of people believe in Stoke if you have a big striker who can head the ball in the middle they will get the goals with the right service.

[Stretfordpotterer]

We need it, but only because Pulis insists on having both centre midfielders in the cage regardless of the opposition, whenever the opposition go 5 in the middle we lose the midfield because our two are way too deep and the withdrawn striker gets outnumbered on his own against 3 opposition midfielders. the two in the cage then end up with players running at them, instead of being on top of the opposition hassling them further up the pitch.

To me the withdrawn striker role only works when the opposition play a quality deep lying midfielder (scholes/parker/adam) as jonny walters seems to relish that battle, all the more bizarre he didn't play that role against Uited and scholes was allowed to dictate the game completely unhindered.

[kiwistokie]

Time that we had a more traditional front 2 or 3 and a descent mid field that was allowed to play the ball forward to the center forwards or wingers, we don't seem to play in triangles or diamonds and these are the basic patterns. as they are all required to defend.
We are to easy to read in a game and the opposing teams can change their game tactics during a game a lot quicker than us.

[march4]

The role is the key to how we play. It is the fulcrum around which all of our movement revolves.

It allows us to get the ball from front to back quickly. A long diagonal ball from our full backs into our opponent's half drops short of their centre backs and allows the withdrawn striker a number of options. A good long pass and he can head it on to the lone striker or out to one of the wingers. He can hold the ball up if the wingers are slow getting up the field. If the withdrawn striker is near to the touchline he can win a throw or even a free kick. Even if he doesn't win the ball, his job is to make it difficult for our opponents to clear it cleanly, thus bringing into play our defensive midfielders who are waiting for a scuffed clearance. They then pass to the full backs and hey presto the process begins again.

When our opponents have the ball, the withdrawn striker must stop any build up play by their defenders/defensive midfielders. He is there to patrol the centre circle and harrass any opponents who have the ball there. If he can nick the ball away to our midfielders, they knock it to the full backs who hoist it forwards for the withdrawn striker to start the next attack.

It gives us a 4-4-1-1 in possession and 4-5-1 when chasing the ball.

The role is difficult for opponents to counter because their midfielders are not used to competing for long balls forwards to a big/strong player operating in the no man's land in front of their back 4. If one of their centre backs moves out of position to win the ball, then our lone striker has a one vs one with the remaining centre back if the ball runs forwards.

There are ways to counter it, but I will not give away any state secrets as only a handful of managers have worked out a successful remedy.

The withdrawn striker comes in 2 varieties; Mama position and Duracell bunny.

So far, Mama has shown himself to be one of the best in the Mama position (in spite of us spending over £20M on replacements). BT has been the best option overall.

Walters is our best Duracell bunny.

The withdrawn striker also has an important role to play when we have a setpiece. He is the one who disrupts our opponents defences. Mama was particularly effective at corralling 4 or 5 defenders and keeping them away from the ball. Look at the goals we scored from Rory's throws in our first season for some examples. Walters also acts as a block to stop defenders attacking the ball. A classic was BT at Hull who threw himself backwards into the path of 3 defenders to allow Ric the time to turn and score.

When the withdrawn striker plays well, then the team plays well.

Take away the withdrawn striker and the current team shape dissolves. It is impossible to play our football in the way we do without it.

[Pugsley]

All you need to know is that when played well its ok, when it's not it's turgid diabolical tripe that turns into hoof ball.

It's a piece of piss to coach, based on percentages i.e. 50/50.

At this moment in time my club is playing the worst brand of football seen in any top flight league for 3 decades. All for £25million in the summer.

[Jamo on the wing]

My view on this role is that it's because we don't trust our midfielders not to get the complete run around so we ask a forward to help them out.

It can and has worked but at home I don't see the necessity against teams outside of the top 5.

[Paul Spencer]

Feb 6, 2012 18:54:02 GMT march4 said:

The role is the key to how we play. It is the fulcrum around which all of our movement revolves.

It allows us to get the ball from front to back quickly. A long diagonal ball from our full backs into our opponent's half drops short of their centre backs and allows the withdrawn striker a number of options. A good long pass and he can head it on to the lone striker or out to one of the wingers. He can hold the ball up if the wingers are slow getting up the field. If the withdrawn striker is near to the touchline he can win a throw or even a free kick. Even if he doesn't win the ball, his job is to make it difficult for our opponents to clear it cleanly, thus bringing into play our defensive midfielders who are waiting for a scuffed clearance. They then pass to the full backs and hey presto the process begins again.

When our opponents have the ball, the withdrawn striker must stop any build up play by their defenders/defensive midfielders. He is there to patrol the centre circle and harrass any opponents who have the ball there. If he can nick the ball away to our midfielders, they knock it to the full backs who hoist it forwards for the withdrawn striker to start the next attack.

It gives us a 4-4-1-1 in possession and 4-5-1 when chasing the ball.

The role is difficult for opponents to counter because their midfielders are not used to competing for long balls forwards to a big/strong player operating in the no man's land in front of their back 4. If one of their centre backs moves out of position to win the ball, then our lone striker has a one vs one with the remaining centre back if the ball runs forwards.

There are ways to counter it, but I will not give away any state secrets as only a handful of managers have worked out a successful remedy.

The withdrawn striker comes in 2 varieties; Mama position and Duracell bunny.

So far, Mama has shown himself to be one of the best in the Mama position (in spite of us spending over £20M on replacements). BT has been the best option overall.

Walters is our best Duracell bunny.

The withdrawn striker also has an important role to play when we have a setpiece. He is the one who disrupts our opponents defences. Mama was particularly effective at corralling 4 or 5 defenders and keeping them away from the ball. Look at the goals we scored from Rory's throws in our first season for some examples. Walters also acts as a block to stop defenders attacking the ball. A classic was BT at Hull who threw himself backwards into the path of 3 defenders to allow Ric the time to turn and score.

When the withdrawn striker plays well, then the team plays well.

Take away the withdrawn striker and the current team shape dissolves. It is impossible to play our football in the way we do without it.

Excellent post March - I agree with every word.

I just wanted to add, that the tactic is infinitely easier to counter, when the withdrawn striker's partner doesn't have any pace.

[french toast]

Feb 6, 2012 18:59:20 GMT Pugsley said:

All you need to know is that when played well its ok, when it's not it's turgid diabolical tripe that turns into hoof ball.

It's a piece of piss to coach, based on percentages i.e. 50/50.

At this moment in time my club is playing the worst brand of football seen in any top flight league for 3 decades. All for £25million in the summer.

why arent you a top flight manager....in real life not on football manager because you are clearly a football genius

[march4]

Feb 6, 2012 19:41:49 GMT Paul Spencer said:

Feb 6, 2012 18:54:02 GMT march4 said:

The role is the key to how we play. It is the fulcrum around which all of our movement revolves.

It allows us to get the ball from front to back quickly. A long diagonal ball from our full backs into our opponent's half drops short of their centre backs and allows the withdrawn striker a number of options. A good long pass and he can head it on to the lone striker or out to one of the wingers. He can hold the ball up if the wingers are slow getting up the field. If the withdrawn striker is near to the touchline he can win a throw or even a free kick. Even if he doesn't win the ball, his job is to make it difficult for our opponents to clear it cleanly, thus bringing into play our defensive midfielders who are waiting for a scuffed clearance. They then pass to the full backs and hey presto the process begins again.

When our opponents have the ball, the withdrawn striker must stop any build up play by their defenders/defensive midfielders. He is there to patrol the centre circle and harrass any opponents who have the ball there. If he can nick the ball away to our midfielders, they knock it to the full backs who hoist it forwards for the withdrawn striker to start the next attack.

It gives us a 4-4-1-1 in possession and 4-5-1 when chasing the ball.

The role is difficult for opponents to counter because their midfielders are not used to competing for long balls forwards to a big/strong player operating in the no man's land in front of their back 4. If one of their centre backs moves out of position to win the ball, then our lone striker has a one vs one with the remaining centre back if the ball runs forwards.

There are ways to counter it, but I will not give away any state secrets as only a handful of managers have worked out a successful remedy.

The withdrawn striker comes in 2 varieties; Mama position and Duracell bunny.

So far, Mama has shown himself to be one of the best in the Mama position (in spite of us spending over £20M on replacements). BT has been the best option overall.

Walters is our best Duracell bunny.

The withdrawn striker also has an important role to play when we have a setpiece. He is the one who disrupts our opponents defences. Mama was particularly effective at corralling 4 or 5 defenders and keeping them away from the ball. Look at the goals we scored from Rory's throws in our first season for some examples. Walters also acts as a block to stop defenders attacking the ball. A classic was BT at Hull who threw himself backwards into the path of 3 defenders to allow Ric the time to turn and score.

When the withdrawn striker plays well, then the team plays well.

Take away the withdrawn striker and the current team shape dissolves. It is impossible to play our football in the way we do without it.

Excellent post March - I agree with every word.

I just wanted to add, that the tactic is infinitely easier to counter, when the withdrawn striker's partner doesn't have any pace.

You and I at least try to understand our tactics rather than simply moaning about them.

A quick, strong lone striker is a key part of our tactics as well and Ric is the best exponent we have.

[Jamo on the wing]

Feb 6, 2012 19:44:35 GMT march4 said:

Feb 6, 2012 19:41:49 GMT Paul Spencer said:

Excellent post March - I agree with every word.

I just wanted to add, that the tactic is infinitely easier to counter, when the withdrawn striker's partner doesn't have any pace.

You and I at least try to understand our tactics rather than simply moaning about them.

A quick, strong lone striker is a key part of our tactics as well and Ric is the best exponent we have.

Totally correct, march.

Ric is the key to the system working as we still have found an alternative to him.

I still think Crouch can play the more withdrawn of the two roles but needs a Ric alongside him to give him any sort of chance.

[peterthornesboots]

Feb 6, 2012 18:59:20 GMT Pugsley said:

All you need to know is that when played well its ok, when it's not it's turgid diabolical tripe that turns into hoof ball.

It's a piece of piss to coach, based on percentages i.e. 50/50.

At this moment in time my club is playing the worst brand of football seen in any top flight league for 3 decades. All for £25million in the summer.

Just out of interest, are you a coach yourself?

[march4]

Feb 6, 2012 19:47:00 GMT Jamo on the wing said:

Feb 6, 2012 19:44:35 GMT march4 said:

You and I at least try to understand our tactics rather than simply moaning about them.

A quick, strong lone striker is a key part of our tactics as well and Ric is the best exponent we have.

Totally correct, march.

Ric is the key to the system working as we still have found an alternative to him.

I still think Crouch can play the more withdrawn of the two roles but needs a Ric alongside him to give him any sort of chance.

Crouchy didn't look too clever at Derby in the role (I am discounting Saturday due to the weather).

I am not convinced that Crouchy can bomb around the centre circle when our opponents have the ball, even though on the stats he runs more miles than any other Stoke player during games.

[Jamo on the wing]

Feb 6, 2012 19:49:49 GMT march4 said:

Feb 6, 2012 19:47:00 GMT Jamo on the wing said:

Totally correct, march.

Ric is the key to the system working as we still have found an alternative to him.

I still think Crouch can play the more withdrawn of the two roles but needs a Ric alongside him to give him any sort of chance.

Crouchy didn't look too clever at Derby in the role (I am discounting Saturday due to the weather).

I am not convinced that Crouchy can bomb around the centre circle when our opponents have the ball, even though on the stats he runs more miles than any other Stoke player during games.

Possibly not but I can't see Tone playing Jon and Ric as much as I can't see him dropping a 10m signing.

We need to work out how we can "make" it work.

I still think with a slight tinkering it can as it did with Beattie who wasn't that mobile either.

[Pugsley]

Feb 6, 2012 19:44:25 GMT french toast said:

Feb 6, 2012 18:59:20 GMT Pugsley said:

All you need to know is that when played well its ok, when it's not it's turgid diabolical tripe that turns into hoof ball.

It's a piece of piss to coach, based on percentages i.e. 50/50.

At this moment in time my club is playing the worst brand of football seen in any top flight league for 3 decades. All for £25million in the summer.

why arent you a top flight manager....in real life not on football manager because you are clearly a football genius

Cheers, thanks for the compliment. I have never played silly computer games.

It doesn't take Rinus Michels to see what we've seen recently has been atrocious. I defy you to say otherwise.

[french toast]

Feb 6, 2012 19:52:54 GMT Pugsley said:

Feb 6, 2012 19:44:25 GMT french toast said:

why arent you a top flight manager....in real life not on football manager because you are clearly a football genius

Cheers, thanks for the compliment. I have never played silly computer games.

It doesn't take Rinus Michels to see what we've seen recently has been atrocious. I defy you to say otherwise.

i tell it as i see it!

its not been great no, but as ive said many many times before we are a streaky team and as a season on the whole its been fantastic so far and were still in two competitions that we are capable of going very far in.

people need to look at the bigger picture, it wasnt long ago that we won four premier league games in a row, our away form has been much improved on recent seasons and i for one have a half full glass at this very moment

[numpty40]

Feb 6, 2012 19:44:35 GMT march4 said:

Feb 6, 2012 19:41:49 GMT Paul Spencer said:

Excellent post March - I agree with every word.

I just wanted to add, that the tactic is infinitely easier to counter, when the withdrawn striker's partner doesn't have any pace.

You and I at least try to understand our tactics rather than simply moaning about them.

A quick, strong lone striker is a key part of our tactics as well and Ric is the best exponent we have.

I think the majority on here understand our tactics, they are moaning because at home they are clearly ineffective.
We lack pace and mobility in our attacking play and mediocre sides are finding us very easy to play against by crowding the midfield and making the 'withdrawn' striker redundant.
I would start with Jones and Jerome up front ALONGSIDE each other and utilise their pace.
The withdrawn striker role served us well as we found our feet in the Premiership and is useful away from home or against better sides.
Time to bin it at home though.

[peterthornesboots]

Feb 6, 2012 18:59:20 GMT Pugsley said:

All you need to know is that when played well its ok, when it's not it's turgid diabolical tripe that turns into hoof ball.

It's a piece of piss to coach, based on percentages i.e. 50/50.

At this moment in time my club is playing the worst brand of football seen in any top flight league for 3 decades. All for £25million in the summer.

If you had the slightest knowledge about coaching football at a decent standard you would know that it's not "a piece of piss".

[Stretfordpotterer]

Feb 6, 2012 18:54:02 GMT march4 said:

The role is the key to how we play. It is the fulcrum around which all of our movement revolves.

It allows us to get the ball from front to back quickly. A long diagonal ball from our full backs into our opponent's half drops short of their centre backs and allows the withdrawn striker a number of options. A good long pass and he can head it on to the lone striker or out to one of the wingers. He can hold the ball up if the wingers are slow getting up the field. If the withdrawn striker is near to the touchline he can win a throw or even a free kick. Even if he doesn't win the ball, his job is to make it difficult for our opponents to clear it cleanly, thus bringing into play our defensive midfielders who are waiting for a scuffed clearance. They then pass to the full backs and hey presto the process begins again.

When our opponents have the ball, the withdrawn striker must stop any build up play by their defenders/defensive midfielders. He is there to patrol the centre circle and harrass any opponents who have the ball there. If he can nick the ball away to our midfielders, they knock it to the full backs who hoist it forwards for the withdrawn striker to start the next attack.

It gives us a 4-4-1-1 in possession and 4-5-1 when chasing the ball.

The role is difficult for opponents to counter because their midfielders are not used to competing for long balls forwards to a big/strong player operating in the no man's land in front of their back 4. If one of their centre backs moves out of position to win the ball, then our lone striker has a one vs one with the remaining centre back if the ball runs forwards.

There are ways to counter it, but I will not give away any state secrets as only a handful of managers have worked out a successful remedy.

The withdrawn striker comes in 2 varieties; Mama position and Duracell bunny.

So far, Mama has shown himself to be one of the best in the Mama position (in spite of us spending over £20M on replacements). BT has been the best option overall.

Walters is our best Duracell bunny.

The withdrawn striker also has an important role to play when we have a setpiece. He is the one who disrupts our opponents defences. Mama was particularly effective at corralling 4 or 5 defenders and keeping them away from the ball. Look at the goals we scored from Rory's throws in our first season for some examples. Walters also acts as a block to stop defenders attacking the ball. A classic was BT at Hull who threw himself backwards into the path of 3 defenders to allow Ric the time to turn and score.

When the withdrawn striker plays well, then the team plays well.

Take away the withdrawn striker and the current team shape dissolves. It is impossible to play our football in the way we do without it.

can't fault your analysis of it's necessity to the way we play, but then we have to ask whether the way we play is a necessity.

Ie, is two men in the cage essential at home, against mid to lower ranking teams.

I'd argue that it isn't and that we could afford to release a midfielder up the pitch more readily to give us more options up the park when we're on the ball.

the sunderland game is a classic case in point, they just sat deep, not really commiting anyone from centre midfield forward, therefore rendering one of the two men in the cage a spare part.

against certain teams, ie liverpool, the cage is a perfect trap to bog down an attacking midfielder (stevie g a classic example) in a battle they don't really want to get involved in. but for me a lot of the time teams are simply retreating and frustrating our 4 forward players, leaving us no room or time, silencing the crowd and hoping we make a mistake, and it's working.

[march4]

Feb 6, 2012 21:09:05 GMT Stretfordpotterer said:

Feb 6, 2012 18:54:02 GMT march4 said:

The role is the key to how we play. It is the fulcrum around which all of our movement revolves.

It allows us to get the ball from front to back quickly. A long diagonal ball from our full backs into our opponent's half drops short of their centre backs and allows the withdrawn striker a number of options. A good long pass and he can head it on to the lone striker or out to one of the wingers. He can hold the ball up if the wingers are slow getting up the field. If the withdrawn striker is near to the touchline he can win a throw or even a free kick. Even if he doesn't win the ball, his job is to make it difficult for our opponents to clear it cleanly, thus bringing into play our defensive midfielders who are waiting for a scuffed clearance. They then pass to the full backs and hey presto the process begins again.

When our opponents have the ball, the withdrawn striker must stop any build up play by their defenders/defensive midfielders. He is there to patrol the centre circle and harrass any opponents who have the ball there. If he can nick the ball away to our midfielders, they knock it to the full backs who hoist it forwards for the withdrawn striker to start the next attack.

It gives us a 4-4-1-1 in possession and 4-5-1 when chasing the ball.

The role is difficult for opponents to counter because their midfielders are not used to competing for long balls forwards to a big/strong player operating in the no man's land in front of their back 4. If one of their centre backs moves out of position to win the ball, then our lone striker has a one vs one with the remaining centre back if the ball runs forwards.

There are ways to counter it, but I will not give away any state secrets as only a handful of managers have worked out a successful remedy.

The withdrawn striker comes in 2 varieties; Mama position and Duracell bunny.

So far, Mama has shown himself to be one of the best in the Mama position (in spite of us spending over £20M on replacements). BT has been the best option overall.

Walters is our best Duracell bunny.

The withdrawn striker also has an important role to play when we have a setpiece. He is the one who disrupts our opponents defences. Mama was particularly effective at corralling 4 or 5 defenders and keeping them away from the ball. Look at the goals we scored from Rory's throws in our first season for some examples. Walters also acts as a block to stop defenders attacking the ball. A classic was BT at Hull who threw himself backwards into the path of 3 defenders to allow Ric the time to turn and score.

When the withdrawn striker plays well, then the team plays well.

Take away the withdrawn striker and the current team shape dissolves. It is impossible to play our football in the way we do without it.

can't fault your analysis of it's necessity to the way we play, but then we have to ask whether the way we play is a necessity.

Ie, is two men in the cage essential at home, against mid to lower ranking teams.

I'd argue that it isn't and that we could afford to release a midfielder up the pitch more readily to give us more options up the park when we're on the ball.

the sunderland game is a classic case in point, they just sat deep, not really commiting anyone from centre midfield forward, therefore rendering one of the two men in the cage a spare part.

against certain teams, ie liverpool, the cage is a perfect trap to bog down an attacking midfielder (stevie g a classic example) in a battle they don't really want to get involved in. but for me a lot of the time teams are simply retreating and frustrating our 4 forward players, leaving us no room or time, silencing the crowd and hoping we make a mistake, and it's working.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions from our last 2 home games due to the adverse weather.

Look at the winning goal at Wolves - a long diagonal ball which Walters fought for. It broke to our wingers who between them crossed for Crouch to score. A classic Stoke goal.

4-4-1-1 is working beautifully away from home with 5 wins and a draw in the last couple of months.

I take your point at home, but I would argue that it is as much Wilson continually delaying the long ball forwards that is causing the problems than the front two. By the time Wilson decides what to do, Walters is covered by two men and can't even make their clearance difficult. It is certainly frustrating TP, as those behind the dugouts will testify.

I would argue that to improve at home we need to be shifting the ball out of defence much more quickly to turn teams and make life more uncomfortable for them. The key to this is one Ricardo Fuller who frequently makes good use of the scruffy ball that the withdrawn striker develops.

I actually think that Crouchy is better away from the Brit than at home and in spite of the big spend would have him on the bench for home games.

From our present personnel, I would go with Walters as Duracell Bunny with Fuller in his customary position.

If anyone knows of younger versions of Mama and Ric, they should get in touch with TP asap.

[Stretfordpotterer]

Feb 6, 2012 21:25:59 GMT march4 said:

Feb 6, 2012 21:09:05 GMT Stretfordpotterer said:

can't fault your analysis of it's necessity to the way we play, but then we have to ask whether the way we play is a necessity.

Ie, is two men in the cage essential at home, against mid to lower ranking teams.

I'd argue that it isn't and that we could afford to release a midfielder up the pitch more readily to give us more options up the park when we're on the ball.

the sunderland game is a classic case in point, they just sat deep, not really commiting anyone from centre midfield forward, therefore rendering one of the two men in the cage a spare part.

against certain teams, ie liverpool, the cage is a perfect trap to bog down an attacking midfielder (stevie g a classic example) in a battle they don't really want to get involved in. but for me a lot of the time teams are simply retreating and frustrating our 4 forward players, leaving us no room or time, silencing the crowd and hoping we make a mistake, and it's working.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions from our last 2 home games due to the adverse weather.

Look at the winning goal at Wolves - a long diagonal ball which Walters fought for. It broke to our wingers who between them crossed for Crouch to score. A classic Stoke goal.

4-4-1-1 is working beautifully away from home with 5 wins and a draw in the last couple of months.

I take your point at home, but I would argue that it is as much Wilson continually delaying the long ball forwards that is causing the problems than the front two. By the time Wilson decides what to do, Walters is covered by two men and can't even make their clearance difficult. It is certainly frustrating TP, as those behind the dugouts will testify.

I would argue that to improve at home we need to be shifting the ball out of defence much more quickly to turn teams and make life more uncomfortable for them. The key to this is one Ricardo Fuller who frequently makes good use of the scruffy ball that the withdrawn striker develops.

I actually think that Crouchy is better away from the Brit than at home and in spite of the big spend would have him on the bench for home games.

From our present personnel, I would go with Walters as Duracell Bunny with Fuller in his customary position.

If anyone knows of younger versions of Mama and Ric, they should get in touch with TP asap.

i find it heard to blame a right footed player out of position for not getting the ball forward quickly enough, usually it's because he wants to get the ball on his right. Tony should stop getting frustrated with wilson and buy a left back IMO. that would help ethers immensely, as would getting pennant on from the start, it doesn't help wilson that ethers is currently doubled up on because there's only one winger to worry about.

As you , say, away it's fine, have no problem with it.