How many clubs can the league system support?

[knowingeye]

In the current downward economic climate and the ever reducing funding (from gate receipts, investment, sponsorship etc) for football clubs, how many active full-time professional clubs in England can the existing Premier League, Football league and conference system really support? ???

[offthewall]

8 - lets scrap all the teams and start an NFL style franchise system. We then could play all the other franchise teams from around the world, brilliant plan.

Shanghai Surprise v Paris Match
Brazil Nuts v LA Galaxy
Moscow Mules v Celtic Rangers

That sort of thing ?

[stodge]

Personally I think it would make sense to make the leagues more regional maybe from League 1 down? So combine 1 and 2 and maybe the conference then split them regionally.

It would save costs for those clubs, give more local interest to the games and make it easier for fans to travel to see their lower league teams.

It would also provide better opportunity for up and coming lower league clubs to rise. One up from each regional league to championship each season with a playoff of some sort for a 4th spot.

Complete bollocks that won't happen but i think it might help a bit.

[offthewall]

Jan 20, 2012 11:04:06 GMT stodge said:

Personally I think it would make sense to make the leagues more regional maybe from League 1 down? So combine 1 and 2 and maybe the conference then split them regionally.

It would save costs for those clubs, give more local interest to the games and make it easier for fans to travel to see their lower league teams.

It would also provide better opportunity for up and coming lower league clubs to rise. One up from each regional league to championship each season with a playoff of some sort for a 4th spot.

Complete bollocks that won't happen but i think it might help a bit.

This is actually a good idea, just check how many miles Carlisle fans have to travel in a season

[jeycov]

I agree good idea -of course we are intending to stay in the Premiership but are we in the north or the south?

[dexter97]

Jan 20, 2012 11:23:03 GMT jeycov said:

I agree good idea -of course we are intending to stay in the Premiership but are we in the north or the south?

Sometimes north, sometimes south, depending on the number of more-northerly (or southerly) teams in the competition. In the Autoglass, for example, we've played in both the northern and southern sections.

[y_oh_y_delilah]

A lot of folk on here will remember the old Third Division South and Third Division North, which basically was made up of today's League 1 and League 2 clubs.

I really don't understand why this was ever changed for the lower league clubs because obviously it meant far less travelling for players and fans alike, less expense and bigger gates because of the regional aspect/local derby games.

A return to this system would certainly help, but in today's climate, and I've thought this for many a while, there needs to be a severe cull of full-time professional clubs. As it is today, everyone now knows the present structure simply isn't sustainable any longer.

For example, how on gods earth does anyone believe that a small city like Stoke-on-Trent can sustain two professional football league teams in today's financial climate is beyond me and the situation will only get worse.

In my opinion what needs to happen, and this applies to every club in England/Wales outside the Prem, is that a restriction is imposed on players salaries. Something like a percentage cap of turnover would do it and a return to regional leagues, for the bottom two divisions at least.

There's probably other measures that can be tried, but for certain the league pyramid as it is today will not survive much longer.

[offthewall]

Jan 20, 2012 12:01:33 GMT y_oh_y_delilah said:

A lot of folk on here will remember the old Third Division South and Third Division North, which basically was made up of today's League 1 and League 2 clubs.

I really don't understand why this was ever changed for the lower league clubs because obviously it meant far less travelling for players and fans alike, less expense and bigger gates because of the regional aspect/local derby games.

A return to this system would certainly help, but in today's climate, and I've thought this for many a while, there needs to be a severe cull of full-time professional clubs. As it is today, everyone now knows the present structure simply isn't sustainable any longer.

For example, how on gods earth does anyone believe that a small city like Stoke-on-Trent can sustain two professional football league teams in today's financial climate is beyond me and the situation will only get worse.

In my opinion what needs to happen, and this applies to every club in England/Wales outside the Prem, is that a restriction is imposed on players salaries. Something like a percentage cap of turnover would do it and a return to regional leagues, for the bottom two divisions at least.

There's probably other measures that can be tried, but for certain the league pyramid as it is today will not survive much longer.

Why just outside the Prem ?

[albanianstokie]

Regionalising the lower leagues I think will help. Even when you take clubs like Carlisle and Plymouth out of the equation, many fans travel huge distances to support their teams, surely gates would be higher if travelling could be cut down?

[Deleted]

Can, or could, ke?

The Premier League has the highest revenue of any football league in the world, with total club revenues of €2.479 billion (euros) in 2009–10.

What does it cost to run the FL and Conferences? 10% of that? 15%, maybe?

Let's face it, just the TV money alone could (and once, did) run the existing 92 clubs ten times over. The fact that it can't is down to where the vast majority of that 2.5 billion Euros ends up.

Consider the - oft touted - German model. The Bundesliga generates 1 billion euros LESS than the Premier League ... but makes 80-million MORE Euros in profit ... wonder why that is?

I can't find a list of Worldwide TV rights holders for the Germans, but I can for the English ... You'd think with very nearly the entire planet watching the coverage, someone, somewhere would be able to find a couple of quid to help out the Darlos of this world ... Then again, no you wouldn't and neither would I ... not when we need to be paying Crouchy a sizeable old wedge each week to turn out for little old us.

So, can/could; which do you want?

[knowingeye]

Jan 20, 2012 12:34:23 GMT @andyhar said:

So, can/could; which do you want?

Or will?

[PotteringThrough]

Villas Boas has raised this discussion today suggesting we adopt the Spanish model in regards to "B Teams" or alternatively feeder clubs being purchased by larger clubs. Whilst this could possibly work out financially how would the teams feel who are now becoming feeder clubs? Let's not forget 10 years ago we were in League 1 (Old Second Division or Old Old Third Division) and would we have been subject to being purchased and becoming a feeder club? I certainly wouldn't have wanted that becuase it would then be pretty much impossible for us to go anywhere other than where we were.

It's a tough decision to make but if the current things stay as they are then teams will begin to fall and sometihng does need to be done. I think the original suggenstion of regionalising the bottom two divisions would be much better and then doing the opposite with Johstones Paint (Autoglass/Autowindscreens) trophy and making that a straight draw knockout for the teams as this is an important trophy. This would improve the finances somewhat I believe.

[swampmongrel]

The league system can easily support 92 proffessional clubs. In fact it supports more because a lot of Conference clubs are proffesional as well.

Even a struggling club like Vale can turnover more than £3million a year which is pretty good for a business that could get by with only 30 or 40 fulltime staff.

The problem is idiot chairman leavaging up their clubs and inflating wages and fees in pursuit of the promised land or shyster assett strippers getting their hands on community clubs.

Enforcable salary caps would help as would getting serious about the fit and proper persons tests. Local councils should also have a role by making clear that the land that grounds sit on will not be re-zoned for retail.

Going back to the old Div 3 North/South would help as well.

[santy]

B teams lower down the hierarchy is in a number of countries aside from Spain and it does help youth development immensely. They can't get promoted beyond a certain point, so you imagine the spots are just passed on one place.

As more teams begin going down the rocky route of being unable to remain professional and unable to fulfill fixtures it does become a possibility some of the bigger sides will say "we'll put together a team to fulfill those fixtures".

The simple matter is now, you couldn't restructure the way money comes into the English game and its distribution for at least 5/6 years from any announced date to do so. Contracts would have to change, meaning that players with clauses and long term deals would need to be allowed to expire. Transfer fees would need to come down, meaning clubs had to be allowed to get out of their liability periods.

If you cut every premiership sides income by just £5m you put a lot of clubs in precarious situations where they have to get a loan to fill the void and then it begins to snowball. The problem with football outside the premiership is there was more money in those leagues for a few years, and it inflated wages and such at the lowest level but then the money was withdrawn.

Agents and players were now already getting more money, so when moving clubs players wanted terms on parity with what they currently had and then new players came along saying "well X is on Y, so I want Y too" and it meant that the agents and players were still taking as much money as before when clubs didn't have the income to sustain it.

[stokemark]

What about combining the rationalisation idea with the geographic one

Then we can just have two teams - 'North V South' which will play all games in Birmingham

Imagine the advertising - particularly if you come from Stoke

'Which will YOU support' ???

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2012 13:01:13 GMT knowingeye said:

Jan 20, 2012 12:34:23 GMT @andyhar said:

So, can/could; which do you want?

Or will?

Will?

I think it will almost certainly end up supporting Premier League A and Premier League B, and everything else will be much more like amateur football than professional.

Might take 10 years, might take less; but there seems no end to the spiral of higher wages, which require more money at the top end of the game, leaving even less for the bottom end.

I am sympathetic, to a point ... Darlo isn't going bust on crowds of 25000 filling their (ridiculous) stadium, every week. It's going bust on tiny attendances, due in the main to a poor quality - and relatively expensive - product.

The days of £1 (and less) football, for the working-man are long gone and won't return. That was the system that supported 92+ clubs ... The current £30+ per game is not intended to - and medium term won't - support the same setup.

We were lucky - very, very lucky, when you look back. But every club can't be lucky and - as football is a business - eventually too many will hit the wall to make the bottom Division (if not the bottom two) merely an extension of the "amateur" non-league system (and yes, probably regionalised)



It's sad ... but then people probably said the same about canal barges as the first trains rumbled by ...

[Tubes]

where has all the billy big time bollocks about the country not being able to support 92 professional league teams come from? It can and it does.

Yes there are clubs that are struggling but since we've allowed football to become a business we then have to accept the rules of the market - i.e. some clubs will fail - but the fact that professional football exists below the top four leagues shows that indeed the market place is big enough to support them.

[stokiejoeofalsager]

Jan 20, 2012 12:01:33 GMT y_oh_y_delilah said:

A lot of folk on here will remember the old Third Division South and Third Division North, which basically was made up of today's League 1 and League 2 clubs.

I really don't understand why this was ever changed for the lower league clubs because obviously it meant far less travelling for players and fans alike, less expense and bigger gates because of the regional aspect/local derby games.

A return to this system would certainly help, but in today's climate, and I've thought this for many a while, there needs to be a severe cull of full-time professional clubs. As it is today, everyone now knows the present structure simply isn't sustainable any longer.

For example, how on gods earth does anyone believe that a small city like Stoke-on-Trent can sustain two professional football league teams in today's financial climate is beyond me and the situation will only get worse.

In my opinion what needs to happen, and this applies to every club in England/Wales outside the Prem, is that a restriction is imposed on players salaries. Something like a percentage cap of turnover would do it and a return to regional leagues, for the bottom two divisions at least.

There's probably other measures that can be tried, but for certain the league pyramid as it is today will not survive much longer.

and neither north west tonight or midlands news will talk about us ;D ;D its like both of them dont want us ;D

[justinp]

Jan 20, 2012 12:01:33 GMT y_oh_y_delilah said:

A lot of folk on here will remember the old Third Division South and Third Division North, which basically was made up of today's League 1 and League 2 clubs.

I really don't understand why this was ever changed for the lower league clubs because obviously it meant far less travelling for players and fans alike, less expense and bigger gates because of the regional aspect/local derby games.

A return to this system would certainly help, but in today's climate, and I've thought this for many a while, there needs to be a severe cull of full-time professional clubs. As it is today, everyone now knows the present structure simply isn't sustainable any longer.

For example, how on gods earth does anyone believe that a small city like Stoke-on-Trent can sustain two professional football league teams in today's financial climate is beyond me and the situation will only get worse.

In my opinion what needs to happen, and this applies to every club in England/Wales outside the Prem, is that a restriction is imposed on players salaries. Something like a percentage cap of turnover would do it and a return to regional leagues, for the bottom two divisions at least.

There's probably other measures that can be tried, but for certain the league pyramid as it is today will not survive much longer.

www.ukcities.co.uk/populations/

Not that small mate, 22nd by those estimations, and of course that doesn't include 'castle n kidsgrove.
Not sure but I think by greater urban area the potteries is about 16th.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_Kingdom_settlements_by_population

I know it's Wikipedia, but according to that just the city is 16th biggest, it says n all that if Newcastle and Kidsgrove were included then 'the potteries urban area' is the 10th biggest in the country.
So not small at all. It may just be that the poly centric nature of stoke makes it seem small compared to single centre cities.

Think it's fair to say stoke could support 2 professional clubs, it's not our fault vale are cack and badly run.

[mayf]

When you see how little income the non league and league 2 teams need to survive (relative to the prem and championship) it would only take a fraction of the premier leagues tv money be diverted to the lower divisions to prevent cases like Darlington happening....so long as the extra income didn't go to increasing players wages,that's the problem