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Post by mozzer68 on Dec 27, 2011 14:23:11 GMT
Look, we didn't sign him. He really looks the part granted and i and many many others would have loved him to be playing for us. Rightly or wrongly the club decided not to buy him based on the medical and they have to live by that. I know it's bloody frustrating to see him doing so well and thinking what might have been, but please, please, Can we put this to bed?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 14:25:30 GMT
We only know that with hindsight though don't we? We could have paid the £6-7m for him and his knee could have gone within weeks. It has fuck all to do with hindsight or a bone fide argument that he might break down at any time. Stoke tried to get fly on the deal and caught a fucking flea in the ear. That said I doubt he would have had the service he needs to score the 14 he already has done for Newcastle. H In what way has it got nothing to do with hindsight? We're not the only club to be put off signing him becaue of his knees. Stuttgart pulled out because of it. West Ham restructured their deal. We tried to do the same but they didn't want to. If we'd signed him for a fair old whack and his knee had gone pop soon after we'd have had the usual suspects on here calling Pulis every name under the sun.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 14:27:39 GMT
We only know that with hindsight though don't we? We could have paid the £6-7m for him and his knee could have gone within weeks. The only issue for me, Rob is that we seemed relaxed spending good money on Palacios (who I like by the way) despite him coming off the back of an injury. Ba was far closer to match fitness than WP when we were trying to complete the deals so it seems a strange one. Clearly it was done with the best intentions by the medical team but as it stands it looks like they were over cautious on this one. There's more than one type of knee injury though Jamo. The concern with Ba was that his knee condition is degenerative, ie it isn't going to get better. With Palacios, as far as we know, his injury was one that we felt he could fully recover from.
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Post by RAF on Dec 27, 2011 14:30:59 GMT
It has fuck all to do with hindsight or a bone fide argument that he might break down at any time. Stoke tried to get fly on the deal and caught a fucking flea in the ear. That said I doubt he would have had the service he needs to score the 14 he already has done for Newcastle. H In what way has it got nothing to do with hindsight? We're not the only club to be put off signing him becaue of his knees. Stuttgart pulled out because of it. West Ham restructured their deal. We tried to do the same but they didn't want to. If we'd signed him for a fair old whack and his knee had gone pop soon after we'd have had the usual suspects on here calling Pulis every name under the sun. Because I think it's a bollocks argument. We fucked the deal up by trying to be too clever and nothing to do with his so called 'Dodgy Knees' and all to do with us getting wanky about price. The reason they didn't want to negotiate with us is because we gave them the arse. H
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 14:42:54 GMT
In what way has it got nothing to do with hindsight? We're not the only club to be put off signing him becaue of his knees. Stuttgart pulled out because of it. West Ham restructured their deal. We tried to do the same but they didn't want to. If we'd signed him for a fair old whack and his knee had gone pop soon after we'd have had the usual suspects on here calling Pulis every name under the sun. Because I think it's a bollocks argument. We fucked the deal up by trying to be too clever and nothing to do with his so called 'Dodgy Knees' and all to do with us getting wanky about price. The reason they didn't want to negotiate with us is because we gave them the arse. H We undoubtedly gave them the arse but the concerns about his knee were entirely legitimate as far as we knew at the time. We probably didn't handle it very well but we can't be blamed for having concerns and not spunking six million quid on him, something borne out by the fact that none of the other interested parties were prepared to do that once he'd had a medical with them either.
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Post by RAF on Dec 27, 2011 14:51:33 GMT
I'm of the opinion Rob, that it was all about negotiation and fuck all to do with his 'condition'. But that's just my opinion.
H
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 15:02:05 GMT
I'm of the opinion Rob, that it was all about negotiation and fuck all to do with his 'condition'. But that's just my opinion. H I don't buy that mate. There's not really any evidence to suggest that is there? While there's plenty to suggest that the majority of interested parties had concerns about his knee.
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Post by itscoldatwork on Dec 27, 2011 15:03:53 GMT
Everyone seems to forget the zigic and Ashton transfers when the club made a perfect decision.
You can't get it right all the time
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Post by RAF on Dec 27, 2011 15:05:03 GMT
I'm of the opinion Rob, that it was all about negotiation and fuck all to do with his 'condition'. But that's just my opinion. H I don't buy that mate. There's not really any evidence to suggest that is there? While there's plenty to suggest that the majority of interested parties had concerns about his knee. I think there is plenty of evidence if you look hard enough. West Ham and Newcastle had no problem with the bloke because they got him on the cheap, which is what we were trying to do but got too cute. he would be a Stoke player now I am convinced if our fucking around had come off. H
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 15:20:34 GMT
I don't buy that mate. There's not really any evidence to suggest that is there? While there's plenty to suggest that the majority of interested parties had concerns about his knee. I think there is plenty of evidence if you look hard enough. West Ham and Newcastle had no problem with the bloke because they got him on the cheap, which is what we were trying to do but got too cute. he would be a Stoke player now I am convinced if our fucking around had come off. H West Ham did have a problem though. He failed their medical Hence them restructuring the deal. Newcastle were in a much better position to take a punt because they could get him for nowt. We didn't have that luxury. We probably handled negotiations badly but there's no evidence to suggest that the knee issue wasn't a factor in us getting cold feet.
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Post by RAF on Dec 27, 2011 15:23:27 GMT
I think there is plenty of evidence if you look hard enough. West Ham and Newcastle had no problem with the bloke because they got him on the cheap, which is what we were trying to do but got too cute. he would be a Stoke player now I am convinced if our fucking around had come off. H West Ham did have a problem though. He failed their medical Hence them restructuring the deal. Newcastle were in a much better position to take a punt because they could get him for nowt. We didn't have that luxury. We probably handled negotiations badly but there's no evidence to suggest that the knee issue wasn't a factor in us getting cold feet. The picture with him wearing a Stoke shirt says different to me Rob, but again that's my opinion. I don't think we gave a fuck about his dodgy knees, we just wanted him on the cheap and fucked it royally. Fullers knees and Palacios's problems didn't deter us after all. H
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 15:32:04 GMT
West Ham did have a problem though. He failed their medical Hence them restructuring the deal. Newcastle were in a much better position to take a punt because they could get him for nowt. We didn't have that luxury. We probably handled negotiations badly but there's no evidence to suggest that the knee issue wasn't a factor in us getting cold feet. The picture with him wearing a Stoke shirt says different to me Rob, but again that's my opinion. I don't think we gave a fuck about his dodgy knees, we just wanted him on the cheap and fucked it royally. Fullers knees and Palacios's problems didn't deter us after all. H We didn't want to pay much because of his dodgy knees though? We've never been shy about spending a quid or two in recent years have we? We agreed a fee though, which suggests that we were happy to pay if he got through the medical. Fuller we could take the risk because he was cheap. Palacios' condition, as far as we know, wasn't degenerative, so we felt he could make a full recovery, something that doctors told us wasn't the case with Ba's.
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Post by RAF on Dec 27, 2011 15:36:05 GMT
The picture with him wearing a Stoke shirt says different to me Rob, but again that's my opinion. I don't think we gave a fuck about his dodgy knees, we just wanted him on the cheap and fucked it royally. Fullers knees and Palacios's problems didn't deter us after all. H We didn't want to pay much because of his dodgy knees though? We've never been shy about spending a quid or two in recent years have we? We agreed a fee though, which suggests that we were happy to pay if he got through the medical. Fuller we could take the risk because he was cheap. Palacios' condition, as far as we know, wasn't degenerative, so we felt he could make a full recovery, something that doctors told us wasn't the case with Ba's. Let me tell you about the doctors at Stoke. One of my friends who I shall not mention his name was a Stoke City player, he broke his leg and was told by a Harley street doctor that under no circumstances was he to have traction. He went back to Stoke they put him in traction and fucked his leg for life, he walks with a permanent limp now. I wouldn't believe a fucking thing they say. H
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 27, 2011 15:37:40 GMT
The picture with him wearing a Stoke shirt says different to me Rob, but again that's my opinion. I don't think we gave a fuck about his dodgy knees, we just wanted him on the cheap and fucked it royally. Fullers knees and Palacios's problems didn't deter us after all. H We didn't want to pay much because of his dodgy knees though? We've never been shy about spending a quid or two in recent years have we? We agreed a fee though, which suggests that we were happy to pay if he got through the medical. Fuller we could take the risk because he was cheap. Palacios' condition, as far as we know, wasn't degenerative, so we felt he could make a full recovery, something that doctors told us wasn't the case with Ba's. I definitely think we tried to be a touch too cute though, Rob. Realistically the deal we offered wasn't going to be accepted after the initial negotiations and although we've had success in this method before (Abdy for example) eventually you do run the risk of getting told to "fuck off" and that is what I believe happened. Had we gone in with a permanent move with a down-payment but an overall deal heavily weighted towards appearances I do wonder if the lad would be in red and white as we speak. He's the real deal and that's why Tone was after him for 2 years.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 15:41:42 GMT
We didn't want to pay much because of his dodgy knees though? We've never been shy about spending a quid or two in recent years have we? We agreed a fee though, which suggests that we were happy to pay if he got through the medical. Fuller we could take the risk because he was cheap. Palacios' condition, as far as we know, wasn't degenerative, so we felt he could make a full recovery, something that doctors told us wasn't the case with Ba's. Let me tell you about the doctors at Stoke. One of my friends who I shall not mention his name was a Stoke City player, he broke his leg and was told by a Harley street doctor that under no circumstances was he to have traction. He went back to Stoke they put him in traction and fucked his leg for life, he walks with a permanent limp now. I wouldn't believe a fucking thing they say. H Fair enough mate, but that doesn't change the fact that at least two other clubs had the same concerns that we did. Jamo - it's certainly feasible that we didn't handle negotiations particularly well and we clearly pissed the player and his representatives right off. But I still think caution about his condition was valid.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 27, 2011 15:46:54 GMT
Let me tell you about the doctors at Stoke. One of my friends who I shall not mention his name was a Stoke City player, he broke his leg and was told by a Harley street doctor that under no circumstances was he to have traction. He went back to Stoke they put him in traction and fucked his leg for life, he walks with a permanent limp now. I wouldn't believe a fucking thing they say. H Fair enough mate, but that doesn't change the fact that at least two other clubs had the same concerns that we did. Jamo - it's certainly feasible that we didn't handle negotiations particularly well and we clearly pissed the player and his representatives right off. But I still think caution about his condition was valid. Me too. The other deals Ba has been involved in are wildly different from the potential one Stoke were going to be involved in and we had every right to think twice about it. As it happened it screwed the deal and he went somewhere else (on massively different terms). Turned out to be a bit of a pisser but that's life. All this stuff about us being too tight or too cute is based on nowt.
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Post by seddonstandviewer on Dec 27, 2011 15:48:43 GMT
Stuttgart - 12m Euro fee accepted, medical failed. Didn't sign.
Stoke City - 9M fee accepted, medical failed. Didn't sign.
West Ham - 500k fee accepted with 500k per X amount of games. Medical failed, but signed.
Newcastle - free transfer. Signed.
Spot the correlation.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 27, 2011 15:49:30 GMT
Fair enough mate, but that doesn't change the fact that at least two other clubs had the same concerns that we did. Jamo - it's certainly feasible that we didn't handle negotiations particularly well and we clearly pissed the player and his representatives right off. But I still think caution about his condition was valid. Me too. The other deals Ba has been involved in are wildly different from the potential one Stoke were going to be involved in and we had every right to think twice about it. As it happened it screwed the deal and he went somewhere else (on massively different terms). Turned out to be a bit of a pisser but that's life. All this stuff about us being too tight or too cute is based on nowt. To be fair the " too cute" is based on the fact that we have attempted to get cut price deals on this basis before so it doesn't take a wild leap of imagination to think this could have been an example of the tactic going wrong whereas in the past it has worked in our favour.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 27, 2011 15:51:14 GMT
Me too. The other deals Ba has been involved in are wildly different from the potential one Stoke were going to be involved in and we had every right to think twice about it. As it happened it screwed the deal and he went somewhere else (on massively different terms). Turned out to be a bit of a pisser but that's life. All this stuff about us being too tight or too cute is based on nowt. To be fair the " too cute" is based on the fact that we have attempted to get cut price deals on this basis before so it doesn't take a wild leap of imagination to think this could have been an example of the tactic going wrong whereas in the past it has worked in our favour. Not recently though?
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 27, 2011 15:52:28 GMT
Stuttgart - 12m Euro fee accepted, medical failed. Didn't sign. Stoke City - 9M fee accepted, medical failed. Didn't sign. West Ham - 500k fee accepted with 500k per X amount of games. Medical failed, but signed. Newcastle - free transfer. Signed. Spot the correlation. Yep, nobody has been prepared to spend big and I agree it is the correct stance to take given his injury record. However as both West Ham and Newcastle proved, there are ways of getting the deal done to protect the buyer and still have the player turning out for you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 15:52:51 GMT
Me too. The other deals Ba has been involved in are wildly different from the potential one Stoke were going to be involved in and we had every right to think twice about it. As it happened it screwed the deal and he went somewhere else (on massively different terms). Turned out to be a bit of a pisser but that's life. All this stuff about us being too tight or too cute is based on nowt. To be fair the " too cute" is based on the fact that we have attempted to get cut price deals on this basis before so it doesn't take a wild leap of imagination to think this could have been an example of the tactic going wrong whereas in the past it has worked in our favour. I don't think you can blame us for trying to do that kind of a deal though, given his problems. You can blame us for the cack-handed way we went about it, but not for trying to protect ourselves against the apparently legitimate risk that his knee could go.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 27, 2011 15:53:49 GMT
To be fair the " too cute" is based on the fact that we have attempted to get cut price deals on this basis before so it doesn't take a wild leap of imagination to think this could have been an example of the tactic going wrong whereas in the past it has worked in our favour. Not recently though? Depends on your definition of recently. The Abdy deal certainly was based on this notion and there's a suggestion that we did it with Palacios as well.
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Post by Jamo on the wing on Dec 27, 2011 15:55:10 GMT
To be fair the " too cute" is based on the fact that we have attempted to get cut price deals on this basis before so it doesn't take a wild leap of imagination to think this could have been an example of the tactic going wrong whereas in the past it has worked in our favour. I don't think you can blame us for trying to do that kind of a deal though, given his problems. You can blame us for the cack-handed way we went about it, but not for trying to protect ourselves against the apparently legitimate risk that his knee could go. Totally agree, Rob. It would have been mental to blindly carry on with the initial deal but there must have been some middle ground between £7m-ish and a loan?
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 27, 2011 15:57:36 GMT
Stuttgart - 12m Euro fee accepted, medical failed. Didn't sign. Stoke City - 9M fee accepted, medical failed. Didn't sign. West Ham - 500k fee accepted with 500k per X amount of games. Medical failed, but signed. Newcastle - free transfer. Signed. Spot the correlation. Yep, nobody has been prepared to spend big and I agree it is the correct stance to take given his injury record. However as both West Ham and Newcastle proved, there are ways of getting the deal done to protect the buyer and still have the player turning out for you. Yeah, but maybe not if you've already agreed 9 million quid for the player. I suspect we probably tried to do something along the lines of what WHU did, but Hoff got dirty-guts about it because they thought they were going to be getting 9m up front.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 16:04:21 GMT
I don't think you can blame us for trying to do that kind of a deal though, given his problems. You can blame us for the cack-handed way we went about it, but not for trying to protect ourselves against the apparently legitimate risk that his knee could go. Totally agree, Rob. It would have been mental to blindly carry on with the initial deal but there must have been some middle ground between £7m-ish and a loan? You'd think so. Perhaps we didn't do our homework and the knee problem caught us on the hop?
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