Segregation in football

[PotterLog]

Something I've been thinking about for a while...

Is segregation in football really a good thing? Is it really something we should be happy about?

When you boil it down and look at what it is, isn't it a bit absurd? As human beings in a civilised society should we really have to be kept apart from each other because we can't be trusted not to tear into each other at the first opportunity?

Personally I'm a bit torn about it - I can't deny that I enjoy the partisan, tribal side of football supporting, the singing and taunting from one end of the ground to the other - but when I look at what my principles are as a human being, I just can't justify it - how can it be necessary, justifiable or desirable, in this day and age, to have to be segregated like animals or criminals based on the entirely irrational and trivial matter of which football team you follow?

I know it wouldn't be in any way practical now and I'm not suggesting introducing it just like that, but I think that we as football fans and organisations like the FSF should be working towards a future where segregating fans is not wanted and not necessary.

Whaddya reck?

[JoeinOz]

I know what you mean. But you have to be realistic. Plenty of people like segregation.

[PotterLog]

I believe a day will come when we look back on the idea of segregation with disbelief, and separating people on such grounds will seem completely barbaric.

[JoeinOz]

In philosophical moments I think how ludicrous it is that some people can't be trusted to be near an opposing supporter without bashing their head in. What motivates people to do that?

[foster]

I think Black and White people should be allowed to sit in the same stands. I don't see any issue with it personally.

[Gods]

Segregation is indeed truly astonishing, almost Neanderthal in it's nature, in fact I think even the Neanderthals would have thought it backward.

While it started as an attempt to control fighting fans, somewhere and somehow it has become self-fulfilling in such a way that almost everyone feels they win:

- Fans get to enjoy the tribal behaviour and escapism so many relish. They get to dance around behind lines of stewards without actually having to hit anyone or indeed be hit

- TV companies get to show the collective passion in the stands they need to suggest they are covering something of real importance

- Police trouser get great wads of overtime to control the whole pantomime

- The media get a great news story when it does boil over

- Academics get to philosophise about it all and create new degree courses

[JoeinOz]

I'm sure elements of Millwall's support would love segregation to be abolished.

[StaffordPotter]

As long as 22 men are kicking a ball on a pitch there will be segregation!

[stokester1989]

I like segregation it brings atmosphere and rivalrys between the croud which to a certain extent is a good thing

[StokieBoy31]

Well I think it is the smart thing to do because some "football" fans can't help themselves punching a opposition fan :/

[ladyinred]

I like he segregation - HATE the 'neutral' end at Fulham because of the lack of segregation.

However, there is no need for a huge tarpauline covering 100's of seats.

Plenty of other grounds Arse/spurs/chelsea etc just have a small fence - This should be enough IMHO. Even if all physical barriers were removed, the nature of all seater stadia, with reserved seating would ensure that there was still an 'away section' of the ground.

A whole stadium being mixed would not be possible unless all seating was unreserved or the ground was always half empty (DW stad).

Besides - when I go to an away match, the atmosphere created by the other Stokies is often the best bit, I want to be in amongst our fans, not dotted in between the home fans.

[Deleted]

I dont believe we will ever see an end to seggregation and I wouldnt want to try.It was introduced for good reason.Stoke is now the safest it has been to watch football for five decades, why would we want to change it?...just enjoy the atmosphere and the fact you can take your kids now

[Dr Oetcake]

Jun 24, 2011 5:50:55 GMT foster said:

I think Black and White people should be allowed to sit in the same stands. I don't see any issue with it personally.

Speak for yourself, the idea of sitting next to some darkie who might squirt watermellon juice on my blazer and panama hat fills me with utter dread!

[Not_Nick_H]

Interesting debate - I remember in my earlier days as a supporter either sitting in home areas (main stands down the side usually) at away games with my parents with no mither and ditto at home in the Butler Street stand - a scattering of away fans with banter but no grief.

What puzzles me nowadays is why this tolerance seems to have disappeared even though we have supposedly left the neandethal (sp) territorial days behind in favour of more family friendly environments.

Tonight I'm off to watch Warrington v St Helens in Super League - one of the biggest rivalries in rugby league, but I will be in an area where Home and Away fans can stand* in the same area AND have a pint watching the game. To my mind RL fans aren't too dissimilar to football fans - many of them will be both, but somehow, the rivalry is kept to banter, songs and no more. And not in a jolly hockeysticks rugby union way either - RL is more working class, with all the passions that that brings.

As someone has pointed out, it's probably because somewhere in the psyche of some football fans, they can't shake off the old conflict fuelled mentality.

* A whole other debate.

[ladyinred]

Jun 24, 2011 12:50:13 GMT Not_Nick_H said:

Interesting debate - I remember in my earlier days as a supporter either sitting in home areas (main stands down the side usually) at away games with my parents with no mither and ditto at home in the Butler Street stand - a scattering of away fans with banter but no grief.

What puzzles me nowadays is why this tolerance seems to have disappeared even though we have supposedly left the neandethal (sp) territorial days behind in favour of more family friendly environments.

Tonight I'm off to watch Warrington v St Helens in Super League - one of the biggest rivalries in rugby league, but I will be in an area where Home and Away fans can stand* in the same area AND have a pint watching the game. To my mind RL fans aren't too dissimilar to football fans - many of them will be both, but somehow, the rivalry is kept to banter, songs and no more. And not in a jolly hockeysticks rugby union way either - RL is more working class, with all the passions that that brings.

As someone has pointed out, it's probably because somewhere in the psyche of some football fans, they can't shake off the old conflict fuelled mentality.

* A whole other debate.

It is bizzarre that football is subject to much more restriction than other events held in similar venues. e.g Take That concerts at Eastlands, many fans injured to to crushing crowds standing on the pitch and excessive consumption of alcohol.

Rugby League and Cricket both allow drinking and for fans to mingle with each other. Rugby League's current standing facilities allow this integration of fans. As a fan of rugby league that has been brought up on football, I was very surprised on my first visit to Knowseley road to find that fans entered through the same turnstyles and just had a 'ground' ticket. Yes the visiting fans congregated together, but there was no trouble. Even when I attended the Saints vs Wigan Good Friday game, just playful banter.

[manchesterpotter]

I think segregation in football grounds is brilliant. Without it I think the atmosphere would be lost. I spent quite a bit of time in America and went to quite a few American Football games where there is segregation in the crowds. I went to the FedEX Field, home of the Washington Redskins - it's the biggest NFL stadium with a capacity of 92,000. It was absolutely crammed full, but because of segregation there was no real atmosphere. Because all the fans were spread out you couldn't really hear anything but just an undecipherable noise.

It was such a surreal experience and in comparison to an English football game it was really poor. I've experienced better atmospheres at lower league English grounds. I think football thrives on this segregation at games. For 90 minutes you completely hate the opposite team and their fans, even if you have friends in the away crowd. It gives the crowd and the teams that adrenaline rush we all get from football. Without that, football wouldn't be half as good.

Another thing, imagine away fans in the Boothen. Disgusting.

[youareallwrong]

When I first starting going down the Vic in the 60s, I used to go on the Stoke end, because the Boothen seemed a bit intimidating. Stayed on there for a few years, always enjoyed the banter with visiting fans. Villa and West ham were always a good bunch, then it gradually got less and less safe. It was Liverpool fans that finally made me change to the Boothen in about 1970.

[Dr Oetcake]

Its the same in GAA, intense passion for the game, yet no problem with violence, and Croke Park will regularly host 80,000 crowds. I remember an example of American hooliganism in Madison Sq Gardens watching NY Rangers play Toronto, one of the Toroto fans stood up and shouted provocatively "Your team suck" to someone a few rows back, at which point 3 security staff descended on him and said he would be out of he did it again! Rock and roll!

[manchesterpotter]

Jun 24, 2011 14:04:51 GMT Dr Oetcake said:

Its the same in GAA, intense passion for the game, yet no problem with violence, and Croke Park will regularly host 80,000 crowds. I remember an example of American hooliganism in Madison Sq Gardens watching NY Rangers play Toronto, one of the Toroto fans stood up and shouted provocatively "Your team suck" to someone a few rows back, at which point 3 security staff descended on him and said he would be out of he did it again! Rock and roll!

Watch quite a lot of the GAA myself. Love a bit of Gaelic Footy, but I do find the crowds quite surreal. With it being an amateur sport there isn't the same sort of rivalry that we have in football. When i first saw it, I couldn't get my head around the fact that there was no real singing or chants.

[Bick]

Football needs segregation!!...

People have such commitment to their teams, that the slightest thing can set them off. I am not an agressive person, but chants from away fans, or a cheer for an opposition goal can set me off very easily.

Football is like no other sport really, and segregation will be needed forever, and I for one, and glad of it.

[Not_Nick_H]

Jun 24, 2011 13:31:34 GMT ladyinred said:

Jun 24, 2011 12:50:13 GMT Not_Nick_H said:

Interesting debate - I remember in my earlier days as a supporter either sitting in home areas (main stands down the side usually) at away games with my parents with no mither and ditto at home in the Butler Street stand - a scattering of away fans with banter but no grief.

What puzzles me nowadays is why this tolerance seems to have disappeared even though we have supposedly left the neandethal (sp) territorial days behind in favour of more family friendly environments.

Tonight I'm off to watch Warrington v St Helens in Super League - one of the biggest rivalries in rugby league, but I will be in an area where Home and Away fans can stand* in the same area AND have a pint watching the game. To my mind RL fans aren't too dissimilar to football fans - many of them will be both, but somehow, the rivalry is kept to banter, songs and no more. And not in a jolly hockeysticks rugby union way either - RL is more working class, with all the passions that that brings.

As someone has pointed out, it's probably because somewhere in the psyche of some football fans, they can't shake off the old conflict fuelled mentality.

* A whole other debate.

It is bizzarre that football is subject to much more restriction than other events held in similar venues. e.g Take That concerts at Eastlands, many fans injured to to crushing crowds standing on the pitch and excessive consumption of alcohol.

Rugby League and Cricket both allow drinking and for fans to mingle with each other. Rugby League's current standing facilities allow this integration of fans. As a fan of rugby league that has been brought up on football, I was very surprised on my first visit to Knowseley road to find that fans entered through the same turnstyles and just had a 'ground' ticket. Yes the visiting fans congregated together, but there was no trouble. Even when I attended the Saints vs Wigan Good Friday game, just playful banter.

lady' - my first RL game was Warrington v Crusaders. The usual English/Welsh banter was going on in the stand where we were with no aggro, but I remember thinking "Christ, can you imagine this happening if it was Stoke v Cardiff?!"


It all depends to what level fans are segregated - the "ends" should be for the respective 'hardcore' home and away fans definitely, but I wouldn't mind if some visiting fans mingled in other areas. At the Brit though, they'd be hard pressed to find somewhere that any number could find a seat together. ;D

...and that's a side-effect/benefit of all-seaters - one seat = one person = measurability and traceability. Standing areas = more scope for fans to mingle and move around.

[peadar87]

You definitely gain something and lose something with segregation. I love the partisan stuff at Stoke, being in a crowd surrounded by 20,000 others, all hurling abuse, and singing songs, but I like being at unsegregated League of Ireland games as well, when there's a fair chance you'll be sitting next to someone from the other team, and you can have a chat about their players, how the season is going for them, and a bit of banter if a goal goes in. Unfortunately we can't have them both, and with the history in English football, I think segregation is the safest way to do things, at least for the time being.

[Gods]

Jun 24, 2011 14:15:41 GMT Bick said:

Football is like no other sport really, and segregation will be needed forever, and I for one, and glad of it.

I'm glad of it too but I bet it won't, "forever" is a long time !

[Deleted]

When segregation was brought in it was a necessary evil...away followings we're growing and becoming more yobbish ..and home supporters up for the challege would confront them...in fairness being called a wanker from someone standing next to you took bottle, cos surprise surprise you wouldn't tollerate it

Solving one problem brought new ones , invariably home supporters would 'earn' their stripes by infiltrating away sections, whilst the cowards just as today would hurl abuse from a safe distance..only differnace was in the 80's invarably when you came out of the away section anywhere there was a mob waiting for you...plenty of hangers on ..but plenty looking to do you serious harm too.

All segregation has done is build a generation of cowards who will happy hurl abuse and call someone a wanker from a distance...but as for getting up close and personally , they'd fill their pants if the away gates ever opened and there was a home mob waiting ...seems what passes these days is called banter , god help us...that's not banter ,it's yellow bellied cowards thinking they're hard.

Old scrote signing off

[Deleted]

As ever Scouse a good post-ive just made a similar point on the European away day thread

[lawrieleslie]

Jun 24, 2011 5:37:09 GMT JoeinOz said:

In philosophical moments I think how ludicrous it is that some people can't be trusted to be near an opposing supporter without bashing their head in. What motivates people to do that?

Same old thing....religion. Can't ever see Celtic vs Rangers in a de-segregated Ibrox or Celtic Park. There would be nobody left to tell the tale. Will never happen as long as religion exists imo.

[roby55]

I dont think we need it when we face harmless and safe family clubs like Fulham