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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 11:59:10 GMT
No one is saying practice doesn’t help you improve. Darts players practice, so do golfers, footballers train etc etc. Penalty taking is a unique situation in football though. It’s not a team moment, it’s not normal game play, it’s a dead ball situation with all eyes and pressure on the penalty taker. You can practice all day long and you will improve on the training ground. Your technique will get better and your success rate will improve. If you are not prepared or not mentally right to handle pressure though, ultimately it will make no difference. If you have scored 100 out of 100 but on the day you have a niggle in the back of your mind because of the pressure on you, there’s a better chance (compared to somebody who thrives on pressure or someone that can handle pressure) that you will miss. Do you really believe our record at penalties over the years is merely down to our players not practicing enough? The problem is much deeper than that. English players in general freeze on the big stage. Many other nations raise their players to relish the big stage and teach their youth to focus on the rewards that winning brings (i.e. “a winning mentality”). It is something we have never had as a country. You can't teach a player how to handle pressure on the training ground. WD p.s. of course, this is all bollocks, we just need to practice penalties more on the training ground. . . . The point is though that i can agree with everything you've said about pressure and yet still be right in what i say. Taking a penalty in a big match will have no more pressure on it than holding a 5 foot putt for the Open Championship. Different players cope with pressure a lot differently, that is not up for debate. However, if you're over that 5 foot putt and the day before you have sank a thousand of them compared to the next bloke who hasn't even bothered to practice then you will be more prepared and confident to make it. You admitted that practicing will improve your technique and your success rate. That will surely effect your confidence and mentality when you are presented with the real situation. I'm not suggesting that practice is everything but i am challenging that it has no impact at all. The more you do something, the better you will get at it and the more likely you will cope having to do it under pressure. It's basic common sense really. My point is that the 2 are completely different though. Being able to take penalties in training is completely different to actual match day scenario. Practising on the training ground will make you better at taking them on the training ground. If we are talking about a player that handles pressure well then practice will no doubt help them to have a higher success rate. My argument is, if you take somebody that doesn’t handle pressure well and tends to buckle, if you take that person and stick them on the training ground for hours on end they will no doubt improve in that scenario but not in an actual game. That very same player will still have all the doubts that come with not handling pressure in the right way and all that practice will count for nothing. If the reason you are poor at penalties is a lack of confidence or stage freight on the big day, endless practice on the training ground will not help you one bit. I 100% believe that. There are examples of pro footballers who just can’t handle the pressure of penalty shootouts. I think Petit was one who used to have his tracksuit on the second the extra time whistle went. He never, ever fancied himself in that situation. The point I’m making is, if you took Petit and gave him hours of practice on the training ground taking penalties, it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference if you then threw him in on the big occasion. The nerves would overshadow anything he did on the training ground.
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Post by Beardy200 on Dec 21, 2010 12:17:44 GMT
The point is though that i can agree with everything you've said about pressure and yet still be right in what i say. Taking a penalty in a big match will have no more pressure on it than holding a 5 foot putt for the Open Championship. Different players cope with pressure a lot differently, that is not up for debate. However, if you're over that 5 foot putt and the day before you have sank a thousand of them compared to the next bloke who hasn't even bothered to practice then you will be more prepared and confident to make it. You admitted that practicing will improve your technique and your success rate. That will surely effect your confidence and mentality when you are presented with the real situation. I'm not suggesting that practice is everything but i am challenging that it has no impact at all. The more you do something, the better you will get at it and the more likely you will cope having to do it under pressure. It's basic common sense really. My point is that the 2 are completely different though. Being able to take penalties in training is completely different to actual match day scenario. Practising on the training ground will make you better at taking them on the training ground. If we are talking about a player that handles pressure well then practice will no doubt help them to have a higher success rate. My argument is, if you take somebody that doesn’t handle pressure well and tends to buckle, if you take that person and stick them on the training ground for hours on end they will no doubt improve in that scenario but not in an actual game. That very same player will still have all the doubts that come with not handling pressure in the right way and all that practice will count for nothing. If the reason you are poor at penalties is a lack of confidence or stage freight on the big day, endless practice on the training ground will not help you one bit. I 100% believe that. There are examples of pro footballers who just can’t handle the pressure of penalty shootouts. I think Petit was one who used to have his tracksuit on the second the extra time whistle went. He never, ever fancied himself in that situation. The point I’m making is, if you took Petit and gave him hours of practice on the training ground taking penalties, it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference if you then threw him in on the big occasion. The nerves would overshadow anything he did on the training ground. I completely disagree. Petit may be shit at taking penalties in pressure situations but i'm sure he would be better at it if he put in lots of practice. He may still be shit but he will be better, even if it's only marginally. If you ask Taylor or Woods why they are so good in pressure situations i can guarantee they will both tell you that the hours of practice they put in helps them to cope with it. The situations are different but they are not "completely different". Unless i'm much mistaken it still involves kicking a ball in the net passed a goalkeeper. Let's take a hypothetical situation. Imagine the same player in 2 scenarios of having to take a penalty in a big game. It's the same player so his mentality and composure are the same. In the first game he has never taken a penalty in his life. In the second he has been scoring 50 penalties a day in training for a month. I know that's taken to the nth degree but do you really believe that the one who has never taken a penalty will have as much chance of scoring?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 12:23:44 GMT
My point is that the 2 are completely different though. Being able to take penalties in training is completely different to actual match day scenario. Practising on the training ground will make you better at taking them on the training ground. If we are talking about a player that handles pressure well then practice will no doubt help them to have a higher success rate. My argument is, if you take somebody that doesn’t handle pressure well and tends to buckle, if you take that person and stick them on the training ground for hours on end they will no doubt improve in that scenario but not in an actual game. That very same player will still have all the doubts that come with not handling pressure in the right way and all that practice will count for nothing. If the reason you are poor at penalties is a lack of confidence or stage freight on the big day, endless practice on the training ground will not help you one bit. I 100% believe that. There are examples of pro footballers who just can’t handle the pressure of penalty shootouts. I think Petit was one who used to have his tracksuit on the second the extra time whistle went. He never, ever fancied himself in that situation. The point I’m making is, if you took Petit and gave him hours of practice on the training ground taking penalties, it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference if you then threw him in on the big occasion. The nerves would overshadow anything he did on the training ground. I completely disagree. Petit may be shit at taking penalties in pressure situations but i'm sure he would be better at it if he put in lots of practice. He may still be shit but he will be better, even if it's only marginally. If you ask Taylor or Woods why they are so good in pressure situations i can guarantee they will both tell you that the hours of practice they put in helps them to cope with it. The situations are different but they are not "completely different". Unless i'm much mistaken it still involves kicking a ball in the net passed a goalkeeper. Let's take a hypothetical situation. Imagine the same player in 2 scenarios of having to take a penalty in a big game. It's the same player so his mentality and composure are the same. In the first game he has never taken a penalty in his life. In the second he has been scoring 50 penalties a day in training for a month. I know that's taken to the nth degree but do you really believe that the one who has never taken a penalty will have as much chance of scoring? I agree with you. Taylor and Woods are the best in their sport. They have the talent and they have the nerve for the big occasion. They put the hours in and they see the benefit. The general point I was making, mainly regarding England and our shocking record in Peno shootouts, is that I'm 100% sure there's more to it than a lack of practice. The main thing holding us back is mentality. Lets find a middle ground and say that: - * I agree with you, if you take a player that doesn't cope well with pressure and give them plenty of practice it will make them more likely to score in a matchday scenario, however this will no doubt be overshadowed by them being unable to actually handle pressure in the first place. * In order to address our shocking record in peno shootouts it will take more than practice, it's about attitude and mentality and it is something that needs addressing from the grass roots up. We need to get away from the "it's the taking part that counts" philosophy * You are a cunt
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Post by Beardy200 on Dec 21, 2010 12:27:50 GMT
I completely disagree. Petit may be shit at taking penalties in pressure situations but i'm sure he would be better at it if he put in lots of practice. He may still be shit but he will be better, even if it's only marginally. If you ask Taylor or Woods why they are so good in pressure situations i can guarantee they will both tell you that the hours of practice they put in helps them to cope with it. The situations are different but they are not "completely different". Unless i'm much mistaken it still involves kicking a ball in the net passed a goalkeeper. Let's take a hypothetical situation. Imagine the same player in 2 scenarios of having to take a penalty in a big game. It's the same player so his mentality and composure are the same. In the first game he has never taken a penalty in his life. In the second he has been scoring 50 penalties a day in training for a month. I know that's taken to the nth degree but do you really believe that the one who has never taken a penalty will have as much chance of scoring? I agree with you. Taylor and Woods are the best in their sport. They have the talent and they have the nerve for the big occasion. They put the hours in and they see the benefit. The general point I was making, mainly regarding England and our shocking record in Peno shootouts, is that I'm 100% sure there's more to it than a lack of practice. The main thing holding us back is mentality. Lets find a middle ground and say that: - * I agree with you, if you take a player that doesn't cope well with pressure and give them plenty of practice it will make them more likely to score in a matchday scenario, however this will no doubt be overshadowed by them being unable to actually handle pressure in the first place. * In order to address our shocking record in peno shootouts it will take more than practice, it's about attitude and mentality and it is something that needs addressing from the grass roots up. We need to get away from the "it's the taking part that counts" philosophy * You are a cunt Yes let's agree on that. ;D Especially as that's what i've said all along. " I'm not suggesting that practice is everything but i am challenging that it has no impact at all. The more you do something, the better you will get at it and the more likely you will cope having to do it under pressure. It's basic common sense really."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 12:30:11 GMT
It's my own fault for looking at the bigger picture. I should learn to be more narrow and small minded at times and just look for short term solutions. Too intelligent for my own good sometimes.
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Post by Beardy200 on Dec 21, 2010 12:33:17 GMT
It's my own fault for looking at the bigger picture. I should learn to be more narrow and small minded at times and just look for short term solutions. Too intelligent for my own good sometimes. They should man up a bit, stop being such a bunch of spineless faggots and keep practicing. There. That's that sorted.
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Post by BoxxyTheLost on Dec 21, 2010 12:41:38 GMT
Surely it's about the routine that comes with practice?
Beattie has a routine that allows him to block out everything else and that's why he's got such a great record, that routine is what helps you block out the pressure. But to get the routine you need to practice.
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Post by lordb on Dec 21, 2010 13:13:19 GMT
Aidy Boothroyd asked the crowd to stay behind at the end of their 'regular season' (apologies for the Americanism) game prior to their upcoming play off games (2005 was it?). The Watford fans stayed back in their numbers & duly hollered, whsitled, booed & abused their own players as they practised a penalty shoot out. The Watford players re-created a shoot out to the extent they lined up on the half way line e.t.c.
In the event their play off games didnt go to penalties anyway however it seemed a cracking idea to me.
Next time England qualify for the World Cup or the Euro's they should do the same at Wembley in a pre-tournament friendly.
OK the pressure isnt the same but its a step up from practising in training.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Dec 21, 2010 13:32:25 GMT
Let's think about this from a non football point of view and take Rugby.
Now kicking in Rugby plays a crucial role, you're pretty much guaranteed to get at least one penalty in a match and the players whose job it is to take these practice day in day out. These players work on this over and over and over and i'd imagine that there success rate is comparative to their success in training. One extreme is Jonny Wilkinson, he used to continually practice long after the training had finished and in the end because one of the greatest kickers the game has ever seen. He wasn't bad at the rest of the game either. In this example the more these players practice the better they got.
They haven't got a goalkeeper to beat granted but then again they are kicking an over inflated egg with the aerodynamics of a fat cow. They are under pressure yet they are still very successful and this not just down to skill or bottle but practice as well.
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Post by tijuanabrass on Dec 21, 2010 21:57:11 GMT
Le Tissier got only 8 England caps and not one single goal for the senior national team. If he was such a great player and penalty taker surely he wouldn't have 'spurned' his national side at a time when they needed him most. He snubbed England by having the nerve to play for an unfashionable domestic side in red and white stripes. French dog.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 22, 2010 4:15:00 GMT
Le Tiss was spurned by several England managers....and rightly so.
England did pens after every session practiced pens at 2006 WC BUT did they practice them?
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Post by ches47 on Dec 22, 2010 19:49:33 GMT
Le Tiss at his peak should have played more games for England. The fact he didn't play for a fashionable club went against him. Where have I heard that before............
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Post by droz on Dec 22, 2010 20:59:52 GMT
Le Tiss was spurned by several England managers....and rightly so. England did pens after every session practiced pens at 2006 WC BUT did they practice them? for I'm not sure I agree with the 'and rightly so', Le Tissier could have done a fine job for England - especially considering some of those selected ahead of him.
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Post by Beardy200 on Dec 22, 2010 21:07:57 GMT
Le Tiss was a world class talent and has always been one of my favourite players to watch. Unfortunately he had a Sunday League attitude where it came to training and staying off the calories. Wasted an awful lot of his talent, which was a big shame as England are always lacking players with his skill and quality. He's always seemed happy with his lot though and always been loyal to Southampton so difficult to criticise him too much.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 23, 2010 0:36:51 GMT
Thing is nobody could ever doubt his talent. But he never knew how to contribute when he didn't have the ball at his feet. It's not that he was expected to make crashing tackles running around at 100mph, he was just expected to get behind the ball fill spaces and mark opponents. As a result, the opposition could keep the ball because they had as man over. Remember too he did play eight times for England and barely made an impression.
When Hoddle managed Chelsea he was prepared to risk the whole club to get Le Tis. The finance meant eight sell out crowds required just to fund Le Tis and Hoddle was prepared to do it. When he managed England Hoddle could use Le Tis when he wanted but rarely did so...because when push came to shove he reralised he couldn't take that risk. Hoddle used to gripe about not getting enouh England caps, since he managed Le Tis he stopped, because he understands that the managers decision has to work.
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