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Post by luke45 on Dec 13, 2009 12:16:49 GMT
Whitehead looked good when he got forward, just like he did at Blackburn, he's got himself in 3 goalscoring positions out of those two games, granted, he should've scored 1 of them, maybe 2, but I think he's certainly shown a few people he has more about him than defensive duties. He's not the long-term solution for a creative central midfielder though, I'd settle for their man yesterday, Jason Koumas.
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Post by griffoisalegend on Dec 13, 2009 12:19:10 GMT
The thing is, if we signed a player like Koumas and played him every week, the hard graft, commitment and discipline which Pulis has rebuilt the club with, will be fucked. With the quality of player we have and can get, I don't know if we could afford a bloke in midfield doing fuck all off the ball but pinging 40 yard passes when he has it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 13, 2009 12:26:02 GMT
The thing is, if we signed a player like Koumas and played him every week, the hard graft, commitment and discipline which Pulis has rebuilt the club with, will be fucked. With the quality of player we have and can get, I don't know if we could afford a bloke in midfield doing fuck all off the ball but pinging 40 yard passes when he has it. I'm inclined to agree with you WBTYM but this is exactly what makes the inclusion of Tuncay in the team such a toughy ... Undoubtedly his best position (as we saw yesterday) is playing behind the front striker, not instead of him. However if we continue to play 'Pulisball' but with Tuncs playing in the hole then we're going to end up coming a cropper against the better teams because the tactic is fundamentally built around having a big man playing in the withdrawn position. However if we're going to build our team around Tuncay playing behind Ric, then we're going to need far, far better passers of the ball in midfield than we currently have and that could very easily (as you have said) lead to us into uncharted and potentially very rocky waters.
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Post by bogus on Dec 13, 2009 12:26:10 GMT
Do you think TP might be building a team and has started from the back and is building up? Sort your defence first has always been the priority, hasn't it? What are you on about? He has been at Stoke years - how fucking long and how much money does it take? £40million and 4 years later we still can't string a pass together. But we can string results together, enough for a promotion, a 12th place finish and doing OK so far this season. Personally, I think £40 million over 18 months, to compete in this division, isn't much at all. Particularly where we started from. Do you remember 2008 when we all thought that we were only going to have 3, maybe 4, players that were going to cut it at this level? Now we have a complete squad and a bench full of players that are more than adquate replacements for those that are wearing the shirt.............instead of Pericard, Cresswell et al. Yes, I would like an all singing all dancing midfield player, too. The one that can do all the defensive work of the stoppers, but also pass and control a ball like a top player. But how much do you think these cost? Do you think that we can attract them to Stoke? Will you then be saying that we've wasted 50 or even 55 million, if they don't settle and fit in straight away? We're making progress. Last year we had a first team that was competitive and struggled when a few were missing. This year we have a full squad that is competitive. Unfortunately, that will probably not be quick enough with some of you and your fancy ideas. Bizarrely enough, if we introduce more passing and a little less solidity and started having a few bad results, you'd all be complaining about that too.
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Post by 811 on Dec 13, 2009 12:26:17 GMT
LOL at Pugsley ;D Your ignorance knows no bounds! I'll let you know about TPs entire time a6t the club in case (as I suspect) you're a newcomer When TP first joined us we were hurtling towards the third division so he made a team of dogged fighters who would drag us clear. he did brilliantly well and achieved what many felt nobody could. Then he built a side which would be capable of surviving with comfort which once again he did on a shoestring. Sadly the Icelandics who helped save the club made an enormous error in replacing TP and in came a whole host of incredibly poor players and as a result poor results. Once again TP came back and steadied the ship and this time was given the finances (but nowhere near as much as lots of our rivals) and he got us mounting a challenge to the play offs. At this point the PHWs arrived and were almost gloating about the fact he couldn't take us to the next level and would certainly never be capable of managing in the top level. Four or five PHWs debated endlessly and couldn't believe that other people couldn't see what they could see so clearly ;D Bless them! After our inevitable promotion on a comparitive shoestring the PHWs rubbed their little hands together in anticipation at the clueless manager fielding a team of out of position donkeys getting drubbed every week. Sadly for them Stoke stormed the league and ended up almost halfway. And so to the new season and the third team that TP has built, I know this might be a hard concept to grasp for one of our newer fans, but the team has been evolving and we needed a completely new team for completely new challenges under TPs tenure. PS if you still struggle understanding anything please feel free to ask What I think the OP is saying is that it hasn't evolved enough in terms of the midfield. It's excruciatingly obvious that the missing link between our great defence and great attack is at least one creative midfielder who can pass and run forward. thats spot on mate imo, we're so near yet so far, its like we have a 10 foot wall in the middle of the park most of the time and the balls is kicked over it to the forwards, like you say quality defence and with a good midfield our attack would be a lot better. also agree about lawrence aswell as a CM player. the amount of good situations we wasted yesterday by playing tuncs and fuller balls to high is not really good enough, with a good creative ball to feet midfielder we might of seen a stoke win yesterday.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 13, 2009 12:39:00 GMT
Fans help unfashionable team grind out promotion to Premiership
Fans get right behind written off team and roar them on to unexpected retention of Premiership status
Fans start to get over ambitious, slag team off and put them under pressure to achieve top half status before they're ready
Team spirit starts to suffer and team get dragged into relegation battle
Team demoted, fans desert, financial problems kick in and team struggle in Championship
And (if you're lucky) repeat.....
I thought we played pretty well against a handy looking side who played some good football. Draw was a fair result and a vast improvement over the Portsmouth game (which we shouldn't have won). Any points from the next two games will be bonus - a couple of narrow defeats and continued improvement would be great. Just need to start getting the points against our fellow relegation candidates and capitalise on our good start to the season rather than go into a Hull like free fall.
Or am I being too negative?
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Post by wuzza on Dec 13, 2009 12:39:36 GMT
Fair points Paul but I think what I am trying to say is that we simply dont have players with a great first touch (even Tuncay's lety him down a couple of times) or the ability to see a pass and as such we use players like Whitehead to maximum effect. When/if we do eventually get these players then things may change but they dont grow on trees.
I apologise for any hint of condescension but if you do not recognise that the personal abuse levelled at some players and the belittling or their abilities goes way over the top then I would be suprised. (In addition now that the absence of Tuncay is non-starter how suprising is it that the usual suspects now decide to start on TP's midfield selections - is it impossible to accept that the man knows what he is doing -shouldnt be really considering whats been achieved.)
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 13, 2009 12:49:03 GMT
Fair points Paul but I think what I am trying to say is that we simply dont have players with a great first touch (even Tuncay's lety him down a couple of times) or the ability to see a pass and as such we use players like Whitehead to maximum effect. When/if we do eventually get these players then things may change but they dont grow on trees. I apologise for any hint of condescension but if you do not recognise that the personal abuse levelled at some players and the belittling or their abilities goes way over the top then I would be suprised. (In addition now that the absence of Tuncay is non-starter how suprising is it that the usual suspects now decide to start on TP's midfield selections - is it impossible to accept that the man knows what he is doing -shouldnt be really considering whats been achieved.) To be fair to you Wuzza, on reflection, the orginal title of the thread isn't exactly balanced and I guess you were attempting to counter that somewhat. As I said earlier I've not got a problem with playing 'Pulisball' it has served us extremely well. Indeed for me, the big question (and potential worry) is whether we want to move away from this style of football and build a team around Tuncay playing in the withdrawn role or do we want to stick to what we've been good at and look for a quality replacement for Mama in January rather than a top quality passer of the ball who can feed Tuncay to feet from the centre of midfield.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 13, 2009 13:01:51 GMT
Any transition has got to be carefully managed... and again I dont think this point is lost on the management. Which to be honest is what really bugs me about the constant criticism by elements of this message board - things arent as simple as they make out and playing certain individuals effects everything we have built. Try and change everything overnight and we run the very real risk of becoming a team trying to do things we are not built for ...and suffering the consequences !
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Post by jonnynico on Dec 13, 2009 13:02:23 GMT
agree about midfield but we're supposed to have a big strong defence yet how many goals have we let in from set pieces, 2 again yesterday.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 13, 2009 13:12:06 GMT
Any transition has got to be carefully managed... and again I dont think this point is lost on the management. Which to be honest is what really bugs me about the constant criticism by elements of this message board - things arent as simple as they make out and playing certain individuals effects everything we have built. Try and change everything overnight and we run the very real risk of becoming a team trying to do things we are not built for ...and suffering the consequences ! I agree 100% that playing certain individuals can fudamentally change the way have been (successfully) set up and I've been banging on about it quite a bit recently. However I can also understand why people have been critical of some of the manager's selections recently, especially with regard to the midfield, when it can be argued that it appears to be actually playing worse than the midfield that finished last season.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 13, 2009 13:25:49 GMT
Maybe maybe. Strangely enough my preferred choice in some ways is Danny Pugh but he seems totally out of the frame. I think he gets about, puts in the odd decent pass and knows where the goal is. Dont think it will happen though.
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Post by Pugsley on Dec 13, 2009 13:44:48 GMT
What are you on about? He has been at Stoke years - how fucking long and how much money does it take? £40million and 4 years later we still can't string a pass together. LOL at Pugsley ;D Your ignorance knows no bounds! I'll let you know about TPs entire time a6t the club in case (as I suspect) you're a newcomer When TP first joined us we were hurtling towards the third division so he made a team of dogged fighters who would drag us clear. he did brilliantly well and achieved what many felt nobody could. Then he built a side which would be capable of surviving with comfort which once again he did on a shoestring. Sadly the Icelandics who helped save the club made an enormous error in replacing TP and in came a whole host of incredibly poor players and as a result poor results. Once again TP came back and steadied the ship and this time was given the finances (but nowhere near as much as lots of our rivals) and he got us mounting a challenge to the play offs. At this point the PHWs arrived and were almost gloating about the fact he couldn't take us to the next level and would certainly never be capable of managing in the top level. Four or five PHWs debated endlessly and couldn't believe that other people couldn't see what they could see so clearly ;D Bless them! After our inevitable promotion on a comparitive shoestring the PHWs rubbed their little hands together in anticipation at the clueless manager fielding a team of out of position donkeys getting drubbed every week. Sadly for them Stoke stormed the league and ended up almost halfway. And so to the new season and the third team that TP has built, I know this might be a hard concept to grasp for one of our newer fans, but the team has been evolving and we needed a completely new team for completely new challenges under TPs tenure. PS if you still struggle understanding anything please feel free to ask What a load of misty eyed claptrap fron one of the most condescending idiots to inhabit this messageboard. 28 years a Stoke fan mate so hardly a newcomer. It has to be said that a lot of Stoke fans know fuck all about football. They have it in their tiny minds, drummed into it by the Pulis rhetoric, that you can't have footballers who can both pass or run i.e work hard. I'll let you into a secret - all good footballers do both.
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Post by wuzza on Dec 13, 2009 13:49:37 GMT
and so angry for so many of them Pugsley !! Regimes have come and gone but youve been impressively consistent.
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Post by Olgrligm on Dec 13, 2009 14:54:50 GMT
I can tolerate us ending this season with Delap and Whelan in the centre of the park. Our best all-round central midfielder alongside our best attacking threat in the middle (which really isn't saying much).
I think next season will be a bridge too far for Delap and so we'll need a better quality destroyer in the side - quite possibly Arismendi. A good box-to-box player alongside him is also a must. I'm aware that we've wasted a lot of money on midfield players who simply aren't up to the job - Olofinjana, Soares, Tonge and Whitehead (decent enough game yesterday, but he's not lived up to expectations) have never looked the part.
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Post by headsgoup on Dec 13, 2009 15:13:40 GMT
and buy a proper midfield player ffs. I'll go with your back four of centre-halves, I'll even tolerate Sidibe, but jesus h christ on a bike, why can't we have someone in the middle of the park who can pass the ball? We were dominated in midfield by WIGAN. Fuck Delap off and sort it. Never happy you.
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Post by trebor63 on Dec 13, 2009 15:16:22 GMT
What a load of misty eyed claptrap
LOL again at the great football mind that is Pugsley ;D ;D ;D
So which bit was claptrap in my quick review of TPs tenure? As I said feel free to ask questions cos if you've been going to football for 28 years you're clearly not the quickest learner in the world and I'm happy to help.
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Post by sarniastokie on Dec 13, 2009 15:33:57 GMT
For me the priority in January should be a right sided midfielder. Someone with a bit of pace who can pass the ball and go past players. Then we can attack teams on both flanks and have a better balance to the team.
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Post by nathan on Dec 13, 2009 15:43:32 GMT
It has to be said that a lot of Stoke fans know fuck all about football. That's the top and bottom of it Lawrence to CM? Very funny. The system we use isn't fluid enough to play 'good' football. That's all.
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Post by icelandpotter on Dec 13, 2009 16:56:36 GMT
What a load of misty eyed claptrap LOL again at the great football mind that is Pugsley ;D ;D ;D So which bit was claptrap in my quick review of TPs tenure? As I said feel free to ask questions cos if you've been going to football for 28 years you're clearly not the quickest learner in the world and I'm happy to help. aren't you going to comment on my point about the midfield not evolving, but even going backwards? Are you purposefully trying to wind people up with the condescending attitude as it doesn't seem to be working and makes you look childish?
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Post by fromafar07 on Dec 13, 2009 17:20:24 GMT
and buy a proper midfield player ffs. I'll go with your back four of centre-halves, I'll even tolerate Sidibe, but jesus h christ on a bike, why can't we have someone in the middle of the park who can pass the ball? We were dominated in midfield by WIGAN. Fuck Delap off and sort it. a flippin men !! we have no midfield to speak of and continue to watch the vast expanse of green grass not covered by anyone in a red and white shirt.just sitting here watching Liverpool -Arsenal and am just amazed at the amount of quality play in midifeld. passing, tackling, imagination!! we dont even approach the ball until its 5 yards from the penalty box!! TP enough defenders, bring in some midfielders in january
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Post by Titan Uranus on Dec 13, 2009 20:19:07 GMT
What really worries me is that Mr Pulis thought we were "brilliant" yesterday.
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Post by Gunslinger on Dec 13, 2009 21:42:44 GMT
diao, shitehead and delap all need to be replaced. Delap was the worst player on the pitch yesterday - what the hell was he thinking when he kicked the ball up the touchline. Every team we play, top of league or bottom, win the midfield battle. Opposing teams break and get straight to our penalty area - virtually unchallenged because our midfield has retreated that far. It doesn't need much explanation as to why we've scored the least goals this season. We have capable strikers, just no creativity from midfield. Wigan, wolves, hull and portsmouth have all controlled the midfield against us. Surely the best form of defence is attack, but we need midfielders who can feed our strikers, who can string passes together, and ultimately, score goals themselves. What we don't need is 3 extra defenders, who cant score, can't pass and can't create opportunities for our strikers. Get it sorted, Pulis Amen... ;D I agree with a lot of what smokeyjoe write. The midfield is far too weak and we far too often hand the initiative to the opposing team. The result is few goals scored and putting our defensive players under heavy pressure. That's very sad, because it looks to me that we have a very solid keeper, great defenders and good strikers. I support the idea of buliding from the back, but it really is time to do something about the midfield. To use the current players in their best positions would have been a good (and inexpensive) start.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 21:55:09 GMT
[/quote] Delap is best ive seen at stoke in ages when playin in center mid then we see his quailty.. so i wouldnt get rid just play him in position[/quote]
that's ridiculous
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