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Post by Beardy200 on Nov 25, 2009 19:53:47 GMT
I wish it was as simple as I didn't want him here therefore I think he's crap. Sadly it isn't. He is the definition of anonymity. He does absolutely bugger all and he has been worse than I thought he would be. And the inclusion of Whitehead has pushed Delap on the wing, granted that is not Whitehead's fault but maybe it is why people are getting frustrated with TP. And he gets such low marks because he does nothing to warrant more. At most he gets a sore arse from sitting that deep and feel the wrath of Abdy's of sword. Maybe I'm missing the unseen things he does. ;D Don't think there is too much maybe about it mate. ;D I reckon if Lenny had been playing all this time and it had been Delap that had been dropped for Whitehead there wouldn't be all the fuss on here about Whitehead that there is, do you?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 25, 2009 20:01:56 GMT
I'd be annoyed by it! ;D I think Delap is vital to the way we play in central midfield.
I agree though most bar a few (who can see past the long throw) wouldn't be too bothered. But they would be bothered about how poor he has been.
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Post by johnsmithsupper on Nov 26, 2009 21:05:53 GMT
I am sick of this recent negativity towards our players and Whitehead in particular.
We have a good player on our hands here as soon as he is allowed to play his natural game and be the box to box midfielder i saw in the friendly game against Vallidolid.
Didnt anyone read that article on teamtalk and listen to Brammer on radio stoke where it was revealed what pulis expects from his two central midfield players i.e they remain in the "cage" and this just totally prevents them adding much by way of assistance in a creative or attacking sense.
Isnt it astonishing that the player himself says he will be given more freedom to play when "we are safe"
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Post by stokelad84 on Nov 26, 2009 21:14:32 GMT
The order of blame: Whitehead > Collins > Diao > Pulis > Anybody else
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Post by FullerMagic on Nov 26, 2009 21:22:42 GMT
What role did he play at Sunderland?
There seems to be a pattern emerging with £3m+ central midfielders being bought who, it transpires, are unfit for purpose re the cage and it's particular limitations.
It's almost impossible to imagine a bigger fish out of water than Olofinjana. And it's beginning to seem that Whitehead's role is completely alien to him as well.
Similarly, with the £10m+ spent on Tuncay and Kitson who, it transpires, are unfit for purpose in our pretty unique variant of the withdrawn striker role.
If all we want are people to do menial and ultra-disciplined dirty work in the cage, is Amdy Faye any worse? And it's clear that Delap is much, much better at it and knows exactly how to play it and has shown it in successive season run-ins.
It's quite amusing how we went from £11m for that M'Bia bloke to Whitehead in the space of a week.
How many of the 200 character-checking phonecalls that we're told TP makes, pre-signature, are about ensuring players can actually do what's expected of them week-in, week-out here?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 26, 2009 21:36:00 GMT
Amdy Faye was bloody good last season. I was as much against Faye as I am Whitehead but Faye's performances changed my mind on him. Whitehead has a long way to go to get such a turnaround.
Whitehead was a panic buy. We had signed no one, we were weeks (I think) into the window and we saw Ipswich wanted him. We panicked and we signed him. That was my theory at the time and after what he's served up so far I don't think I'm far off.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 26, 2009 21:37:44 GMT
I am sick of this recent negativity towards our players and Whitehead in particular. We have a good player on our hands here as soon as he is allowed to play his natural game and be the box to box midfielder i saw in the friendly game against Vallidolid. Didnt anyone read that article on teamtalk and listen to Brammer on radio stoke where it was revealed what pulis expects from his two central midfield players i.e they remain in the "cage" and this just totally prevents them adding much by way of assistance in a creative or attacking sense. Isnt it astonishing that the player himself says he will be given more freedom to play when "we are safe" He was very good that game and I was creaming myself with what I saw. So why the bloody hell has he gone into his shell/forced into his shell? Because when he's in his shell, he's useless.
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Post by Beardy200 on Nov 26, 2009 21:43:30 GMT
I am sick of this recent negativity towards our players and Whitehead in particular. We have a good player on our hands here as soon as he is allowed to play his natural game and be the box to box midfielder i saw in the friendly game against Vallidolid. Didnt anyone read that article on teamtalk and listen to Brammer on radio stoke where it was revealed what pulis expects from his two central midfield players i.e they remain in the "cage" and this just totally prevents them adding much by way of assistance in a creative or attacking sense. Isnt it astonishing that the player himself says he will be given more freedom to play when "we are safe" He was very good that game and I was creaming myself with what I saw. So why the bloody hell has he gone into his shell/forced into his shell? Because when he's in his shell, he's useless. Wish someone would give you a shell. ;D
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 26, 2009 21:45:29 GMT
He was very good that game and I was creaming myself with what I saw. So why the bloody hell has he gone into his shell/forced into his shell? Because when he's in his shell, he's useless. Wish someone would give you a shell. ;D Chocolate shells are fookin' gorgeous. Anyway get back to the bitching on the GDB! Is that still going on from earlier, I haven't checked?
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Post by Beardy200 on Nov 26, 2009 21:46:53 GMT
Wish someone would give you a shell. ;D Chocolate shells are fookin' gorgeous. Anyway get back to the bitching on the GDB! Is that still going on from earlier, I haven't checked? Nothing to say but
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 26, 2009 21:50:12 GMT
Chocolate shells are fookin' gorgeous. Anyway get back to the bitching on the GDB! Is that still going on from earlier, I haven't checked? Nothing to say but ;D
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 27, 2009 1:15:40 GMT
I reckon if Lenny had been playing all this time and it had been Delap that had been dropped for Whitehead there wouldn't be all the fuss on here about Whitehead that there is, do you? There are two issues though Beardy. Firstly that Whitehead's inclusion in the team has pushed (as you concede) Lenny out of the team and secondly that Rory has been far more effective in the centre of our midifeld than Whitehead has. If it was Rory who had been dropped to accommodate Whitehead in a straight 'like for like' then you can't just assume there wouldn't be a fuss about Whitehead's performances.
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Post by Beardy200 on Nov 27, 2009 1:59:52 GMT
I reckon if Lenny had been playing all this time and it had been Delap that had been dropped for Whitehead there wouldn't be all the fuss on here about Whitehead that there is, do you? There are two issues though Beardy. Firstly that Whitehead's inclusion in the team has pushed (as you concede) Lenny out of the team and secondly that Rory has been far more effective in the centre of our midifeld than Whitehead has. If it was Rory who had been dropped to accommodate Whitehead in a straight 'like for like' then you can't just assume there wouldn't be a fuss about Whitehead's performances. Not "as much" fuss i don't think there would be no. The team looks unbalanced and devoid of ideas with 3 defensive central midfielders and that's hampering all of them, including Whitehead in my opinion. If Lenny was in and the team were playing a bit more football, which we always do when he plays, then they ALL suddenly look a bit better as there's more movement on both flanks. We're picking up points pretty nicely and yet people are saying it's not the points they are upset about but the team selection and practically ALL want Lawrence playing. Pulis gets most of the stick that he isn't playing but i don't think it's unfair to "assume" a fair few posters are giving Whitehead EXTRA grief because of it aswell. In fact i'd say it's harder to assume that "everybody" would keep the two issues completely separate.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 27, 2009 2:14:02 GMT
I don't know about that mate, until Sunday Diao had been getting rave reviews.
I don't think you can just say that Whitehead would suddelnly look better with Lenny on the flank, I'm not saying he wouldn't but I'm not prepared to just jump to that conclusion.
I think it's pretty much a given that not 'everybody' will able to keep the two issues separate.
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Post by Beardy200 on Nov 27, 2009 2:21:55 GMT
I don't know about that mate, until Sunday Diao had been getting rave reviews. I don't think you can just say that Whitehead would suddelnly look better with Lenny on the flank, I'm not saying he wouldn't but I'm not prepared to just jump to that conclusion. I think it's pretty much a given that not 'everybody' will able to keep the two issues separate.Hence why i said i don't think there would be as much fuss about Whitehead if Lenny was playing. Anyway, hopefully we'll get to see what difference it makes at Blackburn. With Whitehead, Diao, Whelan, Delap or whoever he wants to play "in the middle" and Lenny gets his place back. If he doesn't and we lose i think the roof could come off this place over the weekend. ;D
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 27, 2009 2:29:54 GMT
I don't know about that mate, until Sunday Diao had been getting rave reviews. I don't think you can just say that Whitehead would suddelnly look better with Lenny on the flank, I'm not saying he wouldn't but I'm not prepared to just jump to that conclusion. I think it's pretty much a given that not 'everybody' will able to keep the two issues separate.Hence why i said i don't think there would be as much fuss about Whitehead if Lenny was playing. I was agreeing with you, it was your point about Rory being dropped for Whitehead that I took issue with. I'm not too bothered about playing three defensive midfielders away from home, I'm more concerned with Huth playing ahead of Wilko ... period! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2009 9:09:30 GMT
Whitehead was a panic buy. Beardy - You're saying he's improving for a 20 minute spell where he did a few good things. Barring that all season he's been woeful. I think it's that blind optomism again! No that's what you're saying. You're the one who gives him 4 or 5 every week if he's lucky. I've seen a little more than that but i'm not blaming Whitehead for the fact that Lawrence isn't playing and judging him accordingly. As i keep saying, i don't think he's been brilliant but i don't think he's been that bad either. None of our central midfielders are great but the idea that swapping Whitehead for Delap/Whelan is suddenly going to turn us into a different team is laughable in my opinion. As i've relentlessly said, the fact that Whitehead's inclusion by default seems to have pushed Lenny out is not Whitehead's fault and it doesn't change my view of him or his performances (i'm not so sure others can separate the two). The team is a lot harder to watch because of Rory on the wing not because of Whitehead in the middle or Whelan being missing. There's only 3 things i REALLY want and that's Ethers and Lenny on the wings and Ric up front. After that it all gets pretty cloudy for me and Pulis can do what he likes to be honest. If that means Whitehead in the middle over Delap and Whelan then it's certainly no biggy to me. At home at least though, swapping Whelan for Whitehead HAS made us look like a different team.
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Post by Beardy200 on Nov 27, 2009 9:58:09 GMT
No that's what you're saying. You're the one who gives him 4 or 5 every week if he's lucky. I've seen a little more than that but i'm not blaming Whitehead for the fact that Lawrence isn't playing and judging him accordingly. As i keep saying, i don't think he's been brilliant but i don't think he's been that bad either. None of our central midfielders are great but the idea that swapping Whitehead for Delap/Whelan is suddenly going to turn us into a different team is laughable in my opinion. As i've relentlessly said, the fact that Whitehead's inclusion by default seems to have pushed Lenny out is not Whitehead's fault and it doesn't change my view of him or his performances (i'm not so sure others can separate the two). The team is a lot harder to watch because of Rory on the wing not because of Whitehead in the middle or Whelan being missing. There's only 3 things i REALLY want and that's Ethers and Lenny on the wings and Ric up front. After that it all gets pretty cloudy for me and Pulis can do what he likes to be honest. If that means Whitehead in the middle over Delap and Whelan then it's certainly no biggy to me. At home at least though, swapping Whelan for Whitehead HAS made us look like a different team. Massively? Over how many games can we base this on where Whitehead is in the middle and both wingers are playing? Not sure it's THAT cut and dried to me YET mate. Especially when Glen's very capable of "going missing" remember.
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Post by cousindupree on Nov 27, 2009 10:28:50 GMT
The stats (results) from last season show that the line up of Lennie/Whelan/Rory/Ethers was bar some distance the most successful and arguably was a major contributor to us coasting to safety and playing our best football. This season we have started these 4 just twice 0-0 at brum and 1-0 home to Sunderland...arguably 2 of our best performances where we were in control of the games and didnt concede....so why has the manager changed all this and we haven't seen them start again?...He prefers his defensive shell and Diao in particular plays if he's half fit, throw in the fact that W'head is just about first choice and the selection continues through poor performances where few chances are created and to be honest no better defensively.....it really is a nonsense and the sooner TP spots this the better. Last season it took him till december and then only an injury to Diao to change things in midfield...last season we started with a midfield in some games of Diao/Faye/ Oli/Rory!!!!.....clealry he must have 3 defensive midfield if available and its shite
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Post by Dr Oetcake on Nov 27, 2009 11:45:52 GMT
"The Dean Whitehead Situation"? Is that a successor to The Mary Whitehouse Experience? See that useless central midfielder, that's your dad that is! ;D Of course not, its a new series of Robert Ludlum adventure films starring Matt Damon....
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Nov 27, 2009 13:14:39 GMT
I believe the style of football Pulis employs doesn't suit Whitehead, however whatever style of play is adopted you expect to see a certain level of ability from a player. And sadly that appears to be lacking from Whitehead.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2009 13:15:54 GMT
At home at least though, swapping Whelan for Whitehead HAS made us look like a different team. Massively? Over how many games can we base this on where Whitehead is in the middle and both wingers are playing? Not sure it's THAT cut and dried to me YET mate. Especially when Glen's very capable of "going missing" remember. I agree that Whelan is inconsistent but with him in the team at home we have far more thrust in midfield. Whether Whelan is disobeying orders or what but he does get forward more and get into shooting positions more.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Nov 27, 2009 13:19:23 GMT
The mere fact that Whelan shoots at goal gives makes him more likeable with the masses.
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Post by thestatusquo on Nov 27, 2009 13:38:08 GMT
For me the issue is around TP's statement that he wouldn't bring players to the club unless they were better than what we already had. I think it's more than a fair assesment to say that DW is certainly not better than we already have in that position by a fair distance !!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2009 14:23:55 GMT
It's clear he was bought because Diao has fitness / age issues and Rory is also 31, thus he provides cover at defensive midfield, with Premiership experience.
The 'things people don't see' is the fact that like all TP teams, his center mids tend to sit in front of the center backs and stop balls into the feet of the strikers. This also means that they stop the runs of attacking mids as they have no-one to play into and run off of. That's why all the ex pro pundits say it's tough to play us, because we don't let teams play through us like this. Tone allows teams to have the ball in their back 4 and wide midfielders, but never allows them any space or decent ball in central areas (hence the 1 striker sitting in).
Whitehead fits into this tactical set up. The only problem comes when our strikers can't hold the ball up when we break, as our center mids are too far back and cannot support. Hence why Mama is perfect for Stoke under Pulis...another one that some scratch their heads about.
For me, whether it's Diao, Delap or Whitehead alongside Whelan, or if it's two of those 3 but with Liam and Ethers out wide, both options make sense for the current incarnation of Stoke...depending on who we play.
What I agree will take Stoke backwards is an overly defensive team vs anyone outside the top 8, as a pedestrian slow paced midfield of Whitehead, Diao and Delap just causes more problems than it actually solves.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2009 15:17:26 GMT
It's clear he was bought because Diao has fitness / age issues and Rory is also 31, thus he provides cover at defensive midfield, with Premiership experience. The 'things people don't see' is the fact that like all TP teams, his center mids tend to sit in front of the center backs and stop balls into the feet of the strikers. This also means that they stop the runs of attacking mids as they have no-one to play into and run off of. That's why all the ex pro pundits say it's tough to play us, because we don't let teams play through us like this. Tone allows teams to have the ball in their back 4 and wide midfielders, but never allows them any space or decent ball in central areas (hence the 1 striker sitting in). Whitehead fits into this tactical set up. The only problem comes when our strikers can't hold the ball up when we break, as our center mids are too far back and cannot support. Hence why Mama is perfect for Stoke under Pulis...another one that some scratch their heads about. For me, whether it's Diao, Delap or Whitehead alongside Whelan, or if it's two of those 3 but with Liam and Ethers out wide, both options make sense for the current incarnation of Stoke...depending on who we play. What I agree will take Stoke backwards is an overly defensive team vs anyone outside the top 8, as a pedestrian slow paced midfield of Whitehead, Diao and Delap just causes more problems than it actually solves. Whitehead isn't "cover" though is he? He's a fixture in the team. Also I'm not buying this "things we don't notice" horseshit. What does he do that any of our existing central midfielders don't to warrant him being signed and to warrant him getting a game? Even the player himself said he was unaccustomed to our style of play.
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Post by salifdiao on Nov 27, 2009 15:26:30 GMT
Hence why i said i don't think there would be as much fuss about Whitehead if Lenny was playing. I was agreeing with you, it was your point about Rory being dropped for Whitehead that I took issue with. I'm not too bothered about playing three defensive midfielders away from home, I'm more concerned with Huth playing ahead of Wilko ... period! ;D I agree about Huth, why anyone would want his name on the back of their shirt i will never know....oh wait....
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 27, 2009 16:16:47 GMT
It's clear he was bought because Diao has fitness / age issues and Rory is also 31, thus he provides cover at defensive midfield, with Premiership experience. The 'things people don't see' is the fact that like all TP teams, his center mids tend to sit in front of the center backs and stop balls into the feet of the strikers. This also means that they stop the runs of attacking mids as they have no-one to play into and run off of. That's why all the ex pro pundits say it's tough to play us, because we don't let teams play through us like this. Tone allows teams to have the ball in their back 4 and wide midfielders, but never allows them any space or decent ball in central areas (hence the 1 striker sitting in). Whitehead fits into this tactical set up. The only problem comes when our strikers can't hold the ball up when we break, as our center mids are too far back and cannot support. Hence why Mama is perfect for Stoke under Pulis...another one that some scratch their heads about. For me, whether it's Diao, Delap or Whitehead alongside Whelan, or if it's two of those 3 but with Liam and Ethers out wide, both options make sense for the current incarnation of Stoke...depending on who we play. What I agree will take Stoke backwards is an overly defensive team vs anyone outside the top 8, as a pedestrian slow paced midfield of Whitehead, Diao and Delap just causes more problems than it actually solves. Rory and Diao get stuck in, Whitehead doesn't. And Whitehead and Whelan can't play together.
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Post by alster on Nov 27, 2009 16:21:02 GMT
Whitehead is poor he's been poor for us and looked poor playinf for Sunderland. Trouble is central midfielders generally look poor in a Pulis side.
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Post by yorkshirestokie on Nov 27, 2009 16:36:52 GMT
he's a good player but now cressers isnt in the picture people need someone else to moan about. if its not him its collins or even pulis.
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