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Post by vestanpance on Jan 28, 2009 12:26:44 GMT
To be honest this probably isn't the best time to be reflecting on where we are this season, but as someone whose never fully been in the Pulis camp, this season is starting to grate more than a little, and i suspect i'm not the only one. I wholeheartedly agree that it is virtually impossible to stay up in your first season in the Premier League, the only exceptions have been either flushed with cash (Sunderland) or had a team that only required minor surgery in order to give them a fighting chance (West Ham, Reading). We are ostensibly neither, though the way in which Pulis has thrown money about you'd think we were firmly in the former. There are a significant percentage of people who use this board who steadfastly back Tony Pulis despite any errors in judgement he might make, and you know what? I admire them completely. I don't think he realises just how fortunate he is to have such a relative minority of supporters cast aspersions on his decision making, with the majority seemingly happy with his choices and prepared to back him totally. Sadly for me, i'm just not one of them. Let's start looking at some cold hard facts. We've not come up as a money making excercise, obtaining cash to further develop the club with a view to using it as a platform, the chairman has given the manager the full extent of his financial backing, with seemingly no amount of money, no length of contract beyond the pale. For this faith Coates has to be admired hugely, especially given the sheer desperation at times with which the manager has entered the transfer market. Olofinjana, Tonge & Soares, whilst all being good footballers without question, have never been given an opportunity in the first team of any great length, their places instead being allocate to Rory Delap (a right back with a long throw), and Salif Diao, a man whose injuries have curtailed his considerable talent to the extent he is now incapable of getting outside the centre circle. Apparently, he's our best midfielder "by a mile" though. Go figure. Sonko was a purchase that left me totally cold, we have a superb central defensive partnership in a brilliant old campaigner and the young England International, yet constantly he looks to bring in Central Defenders who can "do a job" at full back, including the ever willing Danny Higginbotham and Andrew Davies, whom i can only presume had a medical at Stoke performed by Dr Nick off the fucking Simpsons, because he's clearly not a well boy. We now have a fantastic option up front, three strikers all capable of weighing in for different reasons, Kitson is clever and feeds off quality crosses, Beattie is a battering ram of a footballer who can score from anywhere and Fuller is a player that can change a game from anywhere on the pitch, yet who plays up front? Richard fucking Cresswell, a man who the nicest thing you can say about him is that he works hard. Well, Ilford Dave probably works hard but i've no desperate desire to see him up front for Stoke City either. In fact, i would go as far as to say to only thing that supercedes Pulis' bewilderingly scattertgun approach to transfers is his selection policy. Liam Lawrence was an integral part of our promotion season, a player unquestionably capable of changing a game and a man who seems to genuinely care for the club, yet he is left out when we are crying out for a bit of creativity. We have accrued three fucking points all season away, for christs sake, we might as well go and have a fucking go at somebody, what's the worst that can happen? But of all the bugbears i'm currently exorcising, i've not got down to the good one yet. His transfer policy, though wayward, has brought players to the club who will either serve us well in the future (if given chance) or will be sold for comparative money, which means effectively we won't go to financial rack and ruin like other sides have when they have been relegated. For that reason, i'd give him some latitude. His selection policy, though frankly deranged to me, is his decfision. He is the manager of Stoke City and rightly or wrongly the buck stops with him and he will continue to do what he believes is in the best interests of the club. He clearly has his favourites in Cresswell, Diao & Delap, but most managers are like that and as annoying and bewildering as it might be to us, we have to put up with it. So what (if you are still reading this ) annoys me the most? Let me tell you. Tottenham Hotspur hadn't won a game in 7 in the league, they'd been outflanked at Burnley which forced them into extra time and at Old Trafford they looked fucking completely disinterested. In the last 7 days the manager has openly come in for criticism over his handling of the players and Redknapp himself stated there were only 5 players there he can trust. In short, this is a club in a bit of shit. So let's see how TP goes about his business shall we? Well, as ever, he fucking crawls up their arses, telling the world (including his own players) how fucking brilliant Spurs are (really Tone?) whilst reminding everyone we are the equivalent of Battersea Dogs Home, when in fact he is in charge of International Footballers earning millions of fucking pounds a year that he has spent millions of pounds of other peoples money to recruit. Every fucking game we are involved in, his mental approach to games is laughable and it pisses me off immensely. We should have played Lawrence & Kitson/Fuller from the start yesterday and really had a fucking go at them, tested their resolve and passion for Spurs be seeing what they are made of, instead we sit off them and let them play. Well if you let good sides play football, they fucking batter you Tony, and that's why we keep losing away. With every passing game you see why he just isn't tailored for this standard of football...his tactics are neanderthal, his rhetoric seems to be designed around convincing our players they are not as good as the ones they are about to encounter and his transfer policy remains to me a total mystery and could well be the reason we see little more activity in January. Well, would you trust him with your money now? This isn't a thinly veiled attack on Pulis, those who post regularly know that what he did in the binary season i found unforgiveable and whilst being open enough to admit to being as two-faced as everyone else when things are going well, i'm afraid the simmering resentment i have for Pulis returns like an unslakeable thirst during the tougher times. He deserves the season to see what happens but the facts as i see them are that we are going to be relegated, and should this happen, i hope he looks at the moeny he has spent, the rhetoric he has spoken and the tactics he has employed and does the decent thing. Sorry it's so long. And for the inevitable spelling mistakes
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 12:32:13 GMT
I’m not reading all that Ted Vestan, but I said the same thing to my old man last night. It’s not so much losing I hate, its being embarrassed by average teams.
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Post by Peters Pipe on Jan 28, 2009 12:35:41 GMT
Nothing in there I don't agree with VP. Good post mate.
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Post by stokemark on Jan 28, 2009 12:36:30 GMT
Some valid points (many infact)
I still think that in this league you do need to build a team around a strong midfield - As TP is an advocate of bypassing this area as much as possible then I think THAT will be his single biggest error - Too many 2 bob midfielders
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steino
Academy Starlet
Posts: 119
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Post by steino on Jan 28, 2009 12:37:54 GMT
Great post mate, agree with pretty much everything there.
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Post by ted1965 on Jan 28, 2009 12:38:07 GMT
Good post Ventan Pance hard to argue with it, my own thoughts for what they are worth.
It’s been a great adventure and it’s far from over but sadly it’s turning into a real slog of endurance since about November, yes a few bright interludes but overall it’s been pretty hard going. That was to be expected after so long away from the top flight but there has to be more than we are showing at the moment.
The abject surrender away from home on more than one occasion is what many find so unacceptable, now I don‘t mean players going out and laying down I am talking about how we approach games. The lack of intent to win games is becoming embarrassing and whatever people think of the manager it’s down to his tactics and team selections. It seems no matter how many times the same scenario plays out before him, he just shrugs his shoulders, bemoans our luck or simply says we need to look at how we play and improve it. Then come the next game he plays exactly the same players despite some of them simply not being good enough at this level. While we have some very good players we don’t have enough of them, yes I am sure every side in the country outside of a few feel the same but we have spent a lot of money on basically the same player of differing abilities this season.
If you look at the side piece by piece we are a lopsided puzzle with certain pieces rammed into positions simply because the manager seems to favour certain players. We have a top class keeper, he’s really shown his commitment and his ability all season and bar a few errors which all keepers will make, they just look worse because when a keeper makes an error it usually costs the team a goal but thankfully Tommy has been magnificent and certainly better than either keeper we were willing to pay large amounts of money for.
As for the defence well if you take Ab Faye from it we’re still short of what is required by a distance at this level. Shawcross has really improved and looks like he will be a top player in years to come and hopefully at Stoke. Though the rest well Higginbotham is not a left back, he’s a solid central defender and that’s undoubtedly his best position, Sonko well least said about him the better not sure what his best position is but the further away from the field the better for me. Cort is a solid Championship player, Davies is a central defender being groomed for a right back slot, Wilkinson is a decent lad but still learning same for Dickinson, that leaves Griffin while he’s done a lot better than expected he still lacks pace and so defensively we still don’t have a settled back four which is a must if you’re to survive, we need a full back who actually plays there regularly and not ones who are simply accommodated in the side. So overall we have one top quality defender, a couple of enthusiastic younger players, a central defender played out of position and the rest are not really Premiership quality game in game out. As with all other departments of the side we have to many pieces that don’t actually fit into the puzzle, jacks of many trades and sadly masters in none.
The midfield is the engine room of any good side and it’s here you require all the elements or you simply have a misfiring vehicle that simply can’t adequately cope with its duties. We have so many defensive minded central midfielders it’s almost laughable, how many does one manager require most will have two, one to play and one to replace him should he lose form or get injured or suspended, we on the other hand have enough to field two midfields. Salif, Oli, Am Faye. Whelan even Sonko can do that job so we believe yet where is the creativity we have so many players in that area who do the same job with varying degrees of efficiency. The wide areas are even more concerning, Etherington looks good and I would like to see someone with his ability on the right more often, Liam is seems is totally out of favour for whatever reason, Rory while having a good season for the most part still lacks pace and while the throw gave sides nightmares early on it’s become less effective and then you have to ask what he brings to the side week in week out in that position. Soares and Tonge are obviously out of the reckoning for first team places at the moment and therefore we have a midfield that is functional, hard working but slow. The problems really arise when they sit off the opposition then it becomes even more obvious that we lack real quality in the middle of the park.
The forwards, thankfully Beatie looks what he is a player who has performed well at this level in the past. Fuller, well he’s an enigma so talented but so temperamental but we can’t afford to lose his impact at this moment in time. We know Mamma is injured but again our reliance on a player who scores very few goals overall is still disturbing, taking nothing away from the big man he’s been immense this season but the failure to adapt our style since his loss is baffling. Kitson has simply found it impossible to adapt to how we play, he’s a forward who needs to be right up top, not a link player he was bought to score goals and yet immediately blunted by playing him in the hole. I am not sure where to include Cresswell, he works hard, he gives his all for the club but sadly it’s not enough when you’re in a battle, you need players playing in their natural positions and that means we need full backs who are just that, a midfield that has some pace, creativity and of course that element of defensive minded player who can protect the back four. It also means a side that has two players up front who carry a goal threat and who play long enough together to form an understanding.
It’s a sad reflection for me that we have come so far and still have so much left to do as far as team building goes, I really hope the next few days will see something totally different in terms of the type of players coming into the club sadly I doubt it and that could spell the end of this roller coaster adventure we have been on since last May.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 12:39:19 GMT
I have now read it all Vestan and I concur mate.
I have always been in the Pro-Pulis camp but I’m struggling recently, I really am.
His persistence with Creswell over players he’s spent millions on is unbelievable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 12:41:24 GMT
Sums up our season away from home.
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Post by cousindupree on Jan 28, 2009 12:41:47 GMT
The main point you make is the key one...its not losing at Spurs who wont be in the relegation shake up or the fact we have mustered one point from games in January. Its the manner of the approach to the game and the performance. As you say Spurs had just come off the back of tough cup games and we had spent 10 days on the beach. We should have been raring to get back into a game against a team who are vulnerable.We didnt we picked a holding team handed the initiative to Spurs who couldn't believe their luck and started the game like we were still on the beach...3 golas down after 25 minutes says the team wasn't prepared well enough. Its poor management but its not the first time we have seen this type of performance....Blackburn, Mancity, Portsmouth spring to mind.
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Post by Davef on Jan 28, 2009 12:41:54 GMT
We're Stokies and we're used to seeing our team losing, but like you say, it's the manner in which we go about things that sees us losing games like this that grates.
I challenge anyone to name a Premier League manager who had they got Ricardo Fuller, Dave Kitson and Liam Lawrence among players at his disposal would've picked that starting eleven last night.
I'll bet Harry Redknapp knocked one off when he was handed our team sheet.
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Post by vestanpance on Jan 28, 2009 12:44:32 GMT
For my part, i believe that he has bought decent players WD, which makes the dicision not play them even more insufferable. If he'd been led down the garden path with one or two á lá Sparky @ Man City, fair play, don't play them then fuck em off, but it seems to me they are all good lads, they have just either never had a go or the "style" we have adopted is unsuitable. Seriously, if you were Joe Ledley, would you come here? Ted, it seems we are on the same page as per usual, though your eloquence makes yours easier reading
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Post by mermaidsal on Jan 28, 2009 12:45:01 GMT
Crikey, two Victorian novels in a single thread! ;D
I agree with most of what you're both saying. What keeps repeating on me about last night is the sheer bloody FEEBLENESS of the way we started. And the way Tone seems incapable of correcting basics, it was just a repeat of Bolton and Blackburn at the start. It's like we've learned nothing - but that happens only 10 days after Chelsea and believing we can almost, almost live with the best.
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Post by MrMagic on Jan 28, 2009 12:46:12 GMT
Bang on VP - totally echoes my feelings
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Post by spitthedog on Jan 28, 2009 12:48:39 GMT
team selection last night suggests one of 2 things about the manager
1. he didn't want to upset his mate 'Arry or 2. he is totally out of his depth
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 12:50:35 GMT
It’s not very often this many people agree with Vestan.
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Post by smapples on Jan 28, 2009 12:52:51 GMT
Vestan and Ted, like you said the majority of our midfield cant hold the ball, Im not asking for tippy tappy brazil but if a player just held it whilst other players got into a decent position we would be laughing.
Our defense arent brilliant but they are constantly being tested which gives the impression they are worse than they are. We need Liam back, pronto.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 28, 2009 12:54:03 GMT
Obviously we should be having a go at teams we have a chance of beating away from home. Unfortunately I don't think Spurs, with the way they played last night, fall into this group. Modric looked crap at the Brit. Really lightweight and we just managed to ease him off the ball whenever he had it. He seems to have got up to speed with the English game now and last night we couldn't get anywhere near him (although we did seem to be playing without a midfield). Defoe is back in for them and looked good, Pavluychenko is starting to show what he's about, and if Lennon could cross better he'd be a genuine world class winger. Plus Bale wasn't on the field, and I doubt he'll be on it much for the rest of the season. In short we were beaten last night by a much better team - look at the 2nd goal, it was proper class.
I agree with you that spurs were on the rack and we should have been set up to attack them last night. Unfortunately I think the likely outcome would have been a proper drubbing for us.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 28, 2009 12:54:19 GMT
Sums up our season away from home. Nice one, Vestan.Are you releasing it in hardback? Maybe he's stuck in some kind of bizarre Groundhog Day-type scenario? Every away-day begins in a state of optimism with a 6am Dicky Cresswell cover of 'I've got you, Babe' - but unlike Bill Murray, he's not gradually changing and is doomed to spend eternity (or until May at least) trapped and increasingly confused.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 28, 2009 12:54:31 GMT
I challenge anyone to name a Premier League manager who had they got Ricardo Fuller, Dave Kitson and Liam Lawrence among players at his disposal would've picked that starting eleven last night. I'm not defending him but there is another one, Benitez did something similarly idiotic a couple of weeks back.
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Post by Davef on Jan 28, 2009 12:59:43 GMT
Even Benitez wouldn't have picked that side last night, but it's a fair point Sheikh. Look where his negativity got Liverpool as well.
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Post by vestanpance on Jan 28, 2009 13:02:35 GMT
Sorry mate. My bad Timmy, Spurs might have been good last night, but what might have happened if we had gone one up? We just turned up and were one big morale boost for them last night, and if you don't have a go, then you'll never know. We cannot lose anything more than we currently are can we? Just one win would have matched the point stally we currently have. We might as well have a pop don't you reckon? As smapples said, our defence is being asked too many questions too often by some of the best attacking options in the world...i simply cannot see how we could lose by employing a differing tactic just once perhaps? Momo, whilst i wholeheartedly accept your point and it is totally valid, there's a fucking world of difference between Ryan Babel & Richard Cresswell
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Post by rabbigan on Jan 28, 2009 13:06:55 GMT
Vestan and Ted, Two excellent, thoughtful contributions. My own concerns mirror points which you have both raised but I have to add my greater concern is the lack of understanding of what is needed and the managers inability to overcome his negative thinking. 1. Bigging up the opposition- Pre match everybody is better than us. 2. Absolute lack of belligerence and attack away from home. 3. Not knowing what is needed defensively midfield and up front. 4. Apparent belief of Cresswells suitability for any role in the team ahead of players specialised in such positions. 5. How can you start a game last night with Cresswell in front of Kitson and Fuller if your intent is to win. 6. The manager complains we start slow away from home but it is absolutely obvious that the instructions to the team are just try and keep it tight for half an hour and not to come flying out of the blocks and try and get something ourselves. 7. He did actually say last night that "away from home we MIGHT have to try something a bit different." 8. I have now reached a stage of such frustration that if Radio Stoke inform me before the match on Saturday that Cresswell starts I may just turn around and go home, because it so describes the whole ethos of negativity that surrounds the team.
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Post by Timmypotter on Jan 28, 2009 13:07:45 GMT
No, I agree Vestan that we should be having a go. As you say, what happens if we go one up.
Then again, we went to Stamford Bridge with 11 men behind the ball and nearly sneaked a cheeky win, so who's to say what the correct approach is. I guess it should be based on the perceived threat posed by the opposition. With the run Spurs were on, this should have meant us getting right up em. I don't think the outcome would have been any different though.
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Post by eriksson74 on Jan 28, 2009 13:07:53 GMT
Can't argue with any of that Vesten, absolutely spot on.
Too many times away from home we have had a good opportunity to get something, only to set ourselves up as charity and help the opposition out.
Last night was just another feather in the cap of missed opportunities. Man City had lost 4 on the bounce at home before we went there, Portsmouth had been playing at midnight on the Thursday before flying back from Portugal, West Ham hadn't won at home since September, Blackburn hadn't kept a clean sheet in god knows how long and Hartleppol had been thumped at home by Crewe the previos week.
In each and every game, we concced possesion and space and try to hang on for dear life for a draw gradully getting deeper and deeper until we defend on the goal line and conceed.
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Post by Danstoke82 on Jan 28, 2009 13:10:32 GMT
Excellent post Vestan, it covered everything that is biting at me too!
Top notch.
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Post by Northy on Jan 28, 2009 13:12:53 GMT
VP and Ted, I've read both of your posts fully and it's something I agree witrh, I am of the same ilk as you VP, never really liked TP and his style and the way he talks about others, I personally think we have the players to keep us up, but can they be used wisely and sensibly
and as davef said I'll bet Harry Redknapp knocked one off when he was handed our team sheet. I bet his saggy cheeks were flapping to the dozen and his eyes wide open with disbelief, you can just imagine his team talk, "hey lads" they've left Fuller, Lawrence and Kitson on the bench, deal with the long throws and hign balls like we have worked on, push the back line up high and tear them apart with width and pace
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Post by vestanpance on Jan 28, 2009 13:13:50 GMT
Timmy, I'm afraid whilst i see your point mate, i cannot agree.
We could easily have lost seven or eight at Chelsea, it was due to good fortune and brilliant goalkeeping that we didn't, not some tactical or defensive genius. Have you seen the number of goals we concede away from home in the last 5 minutes, and not just in the Premier League?
It's not coincidence, or bad luck. As it was at Chelsea, it was just a matter of time.
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Post by lordb on Jan 28, 2009 13:13:56 GMT
we very nearly DID go 1 up,Ryan's header off the line after 5 ins on another night goes in & its a diff't game.
Ollie has had plenty of games & been very poor
I didnt think we were that bad last night,Spurs played very well - Modric was superb
Spurs have been the best & worst side I have seen this season (I didnt see Man City)
we've played worse & won this season (WBA).
Sorenson comands the area very well vast majority of games & as exposed as he was for the 1st goal a nimbler keeper would have got down to Lennons shot. harsh maybe but there you go.
that gave them a HUGE boost
just my opinion anyway
reckon we will win on saturday
lots more defeats to come & wins too
its Stoke its never going to go to plan is it?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 13:14:30 GMT
Pulis' problem is loyalty. (After the first 20 minutes) I really hoped that we would get properly spanked last night, then TP could finally drop the lads who "have played well enough to deserve another chance". Think back, Pulis always does this, he sticks with a player(s) until they do something unforgiveable, and then - if he has a worthwhile replacement - he ships em off to Coventry. I reckon last night will mean the return of Griff (cos there is, currently, no one else capable of playing RB) for Wilko (who had probably his worst game of the season) and of Fuller for Cresser (who missed at least one good chance). Not that this will make everything right with the world. It will never be right with TP. TP needs his Mama (or Gifton) to be able to have any sort of chance of his tactics working correctly. I conner see Beattie pulling up any trees in that role, but then few players (Heskey, Kenny Jones) do. As with last season, and the season before that: No Mama, no win. But hey, maybe TP will shock us all on Satdee and start with Fuller & Beattie with Lenny and Ethers on either flank. You'd certainly get good odds, if you could bet on the starting line up. Now 23 games into the season, we are just about where we all thought we would be (though some people were forecasting 24 points or less). And just as the manner of our promotion did not matter, nor should the manner of our attempt at staying up. Yesterday we were outclassed, by a team who could play at bit of football, and who finally had a goalkeeper between the posts. Man City was no different, or the other set of Mancs (away) either. And those won't be the only times. People must have short memories if they have forgotten the old adage which says: "If you are on a bad run, you want Stoke to be turning up" ah
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 13:14:41 GMT
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is more like a vestan post ;D
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