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Post by bunnyscfc on Dec 13, 2008 21:36:33 GMT
Due to a mates' illness, I was at in row 2 of block 30 today right on the halfway line, and not in my usual block 23 spot.
You get a whole new perspective on the game from there (although I prefer the noise and view from B23) and today really opened my eyes.
1. Trouserdog's post on his thread I feel is spot-on. We have a real lack of quality, and whilst Fulham didn't really threaten us, I felt that their keep-ball and Johnson playing on the shoulder of the last man, would be the eventual winner if there was to be one. In the end, Messrs Bullard and Murphy seemed to prefer playing in their own half to ours and Woy Hodgson's men seemed happy for a point.
2. Today was defo a pont gained. We didn't show at all, and when that happens you take what you can. In 33 years of watching Stoke, we've lost hundreds of these types of games 0-1.
3. I'm not Whelan's biggest fan, but he was the only midfielder trying to play football today. Amdy Faye was way, way off the pace for me, and our two wide players are not wide players. Rory Delap msut play in the middle of midfield...
4. Or, today he could have playe right back and put Tonge on in midfield. On the ball I though Wilko was shocking. Ok defensively, but was he being spnsored to kick it out for throw ins and goal kicks? Don't think he's ever going to be anything more than a half-decent CCC player at best, along with Dicko.
5. The lack of noise from the crowd was quite eerie at times. We only came alive when that plum of a right back acted up, and when Mr Atwell gace decisions. Sorry, but we're nowhere near as good vocally as some think we are. I'm sure we'll raise the roof for Man Ure, Arse etc, but this season is all about games like today - the bread and butter where we have to show what we're made of. Very poor vocally today, and a frightening lack of new songs too.
6. The two centre halves were excellent, as usual.
7. Look at Johnson's movement - it was outstanding. If their midfiueld had bothered to look forwards rather than sideways and backwards, then we'd have been in trouble.
8. Fulham are a better version of West Brom and yet we didn't bully them at all. A point gained, but 3 for the taking.
9. It's quite astounding just how far from our front two our midfield is. 20 points is superb, but I'm looking at the fixtures after next week and I can see us having a very testing January. We need to win at Blackburn to give us breathing space.
10. I'll hold my hands up here - I've never been Mama's biggest fan. But with the squad we have at the moment he must be third name down after Ric and Ab Faye. If we lose him for any length of time I'd seriously think about spending over the odds for a player whois just in his mould and offers us a bigger goal threat - Kevin Davies. I feel this lad is tailor made for how we play. If we spent £5m on Kitson then I'd possibly do the same on Davies and take a loss on Kitson.
I love how ths eason has gone, but have genuine worries that we will need 42-45 points to stay up this season. West Brom are a write off and I can see us in a real dogfight with a few others come May.
We need to retain possession and get some pace in the team from somewhere, as a decent team would have hammered us today, but Fulham were quite content with 0-0.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 13, 2008 21:44:01 GMT
Harsh on Amdy bunny, who from my position in block 30, was the only 1 of our 4 midfield players to contribute anything to the game.
Whelan hid for me, never making himself available for the easy ball from the full-backs.
Tommy, Ab Faye, Amdy Faye and an excellent outing from Sonko were the only positives from today...and the point, which was comfortably gained in all honesty.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Dec 13, 2008 21:47:22 GMT
I thought Amdy had a decent game. Whilst I thought Whelan was playing some decent football I thought he played too far back and should have left the holding role to Amdy. Whether that was down to TP or to Whelan I don't know. To be honest, although Whelan is no winger, given our starting line up, I'd have been tempted to move Delap into centre mid and Whelan out to the right wing. We don't half miss Lawrence for his crosses although Whelan's corners were fine - just not enough of them!
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Post by mark71 on Dec 13, 2008 21:51:13 GMT
Great post, I think you've got most things covered but I'll add a couple of my own. Fuller, At times he's superb, others he wants a good kick up the arse. Today he needed a kick, I'm getting quite fed up of him in the last few weeks. I'll disagree about Kitson I think when we get a couple of quality wide men in January we'll see the real Dave Kitson. Fulham have played in the prem for about 7 seasons now the players you've mentioned were superb but we've not been out played today. Hopefully super Tony can get some jems in the January window and then get the players needed to push for a European place next season
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Post by potters11 on Dec 13, 2008 21:51:49 GMT
Firstly, Am.Faye was a strong contender for man of the match, personally speaking Bunny I think you called that one wrong.
Secondly, Tonge won't start games regularly for Stoke, so there is no point harping on about that one.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Dec 13, 2008 22:01:10 GMT
I'll take the AM Faye stuff on board - we see things differently, and must admit, it was strange watching from pitchside level.
Also, re Whelan: I want to see himn do what Bullard did today - make himself avaialble for every ball. I felt Bullard was poor as he often received the ball and looked sideways firstly, but at least he got on the ball. Whelan knows how we play and needs to 'offer himself' a bit more.
Big difference? Their 2 full backs are 'out' balls for them. Bullards and Murphy passed to Konchesky and that cheating plum at right back any number of times. Our 2 full backs offered nothing going fowards today, and when they did get it, simnply iced the puck!
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Post by davejohnno1 on Dec 13, 2008 22:07:07 GMT
Can't disagree about the quality of full-back bunny, but I thought Bullard was pretty good and played some real good balls which fortunately came to nothing. He also orchestrated one fabulous move when he himself should have scored really.
Whelan didn't do it for me today, which is a disappointment after his excellent outing at Newcastle.
Getting better service into our forward players, especially to Rikki is going to be the big KEY to the second half of the season for us.
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Post by Trouserdog on Dec 13, 2008 22:07:55 GMT
Generally I tend to agree with most stuff Bunny posts, but like a few others have done, I'll also have to disagree on the Amdy Faye point...apart from maybe the Villa game, I thought today was his best performance for us. Nothing flashy or stand-out, just a lot of sensible passing, good tackling and all-round pestering of Fulham's midfield.
pound-for-pound there's very little to choose between Diao and Amdy Faye, so whoever wins the right to keep the shirt should have it at the expense of the other IMO.
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Post by serpico on Dec 13, 2008 22:09:22 GMT
I thought Amdy had a decent game. Whilst I thought Whelan was playing some decent football I thought he played too far back and should have left the holding role to Amdy. Whether that was down to TP or to Whelan I don't know. It's TP, i know this because Dom Matteo let the cat out of the bag on radio stoke today, he stated that the two central midfield players are under instructions to stay back and not to venture to far forward.
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Post by Olgrligm on Dec 13, 2008 22:11:36 GMT
Regarding Faye and Diao, I don't remember either of them having a bad game, even when playing together. It's just the nature of the partnership.
If the midfielders weren't instructed to stay back, would Whelan magically become Zidane?
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Post by serpico on Dec 13, 2008 22:14:15 GMT
Regarding Faye and Diao, I don't remember either of them having a bad game, even when playing together. It's just the nature of the partnership. If the midfielders weren't instructed to stay back, would Whelan magically become Zidane? No, but we might be able to keep the ball in the oppositions half for longer than a couple of seconds at a time before it come straight back at us ???
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Post by ohcityweloveyou on Dec 13, 2008 22:17:48 GMT
Completely agree with everything you said
it would be nice too see tonge saores and whelan all starting the creative threat would be much higher
Were a team of bruisers and hard tacklers maybe we have too many in the starting line up amdy faye is nothing compared to Diao and they dont work when they are played together so i think he should be on the bench
and to be perfectlly honest the crowd is not going to be as loud when their fans arent singing or they have knowone to sing at i know they are trying get behind the boys but 700 odd fulham fans isnt goin inspire us!
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Post by bunnyscfc on Dec 13, 2008 22:59:03 GMT
I don't see why the amnount of away fans has that much effect on us tbh.
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Post by interestedobserver on Dec 13, 2008 23:41:01 GMT
Good write up, but I would just like to point out how unlikely it is (mathematically) that 45 points would be requried for safety.
Taking a look at the current table, almost exactly 40% of games this year have ended in a draw.
Let's say that draws decrease over the rest of the season and at the end only 35% of games will have ended in a draw. That would put a total of 1007 points in the table.
If the points were spread as evenly as possible, there would be seven teams with 51 points and 13 teams with 50 points. So 50 points would be in the drop zone.
Now, we can push the number a bit higher if we assume that WBA and Blackburn both achieve the minimum for the rest of the year (one point each) and finish with 27 points between them.
That would leave 980 points between the other 18 teams.
The table would look like this
55 (8 teams) 54 (10 teams) 14 Blackburn 13 WBA
OK But we know that there will be some teams that pull away toward the top of the table. Making conservative estimates, let's say the top 6 teams finish like this
80 75 75 70 60 55
That would leave 565 points to be divided by the remaining teams. So the table would look like this
80 75 75 70 60 55 48 47 (11 teams) 14 13
We can also feel pretty certain in saying that Blackburn and WBA will take some points along the way. Let's say they get 25 points between them. That would leave 540 points for the remaining 12 teams.
So the table would look like this:
80 75 75 70 60 55 45 (12 teams) 26 26
But we know that there won't be a twelve way tie for seventh place at the end of the season and the table only has a finite number of points. So it would take a real alignment of the planets for a team with 45 or even 44 points to be relegated. It's remotely possible, I guess, that a team with 43 points could be sent down. But even that would require a huge bunch finish.
I think it probably is right to think that it will take more than the 35 or 36 that has done the trick in lot of years. But if we get relegated on 41 points, I'll eat my hat.
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Post by slangking on Dec 13, 2008 23:53:56 GMT
45 points is just laughable, insane. It just smacks of someone looking to find an excuse to moan about us having 20 points.
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Post by bogus on Dec 14, 2008 0:10:36 GMT
We need more from the wide players. Pulis always looks for his two wide players to support the forwards, the middle two to mostly sit. Delap and Pugh offered us virtually nothing today. Can you recall a decent cross? I really hope Lawrence is fit soon, and another one similar on the left wouldn't go amiss.
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Post by sheikh al dubai bin stokie on Dec 14, 2008 5:41:47 GMT
Re. Whelan, watching the game on tv today, I felt that he did play some good stuff, but he was too deep... i wasnt that happy with him tbh
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Post by AlJolson on Dec 14, 2008 6:54:37 GMT
Good write up, but I would just like to point out how unlikely it is (mathematically) that 45 points would be requried for safety. snip.... I think it probably is right to think that it will take more than the 35 or 36 that has done the trick in lot of years. But if we get relegated on 41 points, I'll eat my hat. Ok so you get 2 places sewn up by Brazil and Blackburn. All you need is the next two clubs to win 2 more games surpassing the 41 or so points target we expect them to get and it then throws everything out. Basically the season could hinge on 2 or three teams gaining a couple of lucky wins each. Blackburn could appoint Big Sam or indeed anyone and witness new manager honeymoon syndrome and start to fly. This season will see a club go down with the most points ever. imho.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Dec 14, 2008 10:20:42 GMT
"It just smacks of someone looking to find an excuse to moan about us having 20 points."
Why the hell woud anyone moan about us having that many points? I never believed we'dbe 13th, but we are in a relegation battle and so must prepare for our own patch that Blackburn are going throgh at the moment.
There has been a lot of strange ersults this year, and there's usually 5-6 a bit adrift by now in a mini league. This year that number has doubled and I feel the points reqired to stay up will be higher than normal.
Where is the moan in that? <rhetorical question>
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Post by slangking on Dec 14, 2008 10:32:29 GMT
Try to think logically, the league has been fairly even up to now and the team out of the relegation position will have 18 points from 17 games, this is 1.05 per game x 38 this equals about 40 points IF the league continues to be as even. 40-41 points will be enough, quote me on that.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Dec 14, 2008 10:38:05 GMT
you might be right, but football isn't an excat science. We might both be wrong and need just 35, but from what I've seen, there are a lot of mediocre teams this year who will all accumulate points steadily.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 15, 2008 2:07:28 GMT
As it stands (15.12.08), using your logic slangking, a team on 40 points WILL be in the bottom three come the end of the season.
Not saying that 40 points wont be enough this term, but I don't really understand why you are so eager to jump down Bunny's throat when he was obviously just trying to point out that the bar is very likely to be higher than that which we would normally see.
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Post by mcf on Dec 15, 2008 7:16:55 GMT
They flooded the midfield with 451. Of course they would be able to knock the ball around all day in midfield.
Did they even create a chance inside the box? Not really.
Andy Johnson is an excellent player but he was totally up against it with no other forward.
They still could easily have won though.
For our part, we are badly lacking the tempo and intensity that we started the season with.
Pugh and Whelan do not add anything, Delap is struggling with injury. I thought Amdy did well and I'd like to see him play with Olli. Soares or Tonge need to play more until Lawrence is fit.
We missed Sidibie badly.
Big game on Saturday and we just need to keep on picking up points.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 15, 2008 7:25:17 GMT
We really could do with a win on saturday to get the points in the bank. January will be a lean time.
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Post by apb1 on Dec 15, 2008 9:57:00 GMT
40-41 points will be enough, quote me on that. So 40-41 points is enough, but 42-45 points is insane? Not sure where you're coming from slangking - all bunny said, in a thoughtful post, was he's worried, and I am too. The maths is too unpredictable, all it needs is a few teams winning 1 losing 1 instead of drawing 2, and the points total required creeps up. 20 points is pretty much what I would have hoped for at this stage, but we are coming up to a tough spell of games - let's hope people stick behind the team and manager in January. A horrendous injury list means I am less confident than I would otherwise be going to Blackburn: a point would be one gained, and two taken off them, which is a shame because with a full team we'd muller them I reckon.
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Post by slangking on Dec 15, 2008 12:03:31 GMT
45 is ridiculous when 42 points is the most ever and that happened before you had 4 clubs dominating the league and expecting to be clear of the rest.
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g0b0ks
Youth Player
Posts: 307
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Post by g0b0ks on Dec 15, 2008 17:42:29 GMT
All we really need is one point more than the 18th placed team! As the season unfolds, I am sure we will achieve that!
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Post by CalgaryPotter on Dec 15, 2008 18:17:06 GMT
3 points at the weekend will make a big difference to our survival. It puts a big gap between us and the bottom two and will give us the space for when we have a lean period.
A win away at West Ham on the 28th will be a massive boost too and I think we are quite capable of that.
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Post by tazi on Dec 15, 2008 19:23:49 GMT
Thought Amdy Faye was man of the match on Saturday in the pick of a truly awful performance from everyone.
Whelan suffered because there was no one apart from Amdy sticking his boot in and picking a simple pass in order to provide him with space. In short Whelan missed Salif Diao and a fully fit Rory Delap.
Bullard mostly passed the ball sideways due to there not being many options in order for him to pass it forward and that's because TP's system means that we close down space by being well organised and marshalled.
Was a dissapointing performance and definately a point gained because if you aint playing well then take the point and get the fuck outta town.
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Post by eddy_under_fire'sviews on Dec 15, 2008 19:44:40 GMT
i think listening to Matteos comments on P&G, really made it clear to me how much Mama does for us.
TP clearly has a back 4, with his 2 CM's infront. now, if TP tells those 6 not to get pulled out of position by not pressing, the closing down needs to come from the 2 (so called) wide men, coming inside. And of course mama. That simply didn't happen against fulham.
i disagree with the original post, and thought that Am Faye had a great game. Whelan had a good game, but i personally feel that he needs more of the ball, and needs to get in the game more, so how about playing him on the right?? we don't necessarily need 2 wingers, but we DEFINATLY need to improve the service to the front 2.
lets say Mama is out for a while, what do people think to this as a front 6...
Diao (CM) Am Faye (CM) Whelan (RM) Tonge (LM) Pericard (SS)
Fuller (CF)
just a possibility.
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