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Post by chamberlain on Nov 11, 2024 22:13:37 GMT
Agree to disagree on it If he was aggressive and not as typically clumsy, that's in - despite being pulled back. His foot's basically there if he extended his leg; instead he pulls it back and flicks at it again It's still a pen btw - I'm just frustrated he didn't tap it in I do agree. Whilst it was a clear penalty I can't imagine that if Burger had shown the type of aggression Pèlach is calling for he wouldn't have been fighting to shrug off the defender and get his foot to the ball rather than falling over because he was pulled. Shrug someone off the size of Cooper who is pulling you from behind from a standing start , I should imagine that's impossible |
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Post by bloodtypered on Nov 11, 2024 22:29:44 GMT
Never mind the ref, the linesman could see perfectly ....he made alot of bad decisions too |
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Post by Olgrligm on Nov 11, 2024 22:56:50 GMT
He’s a “development referee” ? So in other words, a trainee. He was given our game against Millwall as some kind of glorified work experience? Shocking. What makes me laugh is he was 4th official when Bell was originally announced but then they bought in Ben Toner to replace him as 4th official,the same Ben Toner who’s already reffed us twice this season so why not just let him ref🤷♂️ He’s a development referee who is under the wing of Kevin Friend who I had a chat with before the game. I was amazed at one of things he told me about refs doing their homework on the 2 teams they’re going to ref that weekend 🤔I always thought they went into games with no pre conceived notions/ideas of what to expect?That said Finnie had reffed Millwall on Oct 5th at WBA so was familiar with the Millwall team. I sat next to a lower league referee on a train and he had his laptop out to write up his match notes from a recent game. I think one of the two teams was MK Dons, to give you an idea of the level. He had an A5 notebook with notes for every player in it like 'goes down easily' or 'winds up opponents'. He seemed nice enough. When I looked him up later I found that he's utterly detested by supporters of Grimsby or Yeovil or somewhere like that. |
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Post by stokecitytalke on Nov 11, 2024 23:00:42 GMT
What makes me laugh is he was 4th official when Bell was originally announced but then they bought in Ben Toner to replace him as 4th official,the same Ben Toner who’s already reffed us twice this season so why not just let him ref🤷♂️ He’s a development referee who is under the wing of Kevin Friend who I had a chat with before the game. I was amazed at one of things he told me about refs doing their homework on the 2 teams they’re going to ref that weekend 🤔I always thought they went into games with no pre conceived notions/ideas of what to expect?That said Finnie had reffed Millwall on Oct 5th at WBA so was familiar with the Millwall team. I sat next to a lower league referee on a train and he had his laptop out to write up his match notes from a recent game. I think one of the two teams was MK Dons, to give you an idea of the level. He had an A5 notebook with notes for every player in it like 'goes down easily' or 'winds up opponents'. He seemed nice enough. When I looked him up later I found that he's utterly detested by supporters of Grimsby or Yeovil or somewhere like that. They shouldn't have preconceived ideas about players, they should just referee it as they see it. |
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Post by ethers26 on Nov 11, 2024 23:01:16 GMT
I do agree. Whilst it was a clear penalty I can't imagine that if Burger had shown the type of aggression Pèlach is calling for he wouldn't have been fighting to shrug off the defender and get his foot to the ball rather than falling over because he was pulled. Can't believe we're watching the same incident if you think he could have "shrugged him off". You can't shrug someone off who is forcefully and completely unexpectedly yanking you to the ground by your arm/midriff just when you've set yourself to take a shot. Hmm. He's barely ripped him down has he? It definitely wasn't enough for Burger to flail his arms around and fall into him anyway Doesn't matter regardless - just an observation/frustration! |
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Post by onionman on Nov 11, 2024 23:04:32 GMT
I sat next to a lower league referee on a train and he had his laptop out to write up his match notes from a recent game. I think one of the two teams was MK Dons, to give you an idea of the level. He had an A5 notebook with notes for every player in it like 'goes down easily' or 'winds up opponents'. He seemed nice enough. When I looked him up later I found that he's utterly detested by supporters of Grimsby or Yeovil or somewhere like that. They shouldn't have preconceived ideas about players, they should just referee it as they see it. Yes, and this is why things don't actually even themselves out through the course of a season. |
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Nov 11, 2024 23:04:34 GMT
It gets worse every time I see it, The linesman is looking straight at it! You win some & you loose some but the standard of officiating in this league is really poor. If you stop the video at the exact moment of the foul ( as blatant a foul as you will ever see) there is another Millwall player who looks as though he is obscuring the assistant referees view of the incident. Dermot Gallagher has criticised the referees positioning and said that he wasn't in the right position to see it. I haven't seen a video to check that but it could be that neither official had a clear view of it. It's difficult to think of any other reason why it wasn't given. The game loses a lot of referees at grass roots level because of the abuse they get. This must inevitably affect the pool of referees for promotion at every level above. Anyone who shouts at the ref when watching their children on a Saturday morning or Sunday, and then does the same at a professional game, should realise that the former eventually contributes to the quality of the refs at the latter. Having now looked at the Gallagher clip, the ref does appear to have a clear line of sight. The only thing in his defence is that it is from behind the Millwall player so the pulling action may not have been obvious, as it would have been with a side-on view. I don't know if that's what Gallagher meant by wrong positioning meaning he couldn't see it. |
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Post by senojbor on Nov 11, 2024 23:36:42 GMT
Is that the worst Linesman to ever officiate at Stoke City? Like asking a reluctant Dad to run the line at an under 12’s but less competent? Agreed, he missed offsides and fouls and generally seemed like he had other things on his mind |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 11, 2024 23:50:33 GMT
Is that the worst Linesman to ever officiate at Stoke City? Like asking a reluctant Dad to run the line at an under 12’s but less competent? Agreed, he missed offsides and fouls and generally seemed like he had other things on his mind He's been here before and the minute I saw him on Saturday I remembered him as someone who didn't like making tough decisions, the sort of linesman who waits to see if the ref will make a decision on tight calls even just throw ins before raising his flag. As a rookie ref, the sort of linesman you don't want, not that that excuses the ref's decision but I am pretty sure that linesman would never have taken the lead on a decision even if he had a clearer view of an incident than the ref. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 11, 2024 23:54:20 GMT
They shouldn't have preconceived ideas about players, they should just referee it as they see it. Yes, and this is why things don't actually even themselves out through the course of a season. It is wrong but the trouble is that it is very difficult not to remember players who go down too easily. The players themselves are to blame. If you know a player has conned you before it is human nature to be a bit dubious next time. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2024 0:03:56 GMT
I do agree. Whilst it was a clear penalty I can't imagine that if Burger had shown the type of aggression Pèlach is calling for he wouldn't have been fighting to shrug off the defender and get his foot to the ball rather than falling over because he was pulled. Shrug someone off the size of Cooper who is pulling you from behind from a standing start , I should imagine that's impossible Once he feels the pull, Burger's one thought is to go down. It was a penalty, no doubt about it, but I don't think Burger made any attempt to stay on his feet or even try to get a foot on the ball. It seems to go against the no excuses, effect what you can culture Pèlach is trying to instil. Yes it was a penalty, Burger was going to end up on the floor but if he'd battled to get a touch he might have scored and then he wouldn't have been relying on the ref to make the decision. I am in no way saying the ref was right or that it wasn't a foul, but as with most players these days Burger seemed more intent on making sure he got a penalty than on trying to score regardless. |
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Post by PotterLog on Nov 12, 2024 0:15:11 GMT
Can't believe we're watching the same incident if you think he could have "shrugged him off". You can't shrug someone off who is forcefully and completely unexpectedly yanking you to the ground by your arm/midriff just when you've set yourself to take a shot. Hmm. He's barely ripped him down has he? It definitely wasn't enough for Burger to flail his arms around and fall into him anyway Doesn't matter regardless - just an observation/frustration! I think “ripped him down” is an entirely accurate description. Even just the reaction of Wouter (and all the other Stoke players in the vicinity) says it all - he’s incensed because he was totally blindsided as he was about to knock the ball into an open net. That is not the reaction of someone who’s gone down easily in a routine tussle for the ball. If you watch the replay and concentrate on the defender you can see the very moment he thinks “uh oh” and reaches out in desperation to pull him back and prevent him knocking it in. I’m absolutely certain he’ll be as amazed as anyone that he got away with it. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2024 0:22:29 GMT
Hmm. He's barely ripped him down has he? It definitely wasn't enough for Burger to flail his arms around and fall into him anyway Doesn't matter regardless - just an observation/frustration! I think “ripped him down” is an entirely accurate description. Even just the reaction of Wouter (and all the other Stoke players in the vicinity) says it all - he’s incensed because he was totally blindsided as he was about to knock the ball into an open net. That is not the reaction of someone who’s gone down easily in a routine tussle for the ball. If you watch the replay and concentrate on the defender you can see the very moment he thinks “uh oh” and reaches out in desperation to pull him back and prevent him knocking it in. I’m absolutely certain he’ll be as amazed as anyone that he got away with it. I don't dispute the pull but watch Burger carefully. There is the initial fall in the direction he is being pulled but then a more dramatic fall onto the grass in a different direction and immediate jumping up to chase the ref, not a moment of hesitation at the of shock having been pulled down. I know it's against the current idea that if a player feels a touch he goes he has a right to go down but I want to see a bit of desire to fight off challenges and stay on your feet. |
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Post by Rt Hon Reverend Luvpump on Nov 12, 2024 0:24:33 GMT
Is that the worst Linesman to ever officiate at Stoke City? Like asking a reluctant Dad to run the line at an under 12’s but less competent? Agreed, he missed offsides and fouls and generally seemed like he had other things on his mind If it’s the same linesman has been dodgy previously for us. |
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Post by LphPotter on Nov 12, 2024 0:36:45 GMT
Dermot Gallagher says “in the defence of the referee,” to which I expect him to give something that could maybe excuse why the ref missed it. He then goes on to explain how he’s completely in the wrong position, so he was just incompetent. It’s staggering that it was missed, every Stoke player (from all angles inside and around the box) immediately appeal. I could see it from block 16, it was blatantly obvious what had happened. It wasn’t just that incident though, in the aftermath when Bocat went down & people were claiming for a red card, he’d lost it and was like a rabbit in the headlights. It’s very concerning that the referee is even given this relatively high profile match if he’s still a major work in progress. Not just every Stoke player appealed, every single Millwall player turned immediately to look at the ref. Everyone in the ground knew what had happened except seemingly the ref and the linesman. Although I’m convinced that the linesman saw it, he simply couldn’t miss it from where he was, he just didn’t get involved as usual. They wait to see what the ref says before giving a throw in most of the time so what hope have we got with them getting involved in a penalty |
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Post by PotterLog on Nov 12, 2024 0:38:19 GMT
I think “ripped him down” is an entirely accurate description. Even just the reaction of Wouter (and all the other Stoke players in the vicinity) says it all - he’s incensed because he was totally blindsided as he was about to knock the ball into an open net. That is not the reaction of someone who’s gone down easily in a routine tussle for the ball. If you watch the replay and concentrate on the defender you can see the very moment he thinks “uh oh” and reaches out in desperation to pull him back and prevent him knocking it in. I’m absolutely certain he’ll be as amazed as anyone that he got away with it. I don't dispute the pull but watch Burger carefully. There is the initial fall in the direction he is being pulled but then a more dramatic fall onto the grass in a different direction and immediate jumping up to chase the ref, not a moment of hesitation at the of shock having been pulled down. I know it's against the current idea that if a player feels a touch he goes he has a right to go down but I want to see a bit of desire to fight off challenges and stay on your feet. I just think you’re miles off with this. It wasn’t remotely a “challenge” that could be fought off. I also think he actually *did* try to stay upright and get a foot on it. The flicking out of the leg to try and make contact happened in that pause where he’s being pulled before his balance is lost completely. I want to see fight and desire as well, I just don't think it’s applicable to this incident in any way |
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Post by lordb on Nov 12, 2024 7:02:11 GMT
Shrug someone off the size of Cooper who is pulling you from behind from a standing start , I should imagine that's impossible Once he feels the pull, Burger's one thought is to go down. It was a penalty, no doubt about it, but I don't think Burger made any attempt to stay on his feet or even try to get a foot on the ball. It seems to go against the no excuses, effect what you can culture Pèlach is trying to instil. Yes it was a penalty, Burger was going to end up on the floor but if he'd battled to get a touch he might have scored and then he wouldn't have been relying on the ref to make the decision. I am in no way saying the ref was right or that it wasn't a foul, but as with most players these days Burger seemed more intent on making sure he got a penalty than on trying to score regardless. Nonsense He doesn't think about anything, he goes down because he's pulled down,he couldn't have scored because of it |
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Post by stokecitydom on Nov 12, 2024 8:25:41 GMT
Can't believe we're watching the same incident if you think he could have "shrugged him off". You can't shrug someone off who is forcefully and completely unexpectedly yanking you to the ground by your arm/midriff just when you've set yourself to take a shot. Hmm. He's barely ripped him down has he? It definitely wasn't enough for Burger to flail his arms around and fall into him anyway Doesn't matter regardless - just an observation/frustration! Burger is standing on one leg, doesn’t take much to put you off balance. If he could’ve done, there’s no doubt that Burger would’ve taken the opportunity to put us level. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2024 10:29:26 GMT
Hmm. He's barely ripped him down has he? It definitely wasn't enough for Burger to flail his arms around and fall into him anyway Doesn't matter regardless - just an observation/frustration! Burger is standing on one leg, doesn’t take much to put you off balance. If he could’ve done, there’s no doubt that Burger would’ve taken the opportunity to put us level. You fall backwards, in the direction of the pull though, not face down sideways |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2024 10:39:33 GMT
Laat comment I will make and I am playing Devil's advocate here but I think the second fall is the reason the ref doesn't give it.
If you watch the last replay in the clip there is a definite exageration and dramatic fall. My feelings are that the ref saw that part and not having seen the pull thought Burger was diving. Had he just gone with his momentum and fallen backwards the ref may have at least asked the assistant but in all honesty I don't think they'd have given it.
As Pelach says, you can't alter the decision so get on with the game. Burger doesn't get the fouls against him every week because he tends to throw his arms up and exagerate his fall. He needs some lessons from Cannon on how to fall when you feel a touch but make it look as natural as possible.
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Post by stokecitydom on Nov 12, 2024 11:05:44 GMT
Burger is standing on one leg, doesn’t take much to put you off balance. If he could’ve done, there’s no doubt that Burger would’ve taken the opportunity to put us level. You fall backwards, in the direction of the pull though, not face down sideways He did fall backwards, he just rotated as he was falling. It’s just a clear penalty all day long & the ref has had a nightmare. |
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Post by PotteringThrough on Nov 12, 2024 12:01:46 GMT
Laat comment I will make and I am playing Devil's advocate here but I think the second fall is the reason the ref doesn't give it. If you watch the last replay in the clip there is a definite exageration and dramatic fall. My feelings are that the ref saw that part and not having seen the pull thought Burger was diving. Had he just gone with his momentum and fallen backwards the ref may have at least asked the assistant but in all honesty I don't think they'd have given it. As Pelach says, you can't alter the decision so get on with the game. Burger doesn't get the fouls against him every week because he tends to throw his arms up and exagerate his fall. He needs some lessons from Cannon on how to fall when you feel a touch but make it look as natural as possible. The reason he didn’t give it is because he missed it completely - nothing at all to do with how Burger fell after being grabbed. |
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Post by skip on Nov 12, 2024 12:17:30 GMT
Yes, and this is why things don't actually even themselves out through the course of a season. It is wrong but the trouble is that it is very difficult not to remember players who go down too easily. The players themselves are to blame. If you know a player has conned you before it is human nature to be a bit dubious next time. A ref should never start a game with implicit bias so blatant in their mindset. We have suffered due to this for years 'because Stoke...'. |
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Post by maine on Nov 12, 2024 13:00:49 GMT
I'm not at all happy with how some people here are 'blaming the victim' here, and simultaneously seemingly pursuing an anti Burger agenda. As for the penalty it seemed to me there were two pulls. After the first he tried to complete his shot but was tugged again. That's why he was so frustrated. I'm seeing a transference to Burger of what not so long ago belonged to Allen. Both are hard working, committed players giving of their best within human limitations. Wouter would do well to see how Seko deals with refs, but it should be obvious that the guy cares.
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Post by J-Roar on Nov 12, 2024 15:12:01 GMT
I think “ripped him down” is an entirely accurate description. Even just the reaction of Wouter (and all the other Stoke players in the vicinity) says it all - he’s incensed because he was totally blindsided as he was about to knock the ball into an open net. That is not the reaction of someone who’s gone down easily in a routine tussle for the ball. If you watch the replay and concentrate on the defender you can see the very moment he thinks “uh oh” and reaches out in desperation to pull him back and prevent him knocking it in. I’m absolutely certain he’ll be as amazed as anyone that he got away with it. I don't dispute the pull but watch Burger carefully. There is the initial fall in the direction he is being pulled but then a more dramatic fall onto the grass in a different direction and immediate jumping up to chase the ref, not a moment of hesitation at the of shock having been pulled down. I know it's against the current idea that if a player feels a touch he goes he has a right to go down but I want to see a bit of desire to fight off challenges and stay on your feet. And then sky it because he's off balance? If referees had the balls to give a penalty because the player is impeded then you'd have a point. They clearly don't do that any more which forces the attacker to go down. If he doesn't go down, as a pro, he isn't doing his job. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Nov 12, 2024 16:28:03 GMT
I don't dispute the pull but watch Burger carefully. There is the initial fall in the direction he is being pulled but then a more dramatic fall onto the grass in a different direction and immediate jumping up to chase the ref, not a moment of hesitation at the of shock having been pulled down. I know it's against the current idea that if a player feels a touch he goes he has a right to go down but I want to see a bit of desire to fight off challenges and stay on your feet. And then sky it because he's off balance? If referees had the balls to give a penalty because the player is impeded then you'd have a point. They clearly don't do that any more which forces the attacker to go down. If he doesn't go down, as a pro, he isn't doing his job. As I've said he needs to take lessons from Cannon on how to go down convincingly. Don't let the ref think that you have exagerated the foul. Invariably flinging your arms makes them think it's a dive. As I've said I don't think the ref saw the tug, ( as has been said, poor positioning) but he does see Burger drop dramatically and unnaturally flinging his arms. It should have been a penalty , no question. Just trying to undrrstand why the ref and linesman never even considered the possibility. |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Nov 12, 2024 16:50:13 GMT
Is that the worst Linesman to ever officiate at Stoke City? Like asking a reluctant Dad to run the line at an under 12’s but less competent? Agreed, he missed offsides and fouls and generally seemed like he had other things on his mind Like shafting Stoke? |
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Post by stokefc on Nov 12, 2024 16:57:39 GMT
And then sky it because he's off balance? If referees had the balls to give a penalty because the player is impeded then you'd have a point. They clearly don't do that any more which forces the attacker to go down. If he doesn't go down, as a pro, he isn't doing his job. As I've said he needs to take lessons from Cannon on how to go down convincingly. Don't let the ref think that you have exagerated the foul. Invariably flinging your arms makes them think it's a dive. As I've said I don't think the ref saw the tug, ( as has been said, poor positioning) but he does see Burger drop dramatically and unnaturally flinging his arms. It should have been a penalty , no question. Just trying to undrrstand why the ref and linesman never even considered the possibility. He was virtually assulted there was no exaggerating , he wasn't being dramatic and who in there right mind would think it was a dive I don't know why people are seeing it differently Definitely one of the worst decisions i've ever seen |
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Post by Veritas on Nov 13, 2024 15:26:37 GMT
And then sky it because he's off balance? If referees had the balls to give a penalty because the player is impeded then you'd have a point. They clearly don't do that any more which forces the attacker to go down. If he doesn't go down, as a pro, he isn't doing his job. As I've said he needs to take lessons from Cannon on how to go down convincingly. Don't let the ref think that you have exagerated the foul. Invariably flinging your arms makes them think it's a dive. As I've said I don't think the ref saw the tug, ( as has been said, poor positioning) but he does see Burger drop dramatically and unnaturally flinging his arms. It should have been a penalty , no question. Just trying to undrrstand why the ref and linesman never even considered the possibility. He was pulled backwards as he was trying to go forward so of course his arms went upwards. Dreadful positioning by the ref but the assistant had a clear view. |
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