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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jun 2, 2024 14:01:52 GMT
No it wasn’t me but tweets like this may say otherwise There’s hundreds of tweets out there of the non stereotypes that are being portrayed by you and the media So you're admitting that the vast majority on that march yesterday where predominantly white middle aged men? Correct? I haven’t got a clue I wasn’t there
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2024 14:10:22 GMT
They can describe it as that mate but it doesn't change the fact that religions are not races. So strictly speaking it's wrong as a person of any race can follow any religion. It really isn't mate. Accross most of the Western World, Islamaphobia is considered racist. Jews are not a race but antisemitism is definitely an example of racism. In the US, it’s xenophobia. “Racism” is a skin color based issue. “Racism” is an antiquated term. African Americans are human. There is one human race and many ethnicities. However, ethnicism just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 14:27:51 GMT
I'm not sure of the point you're making initially. Are you saying that you don't think being Islamophobic is being racist? I think you've hit the nail on the head with your Catholic remark. You can't tar entire religions with the same brush, the 'issues' ordinarily come from very small elements within those communities. Which takes us back to the question of ... who do they actually 'want their country back' from? I think islamaphobic is a word that try’s to cover every aspect of any criticism of Islam, a bit like over on the Israel thread we here anti semite being branded about like confetti. Obviously if your walking round shouting the p word then yes of course it is. Criticising a certain aspects of Islam that aren’t fitting in todays society, then no I don’t. Still think about that teacher who’s in hiding for showing a fucking cartoon, it’s ridiculous, imo of course As for what they want back, I’d imagine home towns have changed at an unprecedented pace and are barely recognisable to what they once remember.. not like it’s going to change mind Some good points mate. It is Islamophobic to abuse somebody for following Islam. Chanting "Who the fuck is Allah" and carrying banners proclaiming that we have 'Londonistan' is both Islamaphobic and racist. Judging people based on them being Muslims is also a form of racism but that is much more open to debate than abusing somebody. For example not giving somebody a job, entirely because they are Muslim is racist, but to not sit next to somebody on a bus because they are perceived to be Muslim isn't as clearly defined. Criticising Islam and the teachings of Islam are not in any way racist, as long as those criticisms don't decend into racism as they're being made. For example "the Quran is just a load of Pa*i shit". I think the distinction is quite clear. Not quite so clear with antisemitism though. Due in my opinion, to it's term being hijacked by Zionists to include ANY form of criticism of Israel. Typical antisemitic tropes, are those of Jews being tight with money, controlling the world's banks, using specific words like 'cabal' out of context and of course holocaust denial. And all are rightly called out for being racist. As for who they 'want their country back from', you said their 'home towns that have changed at an unprecedented pace' but that doesn't address WHO they want it back from? Is it Irish, black people, Chinese, Scottish, Sikhs, Hindus, WHO? crouchpotato has posted some examples above, apparently demonstrating that the march was multi-racial but I don't see any Muslims on there. The leaders of the march were carrying an Islamaphobic flag, sections of the crowd were chanting "who the fuck is Allah", indeed I think this tweet replying to one of the tweets crouchpotato has posted might give us a hint at what's going on here ... Is it actually Muslims that they 'want their country back from'? It has to be from SOMEBODY doesn't it? Which is absolutely fine, if people think that Islam/Muslims are taking over the country then it is their prerogative to think and say so but let's at least be honest about it, rather than hiding behind some smokescreen about two tier policing.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 2, 2024 14:36:37 GMT
So if me, a white person, converts to Islam and someone makes "islamaphobic" comments towards me, can I claim I've been racially abused? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make Mickey, what I've stated is a fact. Being abused for being Islamic is racism, regardless of the colour of your skin, just like being abused for being Jewish is racism, regardless of the colour of your skin. I'm confused as to how a religion can relate to one particular race when all religions have people of several races in them. So is it multiple racist against all the various races with whatever particular religion?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 14:56:52 GMT
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make Mickey, what I've stated is a fact. Being abused for being Islamic is racism, regardless of the colour of your skin, just like being abused for being Jewish is racism, regardless of the colour of your skin. I'm confused as to how a religion can relate to one particular race when all religions have people of several races in them. So is it multiple racist against all the various races with whatever particular religion? Yeah fair question. I think it can be both, it's all about context. For example, if somebody calls a Hindu a filthy Muslim, even though he's not a Muslim it is definiely racist, whether it's Islamaphobic or not, I'm not entirely certain but I'm not sure if it even actually matters. We'd just be moving into semantics at that point. Traditionally racism has always been about race but since roughly the turn of the century, there has been a huge shift in the thinking of academics, politicians and law makers about what defines racism, especially when it comes to religion. As I said earlier, there are all manner of races that are Jewish, yet to be antisemitic is most definitely to be racist and you can of course be tried for as much.
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Post by elystokie on Jun 2, 2024 15:09:01 GMT
So if me, a white person, converts to Islam and someone makes "islamaphobic" comments towards me, can I claim I've been racially abused? Exactly, so if somebody says to an atheist youre going to hell fire for being a non believer, is that racism? I don't see how it can be if it's not against the atheists race or religion, in this case the atheist doesn't have a religion. As an atheist myself people can threaten me with their imaginary friends or enemies all they like, I'll just laugh at the daft buggers 😀
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 2, 2024 15:41:09 GMT
Strictly speaking being against Islam for its own sake is Islamaphobia which strictly speaking is not racism as originally defined. However there are parallels in terms of attitudes and behaviours and in 2018 an All Party Group in Parliament defined Islamaphobia as: "Islamaphobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that target Muslimness or perceived Muslimness." So in terms of the definition defined by Parliament, which in turn determines the effectivem legal definition, Robinson is a racist as a result of his Islamaphobic views. They can describe it as that mate but it doesn't change the fact that religions are not races. So strictly speaking it's wrong as a person of any race can follow any religion. The definition does not claim that Islam is a race. It is saying that if people make generalised derogatory claims about people purely on the basis of being Muslim then morally and legally they are doing exactly the same thing as someone who makes generalised derogatory claims about someone based solely on their race. So if someone say "all Muslims are paedophiles and should be sent back to their own country" it is morally and legally equivalent to someone saying "all black people are paedophiles and should be sent back to their own country". The important thing is the generalisation - making assumptions about people purely on the basis of a particular characteristic. It is not Islamophobic to say something like "there is an issue within certain sections of the Muslim community regarding their attitudes to women" because it is a verifiable statement that does not make a sweeping statement about all Muslims. For the same reason saying "there is an issue within sections of the black community with respect to the practice of female genital mutilation" is not racist. The fact is the far right have been trying to hide behind semantics for several years now and justifying Islamaphobia by claiming they aren't being racist is just an attempt to deflect attention from what they are actually doing. The definition agreed by Parliament just calls out what they are doing for what it is and makes it clear if they use the same sweeping generalisations about Muslims as they did about Jews and black people they aren't going to get away with it.
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Post by mrnovember on Jun 2, 2024 15:45:41 GMT
I'm not sure of the point you're making initially. Are you saying that you don't think being Islamophobic is being racist? I think you've hit the nail on the head with your Catholic remark. You can't tar entire religions with the same brush, the 'issues' ordinarily come from very small elements within those communities. Which takes us back to the question of ... who do they actually 'want their country back' from? I think islamaphobic is a word that try’s to cover every aspect of any criticism of Islam, a bit like over on the Israel thread we here anti semite being branded about like confetti. Obviously if your walking round shouting the p word then yes of course it is. Criticising a certain aspects of Islam that aren’t fitting in todays society, then no I don’t. Still think about that teacher who’s in hiding for showing a fucking cartoon, it’s ridiculous, imo of course As for what they want back, I’d imagine home towns have changed at an unprecedented pace and are barely recognisable to what they once remember.. not like it’s going to change mind Anti Semite doesn't get 'branded about like confetti' over on the Israel thread.
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Post by knype on Jun 2, 2024 15:47:35 GMT
This is a 100% true. Just a couple of weeks ago, I had to share a short journey with somebody I had never met before and during that journey he told me that he wasn't a racist, in fact he said he loved foreign culture. However if 'they' want to do 'it', then they should go back to where they came from to do it. He instigated the conversation and you could see the actual rage in his eyes as he was talking, I suspect I wasn't the only stranger he vented on that day. The thing is, I'm sure he genuinely didn't believe that he was racist, I told him that he was (the 'conversation' ended very quickly). But this is it, many racists don't even realise that they are actually racist. In the same respect (not in this case necessarily) I’m sure there’s plenty of people that overly use the word “racist” to describe someone that isn’t just because they think they’re an expert and become judge, jury and executioner. It’s not just racism though is it it’s all forms of prejudice. There’s plenty that show the same prejudice that people do re racism on other groups such as the Royals, Tories and Police when they judge an individual who they’ve never met under one banner. Everybody’s guilty of it. A few on here do that
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jun 2, 2024 15:57:21 GMT
I'm confused as to how a religion can relate to one particular race when all religions have people of several races in them. So is it multiple racist against all the various races with whatever particular religion? Yeah fair question. I think it can be both, it's all about context. For example, if somebody calls a Hindu a filthy Muslim, even though he's not a Muslim it is definiely racist, whether it's Islamaphobic or not, I'm not entirely certain but I'm not sure if it even actually matters. We'd just be moving into semantics at that point. Traditionally racism has always been about race but since roughly the turn of the century, there has been a huge shift in the thinking of academics, politicians and law makers about what defines racism, especially when it comes to religion. As I said earlier, there are all manner of races that are Jewish, yet to be antisemitic is most definitely to be racist and you can of course be tried for as much. I kind of get where you're coming from. This constant adjustment of definitions however does make it confusing..
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 16:11:22 GMT
Yeah fair question. I think it can be both, it's all about context. For example, if somebody calls a Hindu a filthy Muslim, even though he's not a Muslim it is definiely racist, whether it's Islamaphobic or not, I'm not entirely certain but I'm not sure if it even actually matters. We'd just be moving into semantics at that point. Traditionally racism has always been about race but since roughly the turn of the century, there has been a huge shift in the thinking of academics, politicians and law makers about what defines racism, especially when it comes to religion. As I said earlier, there are all manner of races that are Jewish, yet to be antisemitic is most definitely to be racist and you can of course be tried for as much. I kind of get where you're coming from. This constant adjustment of definitions however does make it confusing.. CBUFAWKIPWH explained it far better than I did, above.
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Post by musik on Jun 2, 2024 16:54:43 GMT
It really isn't mate. Accross most of the Western World, Islamaphobia is considered racist. Jews are not a race but antisemitism is definitely an example of racism. Racism is when a person is treated worse, excluded, disadvantaged, harassed, bullied, humiliated or degraded because of their race or ethnicity. Are there different races or just One race and different ethnicities? In Sweden my friend, it depends on which year the book is printed.
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Post by musik on Jun 2, 2024 17:13:33 GMT
Jews are not a race but antisemitism is definitely an example of racism. Good example since we all know what has happened historically.👍 And it shouldn't never ever happen again, no matter where you belong to or come from, muslim, christian, buddhist, atheist, satanist, communist, liberal, conservative, Vale supporter ...
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Post by musik on Jun 2, 2024 17:27:24 GMT
It really isn't mate. Accross most of the Western World, Islamaphobia is considered racist. Jews are not a race but antisemitism is definitely an example of racism. In the US, it’s xenophobia. “Racism” is a skin color based issue. “Racism” is an antiquated term. African Americans are human. There is one human race and many ethnicities. However, ethnicism just doesn’t have the same ring to it. There we see how definition and the meaning of words change. In Sweden noone speaks of "race" anymore. In reports on tv from USA everybody uses "race". I must repeat my question: if you don't fancy sleeping with someone from Asia or Africa, and you're white, isn't that just a matter of taste and preferences? I think the word racist is heavily overused and much is down to self-preservation. Do people from different ethnicities have different characteristics you think? My old teacher in elementary school said all people looked the same. She saw us humans as if we look at magpies (well I can't see much of a difference between them that's for sure).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2024 17:50:17 GMT
In the US, it’s xenophobia. “Racism” is a skin color based issue. “Racism” is an antiquated term. African Americans are human. There is one human race and many ethnicities. However, ethnicism just doesn’t have the same ring to it. There we see how definition and the meaning of words change. In Sweden noone speaks of "race" anymore. In reports on tv from USA everybody uses "race". I must repeat my question: if you don't fancy sleeping with someone from Asia or Africa, and you're white, isn't that just a matter of taste and preferences? I think the word racist is heavily overused and much is down to self-preservation. Do people from different ethnicities have different characteristics you think? My old teacher in elementary school said all people looked the same. She saw us humans as if we look at magpies (well I can't see much of a difference between them that's for sure). I don’t think it makes you racist, no. Unless the point is something like, “I wouldn’t date a black person, because I think that they’re all criminals”, which is quite racist. People of different ethnicities definitely have different characteristics. They can be social, cultural, or genetic. I can take the genotype of a random person, plot it and without knowing that person’s ethnicity beforehand, I can give a very decent guess as to whether they are African, African American, South-East Asian, European etc.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 17:57:33 GMT
Deep down who knows. I think he probably puts on a bit of a front on camera and sort of adopts an alter ego when he's doing his videos and what not. The people who fund him to push division similarly are they racist or are they just super wealthy and want to keep the working class divided so no eyes are on them? Who knows. What even is a racist? What's the threshold between being racist and not racist. I don't think it's as black and white as made out. Children aren't racist. Maybe putting such an emphasis on racism nearly helps it manifest as people are always looking for it. Left, right, white, brown, black, Christian, jew, muslim. It's in everyone's best interests to unite rather than divide. While we fight over manufactured divisions, inequality just keeps growing. And that's the common enemy of all of us (in my opinion). Tommy Robinson is clearly a racist. I don't think it matters if he actually believes what he says, or he just says it for the money. Saying it just for the money is actually, probably even worse. 'Londistan' is a racist, Islamaphobic trope and yet he (and many others) felt more than comfortable to walk through the streets of London yesterday carrying a huge banner proclaiming as much. They 'want their country back', back from WHO exactly? We had EXACTLY these same calls back in the 70's and the 80's from the NF and the BNP, nothing has changed, the sentiment is the same. It died off a bit in the 90's and the naughties, when people's standard of living was raised but now (you could possibly argue understandably) it's beginning to raise it's ugly head again. When I watched the speech of Laurence Fox yesterday, you could see The Beauceant being flown right next to the The Star of David and I thought, just what on earth is going on here, what is this protest actually about? This is exactly the point I was attempting to make above about how people's standard of living and the economy feed into people's angst. One of the last true Tories ...
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Post by knype on Jun 2, 2024 18:15:07 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Jun 2, 2024 18:29:26 GMT
Deep down who knows. I think he probably puts on a bit of a front on camera and sort of adopts an alter ego when he's doing his videos and what not. The people who fund him to push division similarly are they racist or are they just super wealthy and want to keep the working class divided so no eyes are on them? Who knows. What even is a racist? What's the threshold between being racist and not racist. I don't think it's as black and white as made out. Children aren't racist. Maybe putting such an emphasis on racism nearly helps it manifest as people are always looking for it. Left, right, white, brown, black, Christian, jew, muslim. It's in everyone's best interests to unite rather than divide. While we fight over manufactured divisions, inequality just keeps growing. And that's the common enemy of all of us (in my opinion). Tommy Robinson is clearly a racist. I don't think it matters if he actually believes what he says, or he just says it for the money. Saying it just for the money is actually, probably even worse. 'Londistan' is a racist, Islamaphobic trope and yet he (and many others) felt more than comfortable to walk through the streets of London yesterday carrying a huge banner proclaiming as much. They 'want their country back', back from WHO exactly? We had EXACTLY these same calls back in the 70's and the 80's from the NF and the BNP, nothing has changed, the sentiment is the same. It died off a bit in the 90's and the naughties, when people's standard of living was raised but now (you could possibly argue understandably) it's beginning to raise it's ugly head again. When I watched the speech of Laurence Fox yesterday, you could see The Beauceant being flown right next to the The Star of David and I thought, just what on earth is going on here, what is this protest actually about? Two tier Policing init?
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Post by wannabee on Jun 2, 2024 18:34:28 GMT
Strictly speaking being against Islam for its own sake is Islamaphobia which strictly speaking is not racism as originally defined. However there are parallels in terms of attitudes and behaviours and in 2018 an All Party Group in Parliament defined Islamaphobia as: "Islamaphobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that target Muslimness or perceived Muslimness." So in terms of the definition defined by Parliament, which in turn determines the effectivem legal definition, Robinson is a racist as a result of his Islamaphobic views. They can describe it as that mate but it doesn't change the fact that religions are not races. So strictly speaking it's wrong as a person of any race can follow any religion. Neither are Jews a Race so we'll just settle for Antisemitic and Islamophobic
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 18:39:18 GMT
Tommy Robinson is clearly a racist. I don't think it matters if he actually believes what he says, or he just says it for the money. Saying it just for the money is actually, probably even worse. 'Londistan' is a racist, Islamaphobic trope and yet he (and many others) felt more than comfortable to walk through the streets of London yesterday carrying a huge banner proclaiming as much. They 'want their country back', back from WHO exactly? We had EXACTLY these same calls back in the 70's and the 80's from the NF and the BNP, nothing has changed, the sentiment is the same. It died off a bit in the 90's and the naughties, when people's standard of living was raised but now (you could possibly argue understandably) it's beginning to raise it's ugly head again. When I watched the speech of Laurence Fox yesterday, you could see The Beauceant being flown right next to the The Star of David and I thought, just what on earth is going on here, what is this protest actually about? Two tier Policing init? Apparently ... 🤫
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jun 2, 2024 18:39:23 GMT
That German knife attack is unbelievable. The perpetrator is stabbing people, members of the public subdue him, the police turn up, pull the people off the attacker (one of whom looks like he's being handcuffed by officers) who then proceeds to stab a policeman before being shot. Edit: Turns out the attacker initially targeted a politician.
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Post by andystokey on Jun 2, 2024 18:41:32 GMT
Tommy Robinson is clearly a racist. I don't think it matters if he actually believes what he says, or he just says it for the money. Saying it just for the money is actually, probably even worse. 'Londistan' is a racist, Islamaphobic trope and yet he (and many others) felt more than comfortable to walk through the streets of London yesterday carrying a huge banner proclaiming as much. They 'want their country back', back from WHO exactly? We had EXACTLY these same calls back in the 70's and the 80's from the NF and the BNP, nothing has changed, the sentiment is the same. It died off a bit in the 90's and the naughties, when people's standard of living was raised but now (you could possibly argue understandably) it's beginning to raise it's ugly head again. When I watched the speech of Laurence Fox yesterday, you could see The Beauceant being flown right next to the The Star of David and I thought, just what on earth is going on here, what is this protest actually about? This is exactly the point I was attempting to make above about how people's standard of living and the economy feed into people's angst. One of the last true Tories ... Shows how much we've drifted to the right when an arch nemesis from the 80s is talking more sense than anyone currently expecting my vote.
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Post by knype on Jun 2, 2024 18:42:41 GMT
This is exactly the point I was attempting to make above about how people's standard of living and the economy feed into people's angst. One of the last true Tories ... Shows how much we've drifted to the right when an arch nemesis from the 80s is talking more sense than anyone currently expecting my vote. Not seen some prominent posters talk about this much
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 18:55:46 GMT
Shows how much we've drifted to the right when an arch nemesis from the 80s is talking more sense than anyone currently expecting my vote. Not seen some prominent posters talk about this much What do you think of what he said knype?
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Post by knype on Jun 2, 2024 19:07:56 GMT
Not seen some prominent posters talk about this much What do you think of what he said knype? What do you have to say about the link I shared Paul ?
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Post by wannabee on Jun 2, 2024 19:12:36 GMT
Hate crimes against Christians have increased in Jerusalem since October 7 People that commit hate crimes against anyone due to their Religion should be published Anyone preaching hate crimes against another Religion should be sent to Gaol I'm an Atheist and I can understand this very simple concept
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Post by musik on Jun 2, 2024 19:12:47 GMT
There we see how definition and the meaning of words change. In Sweden noone speaks of "race" anymore. In reports on tv from USA everybody uses "race". I must repeat my question: if you don't fancy sleeping with someone from Asia or Africa, and you're white, isn't that just a matter of taste and preferences? I think the word racist is heavily overused and much is down to self-preservation. Do people from different ethnicities have different characteristics you think? My old teacher in elementary school said all people looked the same. She saw us humans as if we look at magpies (well I can't see much of a difference between them that's for sure). I don’t think it makes you racist, no. Unless the point is something like, “I wouldn’t date a black person, because I think that they’re all criminals”, which is quite racist. People of different ethnicities definitely have different characteristics. They can be social, cultural, or genetic. I can take the genotype of a random person, plot it and without knowing that person’s ethnicity beforehand, I can give a very decent guess as to whether they are African, African American, South-East Asian, European etc. I have always and will always continue to see people as individuals. It's when someone can't do that anymore it's getting wrong. Then they talk about us and them. To say "they're all criminals" would be both wrong, false and 100% racist. It was interesting growing up and at the age 10-12 during three years have the most extreme communist as your female head teacher at school you could ever imagine! If I had said there are genetic differences between different ethnicities I would probably be punished with some extra time there all alone when the school was closed.
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Post by henry on Jun 2, 2024 19:13:17 GMT
That German knife attack is unbelievable. The perpetrator is stabbing people, members of the public subdue him, the police turn up, pull the people off the attacker (one of whom looks like he's being handcuffed by officers) who then proceeds to stab a policeman before being shot. Edit: Turns out the attacker initially targeted a politician. Clearly the fault of white kids singing who the fuck is allah. Wir schaffen das
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Post by knype on Jun 2, 2024 19:19:29 GMT
Hate crimes against Christians have increased in Jerusalem since October 7 People that commit hate crimes against anyone due to their Religion should be published Anyone preaching hate crimes against another Religion should be sent to Gaol I'm an Atheist and I can understand this very simple concept So do you agree with what they did ? Or should the perpetrators be jailed ?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 2, 2024 19:19:51 GMT
What do you think of what he said knype? What do you have to say about the link I shared Paul ? What link? I'll respond to it, if you can point me in the right direction but you said that some prominent posters hadn't talked much about what Andy said, so please, as a prominent poster yourself, you go first, what are your thoughts on what he said?
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