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Post by ChesterStokie on May 29, 2023 12:59:26 GMT
Unless your a SAF 10 years in the same job feels long enough to me.
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Post by jokker on May 29, 2023 13:00:56 GMT
Maybe my memory serves me poorly, but didn't Rooster fill in the intermittently vacant manager's position once or twice? Whether or not he was ever offered the job permantly and just turned it down because he preferred to continue where he wouldn't be sacked (or so he thought until now), we'll probably never know, but is it just possible that AN saw him as a potential threat to his own seat? The WBA home game with Delap and we were dreadful that night and he was assisting Lambert whilst he was here I don't remember the match but does a team going through a bad patch and "dreadful that night" become the caretaker's fault or is it the logical consequence of the previous bad manager's?
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Post by chuckrocky on May 29, 2023 13:01:14 GMT
How well is it really working though? Baring the players we signed as 17/18 year olds like Souttar, Collins and Campbell, no one has come through and become a regular first team player. We’re miles behind clubs like Blackburn, Birmingham and Middlesbrough who seem to bring academy players through every season that play regularly in the Championship. I partially agree with your analysis that the transition from youth setup to first team appears to be not working, and that we haven't seen academy graduates playing with regularity or at all. However, the question is if that's a sign that the academy isn't working or that the managers that we've employed have been unwilling to blood youngsters with no or limited experience at our level thus depriving them of experience at our level...? There is definitely a better pathway at other clubs for young players, of that there’s no doubt. But how many youth players have we let go that have gone on to have good careers at this level? Brereton Diaz is the obvious one but apart from him I’m struggling to think of any.
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Post by callas12 on May 29, 2023 13:02:32 GMT
The academy was working well. The changes needed are at the other end of the club. And decisions like this shouldn’t be done by a club who could easily be sacked by November. How well is it really working though? Baring the players we signed as 17/18 year olds like Souttar, Collins and Campbell, no one has come through and become a regular first team player. We’re miles behind clubs like Blackburn, Birmingham and Middlesbrough who seem to bring academy players through every season that play regularly in the Championship. I was thinking this. I'm open to change and will hopefully see a better production line than we've seen ourselves in the last few years. I keep hearing that the academies producing but who really have we produced that's gone to be a staple & secure player with Stoke, or has left us after a meaningful contribution to bigger and better things? Even during the Premier League years we had Wilko, Dicko & latterly Edwards. More recent Souttar & Collins. Yes Tyrese has made the first team and has done very well in patches, but let's not forget he was a product of Man City initially. As Souttar was at Dundee United and spent most of his academy time on loan with Joey Barton. We haven't been producing talent on a regular enough basis for me to say the current academy set up is not beyond change and a different direction. Oliver Shenton was predicted to be great, he's currently at Chorley in the National League North. Thibaud Verlinden likewise, was meant to be the next thing but faded away abroad. Joe Bursik, highly rated and deemed good enough to play for England U21's but Stoke seemed to not help him realise his potential.. Plenty others I could name and add to this list
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 29, 2023 13:03:32 GMT
The WBA home game with Delap and we were dreadful that night and he was assisting Lambert whilst he was here I don't remember the match but does a team going through a bad patch and "dreadful that night" become the caretaker's fault or is it the logical consequence of the previous bad manager's? We were poor before that game but even worse against WBA in my opinion
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Post by Olgrligm on May 29, 2023 13:04:50 GMT
Just playing devil's advocate, how many of the academy successes have there been who weren't signed for a decent fee at age 17/18? Collins, Souttar, Bursik, Campbell and Wright-Phillips all were. Maybe Connor Taylor? Even Taylor was 18 when he signed. Tom Edwards is the only player to have come through the age groups and play a decent number of first team games for a good number of years. He's not properly broken through yet, but maybe Tezgel?
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Post by jokker on May 29, 2023 13:05:08 GMT
I partially agree with your analysis that the transition from youth setup to first team appears to be not working, and that we haven't seen academy graduates playing with regularity or at all. However, the question is if that's a sign that the academy isn't working or that the managers that we've employed have been unwilling to blood youngsters with no or limited experience at our level thus depriving them of experience at our level...? There is definitely a better pathway at other clubs for young players, of that there’s no doubt. But how many youth players have we let go that have gone on to have good careers at this level? Brereton Diaz is the obvious one but apart from him I’m struggling to think of any. I know where this is headed, because we've had that discussion on here many times. However, the fact that they haven't become world beaters at other clubs doesn't mean that with a careful transition they wouldn't have become first team squad members at the very least. But the club managements appear to have just given up on them as soon as they graduated.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:06:29 GMT
How well is it really working though? Baring the players we signed as 17/18 year olds like Souttar, Collins and Campbell, no one has come through and become a regular first team player. We’re miles behind clubs like Blackburn, Birmingham and Middlesbrough who seem to bring academy players through every season that play regularly in the Championship. I was thinking this. I'm open to change and will hopefully see a better production line than we've seen ourselves in the last few years. I keep hearing that the academies producing but who really have we produced that's gone to be a staple & secure player with Stoke, or has left us after a meaningful contribution to bigger and better things? Even during the Premier League years we had Wilko, Dicko & latterly Edwards. More recent Souttar & Collins. Yes Tyrese has made the first team and has done very well in patches, but let's not forget he was a product of Man City initially. As Souttar was at Dundee United and spent most of his academy time on loan with Joey Barton. We haven't been producing talent on a regular enough basis for me to say the current academy set up is not beyond change and a different direction. So bar 35m quids of talent and raise that to 40 if you include Campbell. And then I’d say 60 if we use Tezgel right, it’s done nothing….
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Post by silsdenstokie on May 29, 2023 13:07:53 GMT
I get Delap and O’shea leaving but this (and Walker) is a headscratcher
All the best Rooster
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Post by gingerninja on May 29, 2023 13:08:43 GMT
I think I vaguely remember Alex Neil saying around March time, there will be decisions made that people may not understand, but in time they will hopefully see the benefit?. Is this and Rich Walker some of them?.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:09:21 GMT
I get Delap and O’shea leaving but this (and Walker) is a headscratcher All the best Rooster And the rest. Watch this space.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 29, 2023 13:11:02 GMT
I was told last February that Russell and Neil hardly spoke a word to each other so it’s come as no surprise to me that he’s off. The worrying thing for me is the amount of staff that are leaving all at once🤔It seems like the new regime are having a big say on who goes/stays so let’s hope for the clubs sake they know what they’re doing
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Post by callas12 on May 29, 2023 13:11:11 GMT
I was thinking this. I'm open to change and will hopefully see a better production line than we've seen ourselves in the last few years. I keep hearing that the academies producing but who really have we produced that's gone to be a staple & secure player with Stoke, or has left us after a meaningful contribution to bigger and better things? Even during the Premier League years we had Wilko, Dicko & latterly Edwards. More recent Souttar & Collins. Yes Tyrese has made the first team and has done very well in patches, but let's not forget he was a product of Man City initially. As Souttar was at Dundee United and spent most of his academy time on loan with Joey Barton. We haven't been producing talent on a regular enough basis for me to say the current academy set up is not beyond change and a different direction. So bar 35m quids of talent and raise that to 40 if you include Campbell. And then I’d say 60 if we use Tezgel right, it’s done nothing…. I'm not saying it hasn't done anything, just hasn't produced enough for the reputation its got. & it really hasn't benefited our first team really has it else we wouldn't have had 5 Bottom half Championship finishes in succession.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:12:05 GMT
So bar 35m quids of talent and raise that to 40 if you include Campbell. And then I’d say 60 if we use Tezgel right, it’s done nothing…. I'm not saying it hasn't done anything, just hasn't produced enough for the reputation its got. & it really hasn't benefited our first team really has it else we wouldn't have had 5 Bottom half Championship finishes in succession. Isn’t that because of crap managers?
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Post by chuckrocky on May 29, 2023 13:15:27 GMT
There is definitely a better pathway at other clubs for young players, of that there’s no doubt. But how many youth players have we let go that have gone on to have good careers at this level? Brereton Diaz is the obvious one but apart from him I’m struggling to think of any. I know where this is headed, because we've had that discussion on here many times. However, the fact that they haven't become world beaters at other clubs doesn't mean that with a careful transition they wouldn't have become first team squad members at the very least. But the club managements appear to have just given up on them as soon as they graduated. It’s not that they aren’t becoming world beaters at other clubs, it’s that most of them don’t even make a career from the game. If they were going and getting a league one or league two club and playing regularly in the football league I could buy the argument that with better nurturing they could have been developed into first team players for us but it’s extremely rare that that is the case.
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Post by chuckrocky on May 29, 2023 13:19:22 GMT
I was thinking this. I'm open to change and will hopefully see a better production line than we've seen ourselves in the last few years. I keep hearing that the academies producing but who really have we produced that's gone to be a staple & secure player with Stoke, or has left us after a meaningful contribution to bigger and better things? Even during the Premier League years we had Wilko, Dicko & latterly Edwards. More recent Souttar & Collins. Yes Tyrese has made the first team and has done very well in patches, but let's not forget he was a product of Man City initially. As Souttar was at Dundee United and spent most of his academy time on loan with Joey Barton. We haven't been producing talent on a regular enough basis for me to say the current academy set up is not beyond change and a different direction. So bar 35m quids of talent and raise that to 40 if you include Campbell. And then I’d say 60 if we use Tezgel right, it’s done nothing…. Surely the recruitment team deserve the credit for the sales of Souttar and Collins and potential sale of Campbell? After all we didn’t exactly “produce” them.
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Post by callas12 on May 29, 2023 13:19:57 GMT
I'm not saying it hasn't done anything, just hasn't produced enough for the reputation its got. & it really hasn't benefited our first team really has it else we wouldn't have had 5 Bottom half Championship finishes in succession. Isn’t that because of crap managers? Who knows what the reason is, possibly so. But as I mentioned, I'm open to change, perhaps for the rave reviews the academy receives, it's required tinkering with and if its for the better it'll be a decision well made. The clubs been in a rut for years and we're starting to see the foundations being relaid. If it doesn't work out then this obviously wasn't an area of concern. But change isn't always a bad think & if the new structure has seen areas it can improve things, let's see how things go before being to critical at this stage. Richard Walker departed this week saying this "Rest assured Potters fans, there are plenty more players to come through the academy. "I look forward to seeing Stoke City go from strength to strength and wish the club all the best for the future" That's a positive response from someone departing our current structure, I'm optimistic that the changes are necessary and happy to see something different happening at the club, it's needed change for along time now. Why is change always viewed as a negative thing?!
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:20:56 GMT
If what I’ve been told is right we will need the following:
Head of Academy Coaching Lead Professional Development Phase Coach (u18s manager) Professional Development Phase Coach Senior Professional Development Phase Coach (U21s manager)
And maybe:
Academy Director Senior Professional Development Phase Coach & Loans Manager
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:22:07 GMT
Isn’t that because of crap managers? Who knows what the reason is, possibly so. But as I mentioned, I'm open to change, perhaps for the rave reviews the academy receives, it's required tinkering with and if its for the better it'll be a decision well made. The clubs been in a rut for years and we're starting to see the foundations being relaid. If it doesn't work out then this obviously wasn't an area of concern. But change isn't always a bad think & if the new structure has seen areas it can improve things, let's see how things go before being to critical at this stage. Richard Walker departed this week saying this "Rest assured Potters fans, there are plenty more players to come through the academy. "I look forward to seeing Stoke City go from strength to strength and wish the club all the best for the future" That's a positive response from someone departing our current structure, I'm optimistic that the changes are necessary and happy to see something different happening at the club, it's need change for along time. Why is change always viewed as a bad thing?! Because we haven’t seen change where it’s needed and this feels very very drastic.
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Post by theonlooker on May 29, 2023 13:23:08 GMT
If what I’ve been told is right we will need the following: Head of Academy Coaching Lead Professional Development Phase Coach (u18s manager) Professional Development Phase Coach Senior Professional Development Phase Coach (U21s manager) And maybe: Academy Director Senior Professional Development Phase Coach & Loans Manager So we're ripping everything up and starting again by the looks of that? Dear me.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:23:14 GMT
So bar 35m quids of talent and raise that to 40 if you include Campbell. And then I’d say 60 if we use Tezgel right, it’s done nothing…. Surely the recruitment team deserve the credit for the sales of Souttar and Collins and potential sale of Campbell? After all we didn’t exactly “produce” them. All joined at 15/16. I think it’s a combined thanks tbh. There’s still a lot of development there to be done.
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Post by stantheman on May 29, 2023 13:24:06 GMT
Jesus wept what a shit club we have. I firmly believe you’d find solace and peace of mind at some other club, perhaps one you admire more than the one you constantly harangue on this board. ^^^ Post of the month/year/decade ^^^
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:25:24 GMT
I firmly believe you’d find solace and peace of mind at some other club, perhaps one you admire more than the one you constantly harangue on this board. ^^^ Post of the month/year/decade ^^^ If only my haranguing wasn’t for good reason.
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Post by chuckrocky on May 29, 2023 13:27:31 GMT
Surely the recruitment team deserve the credit for the sales of Souttar and Collins and potential sale of Campbell? After all we didn’t exactly “produce” them. All joined at 15/16. I think it’s a combined thanks tbh. There’s still a lot of development there to be done. Souttar was 18 and Campbell 17. Of course we brought them on but it was pretty obvious very early on with all three players that they would become first team players. The argument is why aren’t we producing that calibre of player from our own academy?
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Post by theonlooker on May 29, 2023 13:27:42 GMT
^^^ Post of the month/year/decade ^^^ If only my haranguing wasn’t for good reason. You mean you're not happy with 5 bottom half finishes in a row and hundreds of millions worth of purchases given away for nothing, all backed up by an administrative team that has to be 'harangued' by a supporters led council for two solid years to introduce cashless payments in food kiosks?
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 29, 2023 13:27:53 GMT
Letting the manager run all parts of the club is extremely dangerous territory.
This club never learns.
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Post by stantheman on May 29, 2023 13:31:17 GMT
^^^ Post of the month/year/decade ^^^ If only my haranguing wasn’t for good reason. You are off the scale with your constant, never ending posts of 'look at me' negativity. Within seconds of someone creating a thread, you can't help yourself by posting more drivel. You call it 'haranguing', the rest of us call it written diarrhea. Have a day off, go and get some fresh air and daylight
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Post by callas12 on May 29, 2023 13:32:21 GMT
Who knows what the reason is, possibly so. But as I mentioned, I'm open to change, perhaps for the rave reviews the academy receives, it's required tinkering with and if its for the better it'll be a decision well made. The clubs been in a rut for years and we're starting to see the foundations being relaid. If it doesn't work out then this obviously wasn't an area of concern. But change isn't always a bad think & if the new structure has seen areas it can improve things, let's see how things go before being to critical at this stage. Richard Walker departed this week saying this "Rest assured Potters fans, there are plenty more players to come through the academy. "I look forward to seeing Stoke City go from strength to strength and wish the club all the best for the future" That's a positive response from someone departing our current structure, I'm optimistic that the changes are necessary and happy to see something different happening at the club, it's need change for along time. Why is change always viewed as a bad thing?! Because we haven’t seen change where it’s needed and this feels very very drastic. I'm looking at it that Neil has been in charge since last September & has observed things during the remainder of the season. That's almost 8mths of him assessing what's right and wrong within the workings of the club. That doesn't seem drastic to me. If he'd come in when he did and made all these changes to coaching staff by October I'd tend to agree with you but over time he's made gradual changes. I'm guessing the Liam Delap situation and recall led to Rorys departure when it occurred but Alex Neil worked with John O'Shea until the seasons conclusion before he departed. & now its clear the academy set up is going through change aswell. Perhaps given the right recruitment system Alex Neil will work with and utilise the Academy system more than he's currently doing. With the season a few weeks completed now this is exactly the right time for behind the scenes changes to be made. All ready to start from the same page come Pre Season commencement coming around. New staff, new players, new objectives, it's all hopefully positive strides & has got rid of the vast majority of the relegation noose that's been hanging around our club for far to long now. The old regime of Scholes etc kept promising we'd learn from our mistakes and be better going forwards!! Well absolutely nothing changed, that's a fact by our constant failings and league positions. & for those suggesting Alex Neil doesn't utilise the younger home grown players, he definitely tapped into that whilst he was with Sunderland.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:36:33 GMT
All joined at 15/16. I think it’s a combined thanks tbh. There’s still a lot of development there to be done. Souttar was 18 and Campbell 17. Of course we brought them on but it was pretty obvious very early on with all three players that they would become first team players. The argument is why aren’t we producing that calibre of player from our own academy? Campbell joined at 16 and Souttar was 16/17 and played in the u18/ for a year.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2023 13:37:38 GMT
If only my haranguing wasn’t for good reason. You are off the scale with your constant, never ending posts of 'look at me' negativity. Within seconds of someone creating a thread, you can't help yourself by posting more drivel. You call it 'haranguing', the rest of us call it written diarrhea. Have a day off, go and get some fresh air and daylight We’ve been shit for 7 years, what are you going on about? You accept this shit. You are part of the problem.
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