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Post by a on Jun 20, 2022 9:51:09 GMT
Stuck record I know, but this shows how utterly mismanaged this club has been for years now. It shows the nature of football and how teams outside the elite clubs are only ever a couple of bad seasons away from things unraveling. When all's said and done it's all about getting recruitment right and the single biggest mistake in the last few years was the Rowett appointment and the £50m+ we wasted chasing an immediate return to the Premier League, it was far more damaging than relegation itself....... I’d say it was secondary to relegation but yeah it has fucked us up big time. Thing is though, aside from the players signed who didn’t cut it, there appear to be issues in the background which have had an impact on our fortunes. Look at Luton and Millwall, both have outperformed us with smaller budgets and two ex managers. Had we stayed up we would’ve had the opportunity to invest without the time bomb of FFP that comes more readily in the Championship. It is what it is now, and we can probably expect to be mid table for the foreseeable.
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Post by a on Jun 20, 2022 9:52:22 GMT
Fascinating stuff from Swiss Ramble as always. We are in a lucky position financially, which is a good job as we have been in a diabolical position football wise for four years now, especially considering what we've spent overall in that time. Hopefully the leaner fitter business model will somehow bring stability and decent home form, leading to better gate receipts, which - along with commercial income - are going to be an important component of our turnover in future years. That and selling off best players Kit sales are up so that's a start! How will it bring decent home form?
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Post by nottsover60 on Jun 20, 2022 9:52:35 GMT
My take from that is anyone who puts £338 million into a football club can do what they like and have the right to run the football club how they see fit. Excluding buying the ground it has been £195 million over the last 10 seasons so that includes 6 in the Premier. I have invested through my season ticket £4,000 plus the odd cup match. My maths isn't great but with average gates of a generous 25000 and assuming everyone including concessions was paying the same premium rate as me, the fans in the equivalent period would have invested £100 million and have received some entertainment for the money.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 20, 2022 10:47:38 GMT
My take from that is anyone who puts £338 million into a football club can do what they like and have the right to run the football club how they see fit. Excluding buying the ground it has been £195 million over the last 10 seasons so that includes 6 in the Premier. I have invested through my season ticket £4,000 plus the odd cup match. My maths isn't great but with average gates of a generous 25000 and assuming everyone including concessions was paying the same premium rate as me, the fans in the equivalent period would have invested £100 million and have received some entertainment for the money. They’ve ran us terribly. Spunking money up the wall shouldn’t see them not be criticised.
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 20, 2022 11:03:28 GMT
My take from that is anyone who puts £338 million into a football club can do what they like and have the right to run the football club how they see fit. Excluding buying the ground it has been £195 million over the last 10 seasons so that includes 6 in the Premier. I have invested through my season ticket £4,000 plus the odd cup match. My maths isn't great but with average gates of a generous 25000 and assuming everyone including concessions was paying the same premium rate as me, the fans in the equivalent period would have invested £100 million and have received some entertainment for the money. They’ve ran us terribly. Spunking money up the wall shouldn’t see them not be criticised. They haven't ran us terribly they have made 3 bad managerial appointments in a row and backed all 3 who unfortunately nearly all signed complete duffers.
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Post by stokeson on Jun 20, 2022 11:14:17 GMT
They’ve ran us terribly. Spunking money up the wall shouldn’t see them not be criticised. They haven't ran us terribly they have made 3 bad managerial appointments in a row and backed all 3 who unfortunately nearly all signed complete duffers. Three bad managerial appointments is the definition of terrible management....
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Post by bunnyscfc on Jun 20, 2022 11:16:17 GMT
How can you say that this club hasn't been terribly run for the last half a decade? It's literally there in black and white, backed up by relegation and four bottom half finishes
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 20, 2022 11:25:17 GMT
My take from that is anyone who puts £338 million into a football club can do what they like and have the right to run the football club how they see fit. Excluding buying the ground it has been £195 million over the last 10 seasons so that includes 6 in the Premier. I have invested through my season ticket £4,000 plus the odd cup match. My maths isn't great but with average gates of a generous 25000 and assuming everyone including concessions was paying the same premium rate as me, the fans in the equivalent period would have invested £100 million and have received some entertainment for the money. They’ve ran us terribly. Spunking money up the wall shouldn’t see them not be criticised. They've run the club as fans and that doesn't work but at least they are now moving in the right direction hopefully.
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 20, 2022 12:21:45 GMT
How can you say that this club hasn't been terribly run for the last half a decade? It's literally there in black and white, backed up by relegation and four bottom half finishes They've haven't run the club any differently to when they were supposedly brilliant and successful owners, they've spent money on players and managers who haven't worked out, that happens spending money does not guarentee success, not spending money almost always guarentees you won't be a success.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Jun 20, 2022 12:45:26 GMT
They were raking the money in by being in the top league. As soon as you go down you need a better plan than throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks. So. they really have ran it differently as we weren't getting the same revenue in.
No plan, no vision, no structure.
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 20, 2022 13:28:35 GMT
Maybe now people will see just what a tough job the manager has had, and it really isn't as simple as pointing at Luton and Huddersfield and using them as a stick to have a go at him with. Our problems clearly won't be going away this year either. Yeah fancy only having two (probably three) of the highest wage bills in Championship history, and almost impossibly forgiving and patient bosses with a bottomless pit of cash they're willing to plough into the losses we're generating, in part because of his inability to put us in any remote danger of escaping this shit pit of a division. If anything that thread casts him in an even worse light I don't mean to hijack the thread put ffs a tough job? If there's an easier gig in the division I think you'd do well to find it.
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 20, 2022 13:35:44 GMT
Maybe now people will see just what a tough job the manager has had, and it really isn't as simple as pointing at Luton and Huddersfield and using them as a stick to have a go at him with. Our problems clearly won't be going away this year either. Yeah fancy only having two (probably three) of the highest wage bills in Championship history, and almost impossibly forgiving and patient bosses with a bottomless pit of cash they're willing to plough into the losses we're generating, in part because of his inability to put us in any remote danger of escaping this shit pit of a division. If anything that thread casts him in an even worse light I don't mean to hijack the thread put ffs a tough job? If there's an easier gig in the division I think you'd do well to find it. Isn't the wage bill a huge red herring though? How much of that wage bill takes into account the players we needed off the wage bill for FFP and were out on loan etc or even subsidised? A better measure would be the incomings to replace those players as we hack away at the expenses. Where do those salaries sit in the main? Above average, below average? That's the true measure of where we are, and not some warped picture based on a load of players we need off the books.
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 20, 2022 13:42:20 GMT
Yeah fancy only having two (probably three) of the highest wage bills in Championship history, and almost impossibly forgiving and patient bosses with a bottomless pit of cash they're willing to plough into the losses we're generating, in part because of his inability to put us in any remote danger of escaping this shit pit of a division. If anything that thread casts him in an even worse light I don't mean to hijack the thread put ffs a tough job? If there's an easier gig in the division I think you'd do well to find it. Isn't the wage bill a huge red herring though? How much of that wage bill takes into account the players we needed off the wage bill for FFP and were out on loan etc or even subsidised? A better measure would be the incomings to replace those players as we hack away at the expenses. Where do those salaries sit in the main? Above average, below average? That's the true measure of where we are, and not some warped picture based on a load of players we need off the books. It's a mitigating factor to consider, yes. Overall I don't think it does much for him but as I say I'll not go on about it.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jun 20, 2022 14:18:17 GMT
They’ve ran us terribly. Spunking money up the wall shouldn’t see them not be criticised. They haven't ran us terribly they have made 3 bad managerial appointments in a row and backed all 3 who unfortunately nearly all signed complete duffers. Chucking 50mil at a riskyish appointment was pretty poor and lacked any sort of good management, even half that should have seen us build a good base and have a go at promotion, instead they spunked it in one go crippling the club for a good few years.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 20, 2022 14:23:29 GMT
Fascinating stuff from Swiss Ramble as always. We are in a lucky position financially, which is a good job as we have been in a diabolical position football wise for four years now, especially considering what we've spent overall in that time. Hopefully the leaner fitter business model will somehow bring stability and decent home form, leading to better gate receipts, which - along with commercial income - are going to be an important component of our turnover in future years. That and selling off best players Kit sales are up so that's a start! Which is why you can’t understand them being satisfied with this manager and the dross he produces at home. Crowds are dwindling away and nobody who attends home games can blame them for stopping attending, the entertainment value is close to non existent. Very surprised he’s being allowed to continue. Getting money through the turnstiles is a very important part of championship finances. Does anyone think MON’s football will attract them back never mind grow the fan base.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jun 20, 2022 14:27:07 GMT
It's the ream of catastrophic signings (those with high fees and wages) over three seasons that's almost killed the club. 8 of our 10 record fees were between 2015 and 2018, and 6 of those were failures here, with 2 signed in the Championship (I feel harsh grouping Ince in with Imbula and Wimmer). And that top 10 doesn't include Vokes or Etebo.
Those players (Vokes excluded) were all at an age with resale value but instead ended up being a millstone around the club's neck, losing the club £millions year after year. It's going to take a long time to recover from that.
It's only with hindsight the Championship managerial appointments look bad too. Jones was the kind of manager many fans wanted and there was a fair bit of excitement about his appointment.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 20, 2022 14:27:37 GMT
How can you say that this club hasn't been terribly run for the last half a decade? It's literally there in black and white, backed up by relegation and four bottom half finishes They've haven't run the club any differently to when they were supposedly brilliant and successful owners, they've spent money on players and managers who haven't worked out, that happens spending money does not guarentee success, not spending money almost always guarentees you won't be a success. They have never run the club brilliantly. What they have been really good at is putting money into the club. The way they actually run the club is decades out of date.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jun 20, 2022 15:40:05 GMT
They’ve ran us terribly. Spunking money up the wall shouldn’t see them not be criticised. They haven't ran us terribly they have made 3 bad managerial appointments in a row and backed all 3 who unfortunately nearly all signed complete duffers. Where’s that sad sac bristoldickinpiss mate? Thought he’d have been all over this like a rash. Seems to show we’re not in the shit financially and Brizzle City are well and truly in the smelly stuff. Oh hang on that wasn’t how he said it would pan out was it? He ought to get his typewriter out again I’m sure there’s someone else he could complain about to deflect attention away from Bristol.
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 20, 2022 15:54:00 GMT
They've haven't run the club any differently to when they were supposedly brilliant and successful owners, they've spent money on players and managers who haven't worked out, that happens spending money does not guarentee success, not spending money almost always guarentees you won't be a success. They have never run the club brilliantly. What they have been really good at is putting money into the club. The way they actually run the club is decades out of date. Imagine the lasting legacy we could have made in the Prem with their megabucks and a more prudent, progressive approach. No reason at all we couldn't be there now, firmly established as one of the 7-8-9 teams, pushing for Europe every year and troubling the cups. What a massive waste. Ah well maybe we can have another go one day...
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 20, 2022 16:19:39 GMT
Imagine the lasting legacy we could have made in the Prem with their megabucks and a more prudent, progressive approach. No reason at all we couldn't be there now, firmly established as one of the 7-8-9 teams, pushing for Europe every year and troubling the cups. What a massive waste. Ah well maybe we can have another go one day... Don't know that I'd use the word prudent but yes we could have still been there even more embedded if only they'd spent some of the money that they spent in January and after relegation the Summer before, instead of thinking ambition was signing a bloke who used to play for Real Madrid and was more interested in being a pop star than a footballer. Thinking you could replace Arnie with a free transfer who'd be scared of his own reflection in a mirror (mind you Choupo was a big lad, just a massive pussy) and spending £28M on centre backs when we should have managed to cover the position on a fraction of that and spent the rest and more on getting goals into the side. I'm not having prudent, we had no net spend the Summer before we got relegated. At that point we lacked ambition and investment. Then we spent like drunken sailors when it was too late. They could have kept us up by investing a fraction of the money they've lost since, complete and utter fucking idiots.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jun 20, 2022 16:33:33 GMT
Don't know that I'd use the word prudent but yes we could have still been there even more embedded if only they'd spent some of the money that they spent in January and after relegation the Summer before, instead of thinking ambition was signing a bloke who used to play for Real Madrid and was more interested in being a pop star than a footballer. Thinking you could replace Arnie with a free transfer who'd be scared of his own reflection in a mirror (mind you Choupo was a big lad, just a massive pussy) and spending £28M on centre backs when we should have managed to cover the position on a fraction of that and spent the rest and more on getting goals into the side. I'm not having prudent, we had no net spend the Summer before we got relegated. At that point we lacked ambition and investment. Then we spent like drunken sailors when it was too late. They could have kept us up by investing a fraction of the money they've lost since, complete and utter fucking idiots. Can’t argue with that.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 20, 2022 16:54:32 GMT
Wage wise, won't 21/22 also take into account the massive player cull we went through last summer? Starting from May 2021 Wimmer, Lindsay, Woods, Bauer, Mikel, Martins Indi, Ndiaye, Vokes, Gregory, McClean, Batth, Davies and Ince all left + the Adobe and Etebo loan deals. That said, didn't we pay up early on some of the departures? so fees may be involved there. I think this is key. Nice thread by Swiss Ramble but a lot of the numbers aren't relevant now. We wrote off £45 mil worth of crap players as a COVID one off, plus the wage bill probably only went down hard in May '21. On the other hand no parachute or stadium sales.
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Post by nonameface on Jun 20, 2022 17:01:36 GMT
Maybe now people will see just what a tough job the manager has had, and it really isn't as simple as pointing at Luton and Huddersfield and using them as a stick to have a go at him with. Our problems clearly won't be going away this year either. Yeah fancy only having two (probably three) of the highest wage bills in Championship history, and almost impossibly forgiving and patient bosses with a bottomless pit of cash they're willing to plough into the losses we're generating, in part because of his inability to put us in any remote danger of escaping this shit pit of a division. If anything that thread casts him in an even worse light I don't mean to hijack the thread put ffs a tough job? If there's an easier gig in the division I think you'd do well to find it. yeah Rowett and Jones both really struggled to find easier gigs....
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 20, 2022 17:12:27 GMT
Don't know that I'd use the word prudent but yes we could have still been there even more embedded if only they'd spent some of the money that they spent in January and after relegation the Summer before, instead of thinking ambition was signing a bloke who used to play for Real Madrid and was more interested in being a pop star than a footballer. Thinking you could replace Arnie with a free transfer who'd be scared of his own reflection in a mirror (mind you Choupo was a big lad, just a massive pussy) and spending £28M on centre backs when we should have managed to cover the position on a fraction of that and spent the rest and more on getting goals into the side. I'm not having prudent, we had no net spend the Summer before we got relegated. At that point we lacked ambition and investment. Then we spent like drunken sailors when it was too late. They could have kept us up by investing a fraction of the money they've lost since, complete and utter fucking idiots. I just meant prudent as in sensible (in terms of due diligence, contract length etc). Not necessarily conservative.
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 20, 2022 17:26:03 GMT
They haven't ran us terribly they have made 3 bad managerial appointments in a row and backed all 3 who unfortunately nearly all signed complete duffers. Where’s that sad sac bristoldickinpiss mate? Thought he’d have been all over this like a rash. Seems to show we’re not in the shit financially and Brizzle City are well and truly in the smelly stuff. Oh hang on that wasn’t how he said it would pan out was it? He ought to get his typewriter out again I’m sure there’s someone else he could complain about to deflect attention away from Bristol. He's getting stuck into us on their board.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Jun 20, 2022 17:53:34 GMT
Where’s that sad sac bristoldickinpiss mate? Thought he’d have been all over this like a rash. Seems to show we’re not in the shit financially and Brizzle City are well and truly in the smelly stuff. Oh hang on that wasn’t how he said it would pan out was it? He ought to get his typewriter out again I’m sure there’s someone else he could complain about to deflect attention away from Bristol. He's getting stuck into us on their board. I thought my ears were burning 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 20, 2022 18:10:56 GMT
Don't know that I'd use the word prudent but yes we could have still been there even more embedded if only they'd spent some of the money that they spent in January and after relegation the Summer before, instead of thinking ambition was signing a bloke who used to play for Real Madrid and was more interested in being a pop star than a footballer. Thinking you could replace Arnie with a free transfer who'd be scared of his own reflection in a mirror (mind you Choupo was a big lad, just a massive pussy) and spending £28M on centre backs when we should have managed to cover the position on a fraction of that and spent the rest and more on getting goals into the side. I'm not having prudent, we had no net spend the Summer before we got relegated. At that point we lacked ambition and investment. Then we spent like drunken sailors when it was too late. They could have kept us up by investing a fraction of the money they've lost since, complete and utter fucking idiots. I just meant prudent as in sensible (in terms of due diligence, contract length etc). Not necessarily conservative. We were reasonably sensible for 9 seasons. Despite what some on here try to make out we didn't have an undue ammount of bad transfers (if over 50% work out you're doing really well) The price you pay doesn't increase the likelihood of it working out at all in fact the opposite. So in short the likes of Imbula, Berahino, Wimmer should not have been a surprise, happens at all clubs. That our failures made the owners reluctant to invest is on them. Again contract lengths were appropriate, when you're spending big money you protect your investment 4/5 year deals for big money buys are standard. The owners big mistakes were not sacking Hughes when it was clear he was in a malaise for well over a year before they pulled the trigger, then replacing him with Paul fucking Lambert and failiure to provide a net transfer budget the Summer before relegation and ensure it was spent in the right areas of the squad. Anyone with an ounce of sense should have already been having misgivings about Hughes confused direction. When he comes to you and says he wants to spend £28M on CB's and replace our main attacking threat of the previous two seasons with a freebie and a loan that should have confirmed their doubts but PC couldn't see what all the fuss was about.
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 20, 2022 18:40:13 GMT
I just meant prudent as in sensible (in terms of due diligence, contract length etc). Not necessarily conservative. We were reasonably sensible for 9 seasons. Despite what some on here try to make out we didn't have an undue ammount of bad transfers (if over 50% work out you're doing really well) The price you pay doesn't increase the likelihood of it working out at all in fact the opposite. So in short the likes of Imbula, Berahino, Wimmer should not have been a surprise, happens at all clubs. That our failures made the owners reluctant to invest is on them. Again contract lengths were appropriate, when you're spending big money you protect your investment 4/5 year deals for big money buys are standard. The owners big mistakes were not sacking Hughes when it was clear he was in a malaise for well over a year before they pulled the trigger, then replacing him with Paul fucking Lambert and failiure to provide a net transfer budget the Summer before relegation and ensure it was spent in the right areas of the squad. Anyone with an ounce of sense should have already been having misgivings about Hughes confused direction. When he comes to you and says he wants to spend £28M on CB's and replace our main attacking threat of the previous two seasons with a freebie and a loan that should have confirmed their doubts but PC couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Fair enough, although I'm not quite sure you can put the catastrophic outcome of our three biggest-ever signings down to standard football ups and downs
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Jun 20, 2022 18:47:06 GMT
Wait, so unless last seasons accounts show a 3 million profit we've breached ffp because the two years before cumulatively show a 42 million loss?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 21, 2022 7:40:00 GMT
We were reasonably sensible for 9 seasons. Despite what some on here try to make out we didn't have an undue ammount of bad transfers (if over 50% work out you're doing really well) The price you pay doesn't increase the likelihood of it working out at all in fact the opposite. So in short the likes of Imbula, Berahino, Wimmer should not have been a surprise, happens at all clubs. That our failures made the owners reluctant to invest is on them. Again contract lengths were appropriate, when you're spending big money you protect your investment 4/5 year deals for big money buys are standard. The owners big mistakes were not sacking Hughes when it was clear he was in a malaise for well over a year before they pulled the trigger, then replacing him with Paul fucking Lambert and failiure to provide a net transfer budget the Summer before relegation and ensure it was spent in the right areas of the squad. Anyone with an ounce of sense should have already been having misgivings about Hughes confused direction. When he comes to you and says he wants to spend £28M on CB's and replace our main attacking threat of the previous two seasons with a freebie and a loan that should have confirmed their doubts but PC couldn't see what all the fuss was about. Fair enough, although I'm not quite sure you can put the catastrophic outcome of our three biggest-ever signings down to standard football ups and downs Signings gone wrong are swallowed by premier league clubs at levels far in excess of those quite routinely. They pale into insignificance in comparison to the losses they have taken since and the collapse in the value of the club. £70M for the stadium, they’d be lucky to get £70M for the whole shebang.
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