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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 3, 2022 20:32:10 GMT
I'd love it, if we as football fans could go anywhere in the country, in the world even and be treated as just another person. Sadly we aren't and I can understand why. I don't understand why football is the only major sport where fans have to be segregated but some who've posted on here in faux outrage about prejudicial views wouldn't have it any other way. I don't understand why the tribal, goading, hate filled nature of many football supporters is not challenged and I don't understand why people who partake in it and perpetuate it squeal so loudly about a mild case of stereotyping and prejudice. You're missing the point they say because somehow they think they get to dictate what the point is. At least that is one thing we can agree on, it doesn't matter what colour, what religion, what your job is, how much money you have in this country as soon as you attend a football match in this country you are automatically a second rate citizen, our very first away game in the premier league I attended was the 0-0 draw at Anfield and as soon as we left the train we had video cameras rammed in our face and I mean millimeters rather than inches, I asked the police why all the animosity and they just said move on before we do it. That of course is not the only incident there are 100's but unfortunately we just accept it,I was at Arsenal away and we got rammed by police horses minding our own eating chips and for no reason they charged, I had a right a go and the police started filming me so I stood straight in front of him and said great, please show this to David Cameron (the then PM) and ask him why we get treated like shit for no reason what so ever, he put the camera down and told us to go home! It’s not good i’m not sure what the answer is. Clearly it’s not right to be rude/agressive to decent fans but in the same respect there are still “fans” out there who over the last few weeks have assaulted players on the pitch who due to lack of police numbers have been given to easy an opportunity to take pot shots. I guess footballs pretty unpredictable and no one knows how things on and off the pitch are going to turn out. Whether it’s police or fans the bad minority will always ruin it for the good majority.
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Post by alsagerstokie on Jun 3, 2022 20:51:02 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed .. What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England. Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future. Of course there wasn't Scouse, nothing like, it's complete and utter horseshit and in the fullness of time, the lies will be exposed for exactly what they are and I wouldn't be surprised if we see resignations as a result. This screeen capture was taken at 21.05, just where did this crowd of 40,000 fans with fake tickets disappear to, did they vanish into thin air?
I agree. I can definitely see them being banned from hosting anything for a while.
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 3, 2022 21:01:02 GMT
At least that is one thing we can agree on, it doesn't matter what colour, what religion, what your job is, how much money you have in this country as soon as you attend a football match in this country you are automatically a second rate citizen, our very first away game in the premier league I attended was the 0-0 draw at Anfield and as soon as we left the train we had video cameras rammed in our face and I mean millimeters rather than inches, I asked the police why all the animosity and they just said move on before we do it. That of course is not the only incident there are 100's but unfortunately we just accept it,I was at Arsenal away and we got rammed by police horses minding our own eating chips and for no reason they charged, I had a right a go and the police started filming me so I stood straight in front of him and said great, please show this to David Cameron (the then PM) and ask him why we get treated like shit for no reason what so ever, he put the camera down and told us to go home! It’s not good i’m not sure what the answer is. Clearly it’s not right to be rude/agressive to decent fans but in the same respect there are still “fans” out there who over the last few weeks have assaulted players on the pitch who due to lack of police numbers have been given to easy an opportunity to take pot shots. I guess footballs pretty unpredictable and no one knows how things on and off the pitch are going to turn out. Whether it’s police or fans the bad minority will always ruin it for the good majority. That's the thing mate 2 wrongs don't make a right and as football fans I reckon most on here have experienced that just because you happen to be a football fan you are the enemy.
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Post by Boothen on Jun 3, 2022 21:48:17 GMT
So, is anybody going to address the massive elephant in the room, or are the French still ignoring the fact that vast swathes of Paris are no go areas due to all the elephants?
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Post by alsagerstokie on Jun 3, 2022 22:10:10 GMT
So, is anybody going to address the massive elephant in the room, or are the French still ignoring the fact that vast swathes of Paris are no go areas due to all the elephants? Isnt part of the complaint they were forced into these areas then ambushed by local gangs?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 3, 2022 22:13:50 GMT
It's not actually a real (no pun intended) apology is it?
They've apologised for fans having to go through what they went through but they haven't said who was responsible for the fans having to go through what they went through. There's nothing in there to suggest that it wasn't still all the fault of the Liverpool fans, as they had claimed originally, indeed ...
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 3, 2022 22:18:45 GMT
So, is anybody going to address the massive elephant in the room, or are the French still ignoring the fact that vast swathes of Paris are no go areas due to all the elephants? Was in France for the Euro's in 2016 and have to say we had a fantastic time ( St Ettienne) and although we had the Russian element, I know plenty who had plenty of problems with the local football eternity. We had nothing but a great time although we were only there for one game.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 4, 2022 1:31:45 GMT
Well what was the capacity of the lapping lane end at Sheffield and they all had tickets . You only have to see the videos of the gates opening to see the number who poured through so I think this falls quite clearly into the victim area . And I guess mr lordb you were not at the Port Vale v Liverpool match 1964 ? Well I was . I was 14 and went with my dad . We sat in the stands and were 10 yards away from the guy who fell through the roof . I saw with my own eyes Liverpool fans break down the gate to the paddock and pour in. Read Wikipedia. Fortunately the vale ground had a running track so this released the crush . They sat/kneeled down on the running track the whole match . I also saw a Liverpool guy with a suitcase. Opened it up to reveal a rope ladder. About 10 to 15 climbed over the wall before police intervened. So u c in a way Hillsboro happened in 1964. At this point Liverpool FC should have learned their lesson and told fans to STAY AT HOME but they didn’t. So for tears after the same behaviour occurred. Of course most teams will have similar fans going hoping to buy a ticket from ticket touts. The point is Liverpool fans go to extremes. I worked in Liverpool for 30 years so please don’t tell me about their culture. Examine the cause don’t bleat about the consequences. And we haven’t even mentioned Heysel. So the history is there and unless the club addresses this blind spot it will happen again for sure. Yes the Paris police and organisation was diabolical. The actions taken outrageous. That’s not the point I am making . Address the cause not the effect . This graphically illustrates the Leppings Lane terrace wasn't over capacity. It's been pointed out dozens of time before too. Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 4, 2022 3:47:20 GMT
Again. What;s going on there??
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Post by toppercorner on Jun 4, 2022 7:06:26 GMT
more footage and interviews www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61685718I was lucky enough to go to the euro's back in 2016 for a game, but it was quite shocking seeing areas of paris as you travelled around. There's one area near the eurostar station that particularly stood out for it's openness in lawlessness. I said to the guy i was with that i can imagine that a small area like this in paris spreads to not only the rest of the city, but around france too. from that one quick glimpse, i made my own mind up that paris 'had gone'. It sounds dramatic, i know but it's meant to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world, but street crime on that scale is a cancer that takes generations to be reduced (if at all). Not only have the french have had major issues with crowd control this season, the police (pre-covid) had free reign to beat and intimidate those yellow vest protestors. It's a culmination of a recent police mindset and the ongoing, and growing street violence in paris, and the liverpool fans were victims of that.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 4, 2022 8:07:49 GMT
more footage and interviews www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61685718I was lucky enough to go to the euro's back in 2016 for a game, but it was quite shocking seeing areas of paris as you travelled around. There's one area near the eurostar station that particularly stood out for it's openness in lawlessness. I said to the guy i was with that i can imagine that a small area like this in paris spreads to not only the rest of the city, but around france too. from that one quick glimpse, i made my own mind up that paris 'had gone'. It sounds dramatic, i know but it's meant to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world, but street crime on that scale is a cancer that takes generations to be reduced (if at all). Not only have the french have had major issues with crowd control this season, the police (pre-covid) had free reign to beat and intimidate those yellow vest protestors. It's a culmination of a recent police mindset and the ongoing, and growing street violence in paris, and the liverpool fans were victims of that. Sounds like the way London’s going too if we’re not careful from my recent couple of trips to Islington and Barking. As you say a beautiful city but there are certain parts outside the square mile that you just don’t go to and feel safe in. Very sad.
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Post by alsagerstokie on Jun 4, 2022 11:17:44 GMT
This now is going beyond Liverpool and Madrid. Paris will need to sort it out because any teams fans could now be at risk.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2022 11:32:02 GMT
Again. What;s going on there??
Obviously Scousers at it again Joe.
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Post by marrer on Jun 4, 2022 12:38:40 GMT
more footage and interviews www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61685718I was lucky enough to go to the euro's back in 2016 for a game, but it was quite shocking seeing areas of paris as you travelled around. There's one area near the eurostar station that particularly stood out for it's openness in lawlessness. I said to the guy i was with that i can imagine that a small area like this in paris spreads to not only the rest of the city, but around france too. from that one quick glimpse, i made my own mind up that paris 'had gone'. It sounds dramatic, i know but it's meant to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world, but street crime on that scale is a cancer that takes generations to be reduced (if at all). Not only have the french have had major issues with crowd control this season, the police (pre-covid) had free reign to beat and intimidate those yellow vest protestors. It's a culmination of a recent police mindset and the ongoing, and growing street violence in paris, and the liverpool fans were victims of that. Sounds like the way London’s going too if we’re not careful from my recent couple of trips to Islington and Barking. As you say a beautiful city but there are certain parts outside the square mile that you just don’t go to and feel safe in. Very sad. I watched that video today; it was absolutely shocking. Nothing to do with football fans misbehaving. It looks very much like a premeditated series of attacks by large number of youths who had nothing to do with the game. I wonder if football fans have now become collateral damage in the eyes of some Police forces. I wonder what would have happened if this was the Olympics or the Rugby World Cup. Either way, it looks to me like the responsibility of the police to maintain law and order and to protect the safety of civilians doesn't extend to football fans like it might to others.
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Post by felonious on Jun 4, 2022 14:17:58 GMT
So, is anybody going to address the massive elephant in the room, or are the French still ignoring the fact that vast swathes of Paris are no go areas due to all the elephants? Was in France for the Euro's in 2016 and have to say we had a fantastic time ( St Ettienne) and although we had the Russian element, I know plenty who had plenty of problems with the local football eternity. We had nothing but a great time although we were only there for one game. St Ettienne have had problems all season along with many other French clubs. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61628488
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 4, 2022 14:31:03 GMT
Sounds like the way London’s going too if we’re not careful from my recent couple of trips to Islington and Barking. As you say a beautiful city but there are certain parts outside the square mile that you just don’t go to and feel safe in. Very sad. I watched that video today; it was absolutely shocking. Nothing to do with football fans misbehaving. It looks very much like a premeditated series of attacks by large number of youths who had nothing to do with the game. I wonder if football fans have now become collateral damage in the eyes of some Police forces. I wonder what would have happened if this was the Olympics or the Rugby World Cup. Either way, it looks to me like the responsibility of the police to maintain law and order and to protect the safety of civilians doesn't extend to football fans like it might to others. It’s a society problem driven by lockdowns and peoples anger with being kept in. The police certainly need to up there game and need to be supported by better recruitment and bigger numbers so they can deal with large scale events better rather than G4s. This needs to be supported by clubs paying for the correct policing rather than badly trained stewarding. Though clearly the 2 sets of fans in Paris have been badly let down by the authorities on the other side of the coin incidents like those in the playoffs can’t be put down to bad policing they’re down to a small minority of fans.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 4, 2022 15:24:15 GMT
I watched that video today; it was absolutely shocking. Nothing to do with football fans misbehaving. It looks very much like a premeditated series of attacks by large number of youths who had nothing to do with the game. I wonder if football fans have now become collateral damage in the eyes of some Police forces. I wonder what would have happened if this was the Olympics or the Rugby World Cup. Either way, it looks to me like the responsibility of the police to maintain law and order and to protect the safety of civilians doesn't extend to football fans like it might to others. It’s a society problem driven by lockdowns and peoples anger with being kept in. The police certainly need to up there game and need to be supported by better recruitment and bigger numbers so they can deal with large scale events better rather than G4s. This needs to be supported by clubs paying for the correct policing rather than badly trained stewarding. Though clearly the 2 sets of fans in Paris have been badly let down by the authorities on the other side of the coin incidents like those in the playoffs can’t be put down to bad policing they’re down to a small minority of fans. They've dealt with large scale events for weeks and months with the yellow vests and handled them equally brutally. It just seems to be the era we're living through in which authoritarianism and intolerance seems to be getting a grip quite widely. It's not a foreign problem alone, here in the UK we've seen the police handle things much more forcefully than we're used to, Sarah Everard vigil for instance. Our government is trying to outlaw disruptive protest. I mean if a protest doesn't cause disruption how are people meant to protest effectively? Silly question as that's the entire point of it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2022 16:36:56 GMT
If they thought the Liverpool supporters were going to be giving them trouble, well they absolutely will be doing so now.
Utter bastards ...
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 4, 2022 17:29:43 GMT
Le Monde video investigation into what happened, they draw damning conclusions (obviously watch with subtitles turned on) ...
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 4, 2022 18:43:06 GMT
Was in France for the Euro's in 2016 and have to say we had a fantastic time ( St Ettienne) and although we had the Russian element, I know plenty who had plenty of problems with the local football eternity. We had nothing but a great time although we were only there for one game. St Ettienne have had problems all season along with many other French clubs. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61628488They had trouble when they got relegated saw the footage and it wasn't good.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 5, 2022 11:13:50 GMT
Again. What;s going on there?? Obviously Scousers at it again Joe.
Obviously mate. The people of Bootle and Croxteth are mad for France v Denmark!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 5, 2022 12:13:02 GMT
Extremely thorough and comprehensive explanation of what happened, it's a very long read mind.
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Post by lordb on Jun 5, 2022 12:32:53 GMT
Extremely thorough and comprehensive explanation of what happened, it's a very long read mind. It's longer than some articles but it only took a few minutes to read How anyone can continue to propagate the ticket less fans lie, or the fans turning up late lie is scandalous.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 5, 2022 12:39:59 GMT
Account from James Beglin, son of Jim.
"After we left the Stade de France, we started to walk towards the nearby ‘La Plaine – Stade de France’ train station. As we got closer, we heard what sounded like two loud gunshots, followed by Liverpool supporters ahead of us turning and running back in the opposite direction. After shouts of “tear gas, tear gas”, we quickly turned and speedily joined those fleeing the vicinity.
We were forced into heading towards the ‘Saint-Denis Porte de Paris’ station (where we had first arrived hours earlier) and we quickly descended into a chaotic situation. Two large gangs of young men were charging through the oncoming crowd of Liverpool fans. What they were running towards, I don’t know, but it was disconcerting.
It was after we’d walked just a little further that the real trouble started. There were gangs of men everywhere and they had clearly been waiting for us. That’s when the ambushes began.
People were saying “protect your pockets”, as many of the thugs ahead had been glaring at anything they could easily steal. I quickly put my hands in my pockets and clenched hold of my phone and wallet. Here we go…
The gangs were jumping and mugging anyone and everyone they could. Fights started to break out all over the place, though none were anything close to fair. Groups of three or four attackers would jump lone Liverpool fans.
A member of our party had broken her foot a month prior and was walking with a limp as a result. She had a handbag and was in a really vulnerable position. Three of us linked arms and formed a human barrier to protect her from any potential attacks from behind.
It was like a post-apocalyptic, lawless hell. Everywhere we looked, people were being mugged and there wasn’t a police officer in sight. No one was safe; I saw women, children and even a poor chap on crutches being attacked by the thugs.
We approached a large underpass to cross below a set of train tracks. As we made our way down the steps and into the darkness, we could see the gangs lined up along each wall. This was all one big, planned and coordinated ambush; we didn’t stand a chance. The muggings and beatings continued as we silently prayed our way through. I did see a Liverpool fan react to someone attempting to jump him by delivering perhaps the best knockout punch I’ve ever seen, but I’m haunted by the memory of an elderly gentleman (in his seventies) trying to climb to his feet having been terribly beaten up.
By some miracle, we made it through the underpass unharmed and entered the metro station (Saint-Denis Porte de Paris). The situation on the platform seemed calmer, and I could see a lot of Liverpool fans. Stupidly, I thought we were safe, so I let my guard down and took my hands out of my pockets. Within two minutes, I felt someone behind me pull my phone from my pocket. I turned to see a gang who had made their way onto the platform. There were three of them directly in front of me, but I wasn’t certain which of them had taken the phone.
I shouted at the closest of the three who had been standing directly behind me, pointing at him and demanding my phone back, but they were professionals. By then, the phone had already been passed back from gang member to gang member and I was never going to recover it. The three in front of me were showing me their hands and the insides of their pockets as if to say “it wasn’t us, we don’t have your phone!”
I continued to shout and demand they return the stolen phone; that’s when the bigger of the three got in my face and pushed me, before a large Liverpool fan jumped into the fray and whacked the thief in the face. I panicked and thought they were going to pull a knife out, but the big guy stared them out and seemed to put the fear of God into them. They slowly backed off and left. He later told me that he knew I wasn’t getting the phone back, so he just “wanted to give them a receipt, lad!”
The day after, we spoke to some embarrassed and apologetic Parisians who told us about Saint-Denis, which is the northern suburb of Paris where the Stade de France is located. We were told that police do not set foot in Saint-Denis unless they’re in large numbers, given how unsafe it can be. We were also told by a member of airport staff on the way home that Saint-Denis is “overrun” with criminal gangs. It’s only since arriving home and reading about the place that I’ve discovered more equally concerning reports about the high crime rates in Saint-Denis.
Football legend Thierry Henry (Paris born and bred) actually alerted his audience about Saint-Denis while working as a pundit on the Champions League for CBS. “Be careful” he warned, “you don’t want to be in Saint-Denis.”
With this in mind, why did the police hang us out to dry? If they know that Saint-Denis is so dangerous, why didn’t they protect us? Instead of launching tear gas at innocent supporters, why couldn’t they have done their job and policed the streets leading to the metro stations?
A sweep of the area behind the stadium at the Real Madrid end just after the final whistle would surely have cleared the thugs and made it a lot safer for both sets of departing fans.
Now that I’m home, I’ve had a chance to catch up on the experiences of others on the streets of Saint-Denis. I’ve read about attacks on children, knife attacks and even attacks in full view of police who turned a blind eye. Real Madrid fans were similarly targeted.
I'm one of the lucky ones though. I wasn’t hurt and many were. A stolen phone is better than being slashed, stabbed or beaten up. My heart goes out to those who weren’t as fortunate as me. There are serious questions that need to be asked of the French authorities, and with French government ministers lying about what really happened on Saturday night, I intend to do what little I can."
A very similar account from UFC fighter Paddy Pimblett who says he had never been so scared in his entire life:
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Post by northstaffycher on Jun 5, 2022 20:42:12 GMT
Has anyone seen the interviews on La Parisian site where Scouse fans are saying that hundreds of local youths beat and robbed anyone in their path? One guy was being beaten while his wife was also getting attacked and he couldn’t help. Imagine that. Awful. Some saying they will never travel to watch Liverpool again and advising others not to go to Paris. I won’t mention the demographic of the local mobs as facts often offend these days.
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Post by Davef on Jun 5, 2022 21:13:48 GMT
Has anyone seen the interviews on La Parisian site where Scouse fans are saying that hundreds of local youths beat and robbed anyone in their path? One guy was being beaten while his wife was also getting attacked and he couldn’t help. Imagine that. Awful. Some saying they will never travel to watch Liverpool again and advising others not to go to Paris. I won’t mention the demographic of the local mobs as facts often offend these days. A rare article on that particular subject from a French journalist. In fact as far as I'm aware, the only other person to reference the problems in Saint Denis is Thierry Henry. unherd.com/thepost/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-frances-local-youths/
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 16, 2022 22:14:20 GMT
‘I really thought I was going to die’: The children tear-gassed and terrorised in Paris
Daniel Taylor
Jun 16, 2022
“I thought it was some kind of bomb. I was scared as I couldn’t breathe properly. I was scared because I had never seen any problems like this. I asked my dad, ‘Who was doing this?’ and he said it was the police. I was scared because I had always thought the police were good people to help us.”
Carlos Clemente is nine years old and a Liverpool fan.
A few weeks ago, his father, Carl, let him know the good news. They had tickets for the Champions League final in Paris. It was Liverpool versus Real Madrid in the biggest showpiece occasion in European club football. You can imagine his reaction: thrilled, excited, fully expecting it to be one of the best days of his life.
What happened outside the Stade de France instead turned it into an ordeal he will always remember for the wrong reasons. It was a scene of panic, brutality and sheer chaos. It has been exposed as a scandal that goes to the top of UEFA and the French police. And there are people who witnessed this mayhem, close up, and feel lucky it did not end in tragedy.
Carlos was one of the children who were tear-gassed, terrorised and traumatised and who have trusted The Athletic to tell their stories about the events that put thousands upon thousands of people in danger.
His first game at Anfield was as a six-year-old. His favourite player is Mohamed Salah. Carlos had told his friends at school he was going to the final. Everything was in place for a magical experience.
Yet there are photographs that show him after the match — and it is unmistakable terror on his face. His eyes are streaming. He is holding his dad close.
“I didn’t know what it (the tear gas) was until my dad told me a few days later,” he says. “I had to put my Liverpool scarf over my mouth. A Liverpool fan – a nice lady – gave me a face mask and some water. My eyes were stinging and I was crying a lot. It lasted for around a minute, but happened on two occasions.
“One time, the bomb landed in front of my dad and he fell over. I was scared. I just wanted to be with my mum. She phoned my dad and I was crying for her, telling her I was scared. I jumped into my dad’s arms. I wanted him to cuddle me.”
There are other children around the same age who went through the same ordeal. Some have told us they are wary, frightened even, about going back to football.
They talk about it being the scariest experience of their lives. Some are still suffering from the impact of the tear gas and, almost certainly, the psychological effects, too.
“Watching those harrowing and distressing scenes of young children being pepper-sprayed or feeling the effects of tear gas is truly heartbreaking,” says Joe Blott, chairman of the Spirit of Shankly supporters’ group. “Young kids on their parents’ shoulders, singing songs about their idols, pinching themselves that their parents had got them a ticket. A dream come true. A dream that turned into a nightmare.”
Maxwell Pearce is 11 years old and a Liverpool fan.
“I was really, really excited because it was the biggest game of the year,” he says. “I’ve always supported Liverpool. And, wow, we had tickets for the final.”
He was with his father, Jade, in Paris and perhaps you have seen the photograph that went viral of them outside the stadium. Again, it is difficult to see so much trauma in a young boy’s eyes. Maxwell is wearing a Liverpool top, holding his scarf over his mouth. He is, in his father’s words “petrified… in bits, he thought he was being poisoned, he thought he was going to die”.
It was not long after that picture was taken that they decided it was too risky, too dangerous, and gave up trying to get into the stadium. It didn’t matter that they had tickets. “I just want to go,” a sobbing Maxwell told his father. “I want to get out of here. Let’s go. Please, let’s go.”
It is a relief, therefore, to find Maxwell smiling again when he arrives home from school in Leigh-on-Sea, Essex, and changes into the new Liverpool kit that Jason McAteer has sent him as a gift.
McAteer, a former Liverpool player, was also caught up in the trouble that involved gangs from Saint-Denis, one of the more notorious parts of Paris, picking off innocent fans outside the stadium. His wife, Lucy, was mugged for her watch and their son, Harry, was also attacked. McAteer saw the pictures of Maxwell and wanted to do something for him.
But it is always going to be hard for a boy of his age to understand the sequence of events that has led to the French authorities admitting there were “multiple failures” in the management of the crowd.
“We were sprayed with tear gas, and I still don’t understand why,” says Maxwell. “Everyone was shouting at me to get on the ground and cover my face with my scarf. I had no idea what was happening. Everyone’s eyes were really stinging. Everyone was coughing.
“You struggle to breathe. You can taste it on your lips. I tried to wash my eyes from my bottle of water, but I didn’t have enough water. I was panicking because I didn’t know what was going on. I thought I was being poisoned. I really thought I was going to die.”
Almost three weeks on, he is still suffering nasal problems. He has been to a doctor and the diagnosis was that the tear gas had left his nostrils red and inflamed. But Maxwell and his father know it could have been worse.
They saw the gangs who were ambushing fans and stealing their valuables. The gangs were feral and indiscriminate and described as “malevolent individuals” in the initial 30-page report by the French government. Nobody was safe.
“The Liverpool fans were really kind,” says Maxwell. “They formed a circle around me, making sure I wasn’t getting hurt. All the fans were helping, being really nice to me. That’s why I love going to Liverpool, because everyone is so nice. I don’t know if I’d go to France again, but I will definitely go back to Liverpool.”
Everything, though, is still very confusing. Maxwell has been brought up to believe the police are there to protect him. So why, he wants to know, did they want to hurt innocent people? “I’d been so excited to see the game. I was looking forward to it for ages but everything was so scary I just wanted to go back to the hotel. I said to my dad, ‘I’m really scared, I want to go’. Then the police came up to the gate again, with their canisters, and that’s when we ran.”
“It is healing quite quickly,” says Noel Welsh, removing his glasses to show the damage to his right eye. “It was more the shock, to be honest, because it was the last thing I expected. Physically, I’m all right. But I think it will always be with me. Every game I go to, it will always be playing on my mind.”
Noel is 14.
He was in Paris with his brother, James, and their father, Tony, as part of a group of eight. Noel was the youngest member of their travelling party and he is still coming to terms with being attacked outside the stadium by someone trying to steal his ticket.
That, however, tells only part of the story bearing in mind he and his family were also caught up in the crush, on the approach to the stadium, when thousands of fans were funnelled into an underpass where there was not enough space for the number of people.
“People were getting squashed,” says Noel. “I’ve seen pictures of what it was like at Hillsborough and it made me feel like that, and how they would have felt. There was one point when we were heading towards a concrete pillar and I thought we were going to go straight into it. I was scared. People were shouting, ‘This is like Hillsborough’.”
“My dad has a bad back and I put my arm around him. My arm was getting squashed. I was in agony but I had to do it. The next day, we were in the airport and my ribs … I’ve never felt pain like it. I could hardly breathe. I think I must have done something to my ribs because of the pressure from so many people. I’m shocked no one got seriously hurt or, even worse, killed.”
It is going to take time to get over what happened. Noel and his family got into the stadium just before half-time. But how could he enjoy what was left of the match after going through that kind of ordeal?
His cousin, Ava, was also in Paris and took the photographs of Noel, battered and bloodied, after he and his brother were attacked.
“This guy had jumped the queue,” says Noel. “People were telling him, ‘We’ve been queuing for two and a half hours’. But he wouldn’t move. He started telling me he wanted my ticket. We made it clear to him that I was 14 and ‘Why are you going to try to take my ticket off me?’. Then he whispered in my brother’s ear that he was going to slash my dad, stab him. And then he just started lashing out. He hit my brother first, then me. It all happened so quickly.”
Their attacker — in his late twenties or thirties and well over six feet tall — was English, speaking with a southern accent. The Athletic has heard many stories about Liverpool’s fans looking after their own. It hurts that the person responsible might have been another supporter of Klopp’s team.
James, who is 17, was knocked to the floor and has needed emergency dental work because six of his teeth are damaged. The UK police are involved.
“My dad tried to report it to the French police (on the night) and they just pushed him away,” says Noel. “There was no one to help. They were just spraying everyone with tear gas. Four or five times, we got sprayed.
“I couldn’t breathe. It felt like it (the tear gas) was going in everywhere it could: my ears, my nose, my mouth, my eyes, the back of my throat.
“I just kept thinking, ‘Why are they doing this? And why are they doing it so often?’. I had to tell myself, ‘They’re not going to stop, you just have to get through this’.
“It felt like I was suffocating. My eyes were stinging. I’ve never felt anything like it before. But that wasn’t the end, because they were still spraying us when we came out of the ground. It was like they had a new toy and they were using us for their bit of fun.”
Elliott Anderson’s bedroom is a shrine to his favourite football team. The sign on his door reads, “Anfield Road”. A picture of his favourite player, Salah, is emblazoned on the red and white walls. Elliott sleeps beneath a Liverpool duvet. His head rests on a Liverpool pillow. His rug shows that famous liver bird. There is a Liverpool scarf hanging from the windowsill, a Liverpool drinks coaster, a Liverpool clock and on and on.
Elliott is nine.
He has just got back from primary school, munching a packet of crisps on the sofa, dressed in his Liverpool kit. And he is about to say something that even his father, Dean, has not heard him say before.
“When it (the tear gas) started, I thought it was being dropped down from a helicopter. I could hear a helicopter above us. I started coughing. I didn’t know what it was. It just hit us. My nose was hurting, my throat too. It made me cry. People were shouting at the police, ‘There are kids here, this lad’s not even 10 years old’. But the police did nothing. They didn’t care.”
He and his father had flown into Paris on the day before the match and, before everything turned sinister, there was plenty of time for sightseeing. One photo shows Elliott by the Eiffel Tower. Another shows him at Notre Dame. Others are taken at the fan park on Cours de Vincennes.
After that, it is a frightening story. They arrived at the stadium in plenty of time but the gates were locked and thousands of people were outside. They waited, and waited, and slowly it became clear they might not get in. Then came the tear gas and the panic. Other match-goers gave Elliott water to soothe his eyes while he covered his face in his scarf.
They were locked out and, just before half-time, Dean broke the news that it was hopeless. Darkness was falling. It was one of the hardest conversations he has ever had with his son. “I was really disappointed,” says Elliott. “There was nothing that could be done, and I just started crying even more.”
The following day, Elliott was so exhausted and traumatised he did not have the energy to go to the open-top bus parade in Liverpool. Dean had booked flights so they could watch the homecoming for Klopp’s team. Instead, dad and son set off on the journey home to Retford, Nottinghamshire. They have subsequently discovered they were among 2,700 Liverpool fans with valid tickets who did not get into the stadium.
Elliott, though, says it will not put him off going to matches in the future. He has already looked up the date of next season’s Champions League final in Turkey and, if nothing else, he has happy memories from the airport.
“The Liverpool players were flying out to Paris at the same time as us,” he says, now smiling. “They were on the next plane to us. Virgil van Dijk looked across and waved. I waved back. At least we saw the players then.”
The text is still on her phone. At 7.20pm UK time, shortly before the twice-delayed final was originally meant to kick off, Claire Whitehurst picked up her phone to send a message to her husband, Tom, asking for an update. Social media was buzzing with stories about Liverpool fans struggling to get into the Stade de France. She was starting to feel anxious. “Just seen the pictures,” she wrote. “Looks like my idea of hell.”
What she did not know at the time was that her husband was still outside the stadium with their son, Harry, and their big adventure was turning into a nightmare.
Harry is 14. He has Williams Syndrome, a rare congenital disorder, and it is chilling to hear what flashed through his mind in some of the more harrowing moments.
“A bunch of people got tear-gassed right in front of us,” he says. “I remember seeing one lad and he was just ‘out’ in seconds. I was scared. I had a burning sensation in my throat. I thought I was going to be sick. There were a lot of people shouting and panicking and I was thinking, ‘What is this?’. For a second, I actually thought it was Putin starting the gas.”
Harry is part of the Liverpool Disabled Supporters’ Association. He sits at the front of the Kop for home games and helps to put out the banners and wave the flags. Anfield is where he is his happiest. “It’s a big part of my life,” he says. “It feels like home to me. I know loads of people there. It’s just really nice, like a big family.”
He has been going to games since the age of five and, three years ago, he was in Madrid to see Liverpool win the final against Tottenham Hotspur. It was, he says, the happiest day of his life. He and his dad hoped to return from Paris with similar memories.
Instead, they encountered all the pandemonium, the dangerous crushes, the confusion, the hostility of the police, the aggro from Parisian gangs, and the awful feeling that they were in danger. They did not get into the stadium until just before half-time and, by that stage, the football felt almost immaterial.
“It was really hard to enjoy it,” says Harry. “I just felt down. I was upset and angry. I’d been so excited about going. You get so hyped about the good days in your life. You go to the airport, you fly over, you sing, you party. We were having such a great time and then, as soon as we got to the stadium, it just went downhill.”
It is a Liverpool-supporting family. Tom says he is relieved they did not have a third ticket because that would have meant Scarlett, Harry’s 12-year-old sister, being there. At home, Claire was trying not to panic, waiting for updates.
Harry will be back at Anfield next season. But it hasn’t escaped his attention that a number of people in prominent positions, including the Paris police chief, Didier Lallement, and the country’s interior minister, Gerald Darmanin, tried at first to blame Liverpool fans for turning up late and accused them of having forged tickets on an industrial scale.
“We all knew they were lying,” says Harry. “When they said there were 40,000 fake tickets, we knew it was a lie. Now the police have admitted the truth and apologised to our fans, but I’m not accepting it. If they’re saying, ‘We’re sorry, but we still think tear gas was the right thing to do’, why are they apologising in the first place?”
The irony here is that when UEFA switched the Champions League final from Wednesdays to Saturdays it was to make it easier for children to attend. UEFA wanted to create more of a family atmosphere. Then the children arrived in Paris and look what happened to them.
“I’ve been going since I was six and that was definitely the most frightening experience,” says Roman Renoldi. “Everything was scary. I felt trapped. My dad had to shield me, it was just horrible.”
Roman is 11. He, too, was left in tears because of what he saw. He, too, felt endangered, vulnerable, small. And, like all the young fans who are telling their stories here, he understands it is important to get the truth out if the people who are really to blame are trying to pin it on Liverpool’s supporters.
He talks about Hillsborough, too. Even at his young age, he knows what happened on that April’s day in Sheffield in 1989. He knows, mostly, because his father, Simon, was among the Liverpool fans when the crush occurred that killed 97 people. Simon went on the pitch and helped to carry the stricken on emergency stretchers made from advertising boards. What happened in Paris has brought back a lot of difficult memories.
In the crush outside the Stade de France, there was the unmistakable sense that something could go terribly wrong again. “That’s when I started to panic,” says Roman. “My dad has told me about Hillsborough. At one point, when we got to our gate and couldn’t get in, I was asking my dad if we could go home or go somewhere else to watch it in a pub. I didn’t want to be there any longer.”
The saddest thing, perhaps, is that every one of these children will always be distrusting of one of Europe’s great cities. All say variations of the same thing: it has put them off Paris forever. And who can be surprised when their visit to the French capital contained so many dangers?
The story, for example, of one father, Danny Smith, who was set upon by a mob of locals carrying hammers and other weapons. They pinned him to the ground and stole almost everything he had. Danny’s leg was broken in three places. He has had surgery and it will be a long, difficult recovery requiring nine months off work.
His 13-year-old son, Dan, was in Paris with him and witnessed everything.
Kade Corfield was leaving the stadium with his father, John, around the same time. “My dad had tight hold of me and said, ‘No matter what, do not let go of my hand.’ I thought that was quite odd because usually we just walk out the ground together, laughing and singing, but this was different.” As they tried to find a safe route back to their car, the tear gas started. Kade is 12 years old and asthmatic.
“I started coughing but my dad kept telling me, ‘Please, Kade, keep walking.’ He pushed my head into him to stop me from breathing any more in. I looked up at him and his eyes were streaming. He was coughing. I began to panic because I thought, ‘If I get separated from my dad, what do I do? I’m in the middle of Paris, it’s dark and late and I don’t know anyone.’ I squeezed my dad’s hand even tighter. More and more tear gas was coming. “When we got back to our car, I took my jacket off and my arms were red. My dad said it was his fault for squeezing me so tight to keep me close and not get separated. I didn’t even feel it, to be honest. I was so desperate to get back to the car. We didn’t do anything wrong, we just went to a football match, to watch the team we love.”
Some of the other families who have spoken to The Athletic have talked about the possibility of their children needing counselling. Their parents are suspicious, to say the least, about the motives for the French authorities deleting CCTV footage when UEFA and the French government are holding separate inquiries. In some cases, the kids have found their experiences too upsetting to talk about.
Nobody really mentions the game, or the result, because it felt secondary to everything else. Liverpool lost 1-0 but that is not the reason why they will remember May 28, 2022, as a harrowing, disturbing experience.
It wasn’t a bomb. It wasn’t Putin starting a nuclear war. They weren’t being poisoned and the tear gas wasn’t being dropped from a helicopter. But who can blame these children, many of primary-school age, for thinking the worst?
“Heartbreaking,” is the word that Blott uses, as the chairman of Spirit of Shankly, which will continue to lobby the French authorities. “I can only hope the effects on those young people are short term and that help and support is available to them.”
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Francois-Noel Buffet is absolutely furious that the images from around the Stade de France were allowed to be deleted.
The inquiry specifically asked for the footage and was told by Gérald Darmanin's staff that they would provide them. They didn't.
Francois-Noel Buffet (Senator in charge of the hearings) :
"We made contact with Darmanin's staff. They said they would show us the images. Then, when the French Football Federation came to the senate, they told us the CCTV had been deleted. That poses us a major difficulty because these images are very important."
"The ministers and chief of police told us 30-40k Liverpool fans tried to enter the stadium. The minister told us he had images at his disposition to show it."
"It would have been very useful to keep all the images. But nothing was done. It seems nobody had the idea, or the intention at least, to keep the CCTV. Undoubtedly, this is a major issue for us."
"Deleting the footage is a massive error."
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Post by withnall on Jun 16, 2022 23:42:16 GMT
Harrowing reading that is.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 17, 2022 5:40:03 GMT
Deleted CCTV? That’s the stuff that used to happen years ago. In this day and age try and convince anyone that CCTV has been deleted accidentally and they will assume a conspiracy and cover up.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 20, 2022 19:00:31 GMT
'Trauma' of disabled Liverpool fans fuels calls to strip Stade de France of RWC 2023 and Olympics World Rugby and IOC urged to take action after children teargassed, a woman suffered a ‘grotesque attack’ and another a dislocated shoulder.
World Rugby and the International Olympic Committee are facing calls to strip the Stade de France from hosting their showpiece events ahead of an appearance of Liverpool fans at the French Senate on Tuesday.
The “horrendous” scale of the treatment of Liverpool fans at the Champions League final against Real Madrid will be laid bare in front of parliamentarians by Ted Morris and Joe Blott, the respective chairs of the Liverpool Disabled Supporters Association and the Spirit of Shankly fan group.
Morris has been compiling a record of the “traumatic” experiences endured by disabled fans, which include: disabled children being teargassed; a wheelchair user being crowd-surfed to safety over a fence; a blind fan being separated from their carer; a disabled woman suffering a dislocated shoulder; and a “grotesque” attack on a disabled woman as she left the stadium.
“The authorities failed massively,” Morris said. “I’ve emailed Lord Coe and Sir Bill Beaumont as well because I am of the opinion the stadium is not suitable to hold those two massive events after what happened to us. It was just horrendous.”
The Stade de France is due to hold the Rugby World Cup semi-finals and final in 2023 and then the Olympic athletics events in 2024. Morris and Blott are due to appear at 4.30pm on Tuesday as part of an inquiry by France’s Law Commission and will be sure to refute various post-match claims by the French authorities. Interior minister Gerald Darmanin has claimed that sections of the Liverpool fans posed “public order problems” and that 30,000-40,000 extra Liverpool fans had turned up to the match without proper tickets.
“We will bring the issue of disability to the French Senate and call out the untruths,” Morris said. “Our disabled supporters suffered greatly in Paris. The French have tried to use a narrative and playbook that has haunted this football club. And they have done it without basis or substance.
“We had nine games in Europe last season – there was not one single arrest. We went there for a festival of sport. There are a lot of people affected by this and we can’t allow this narrative to gain any more traction. We will provide testimonies of some of the horrendous experiences of our disabled supporters – families and children as young as eight. We hope to get some answers. We need to go there and tell the truth about what happened.”
Morris said that it was “quite unheard of” for fan representatives to be invited to the French Senate and that they were “grateful” for the opportunity.
Darmanin did subsequently appear to recognise some errors were made by authorities but Liverpool fans would like him to retract his earlier statements fully. “I would like to express our regret with regard to the organisation of the final because some people were not able to see the whole of the match,” Darmanin said. “I deplore the errors which took place before.”
'The authorities failed massively. It was just horrendous' There were numerous eyewitness accounts of major congestion problems on the approach to the stadium and patient fans being locked out for almost an hour. There were also multiple reports of how local gangs assaulted and robbed supporters making their way back to coaches and trains after the match.
Didier Lallement, the head of Paris police, has since admitted he may have falsely stated up to 40,000 Liverpool supporters tried to get into the stadium with fake tickets. “Perhaps I made a mistake with the figure I gave to the minister,” Lallement said.
The police chief also acknowledged that there were not 30,000-40,000 “at the gates of the stadium” but maintained that many thousands were in the vicinity.
“It is obviously a failure because people were pushed and attacked,” Lallement said. “It’s a failure because the image of the country was undermined.”
The Telegraph has contacted the operators of the Stade de France for comment. The stadium is owned by the French government and France’s sports minister, Amélie Oudéa-Castéra, has said that “the priority now is to identify very precisely what went wrong … in order to learn all the lessons so that such incidents do not happen again at our future major international sporting events”.
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