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Post by ceejays on Jun 3, 2022 13:56:16 GMT
Well what was the capacity of the lapping lane end at Sheffield and they all had tickets . You only have to see the videos of the gates opening to see the number who poured through so I think this falls quite clearly into the victim area . And I guess mr lordb you were not at the Port Vale v Liverpool match 1964 ? Well I was . I was 14 and went with my dad . We sat in the stands and were 10 yards away from the guy who fell through the roof . I saw with my own eyes Liverpool fans break down the gate to the paddock and pour in. Read Wikipedia. Fortunately the vale ground had a running track so this released the crush . They sat/kneeled down on the running track the whole match . I also saw a Liverpool guy with a suitcase. Opened it up to reveal a rope ladder. About 10 to 15 climbed over the wall before police intervened. So u c in a way Hillsboro happened in 1964. At this point Liverpool FC should have learned their lesson and told fans to STAY AT HOME but they didn’t. So for tears after the same behaviour occurred. Of course most teams will have similar fans going hoping to buy a ticket from ticket touts. The point is Liverpool fans go to extremes. I worked in Liverpool for 30 years so please don’t tell me about their culture. Examine the cause don’t bleat about the consequences. And we haven’t even mentioned Heysel. So the history is there and unless the club addresses this blind spot it will happen again for sure. Yes the Paris police and organisation was diabolical. The actions taken outrageous. That’s not the point I am making . Address the cause not the effect .
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Post by werrington on Jun 3, 2022 14:11:40 GMT
I’ve not read the previous 24 pages of this thread so my opinion isn’t tarnished by anyone. It does seem to me that the issue with Liverpool is one of cause and effect. Scousers will cry foul at the effects or consequences of events . That of course is undeniable. However what is the cause ? Is it not that unlike any other club the fans turn up for ticketed matches in their thousands without tickets ? In this instance Klopp himself encouraged fans to go to Paris without tickets and enjoy themselves. He quoted Borussia Dortmund where having advised similar trouble ensued . On this occasion he said Paris is big enough to cater for thousands without tickets. I turned to the wife and said trouble ahead . Does he not understand history ? Liverpool FC should tell the fans to STAY AT HOME and enjoy the match at home . We now have Port Vale v Liverpool 1964 ( forgotten) Hillsboro and Paris where fans turned up in their thousands without tickets. In a way scousers are their own worst enemy. Moreover the distraction that this caused in Paris cannot possibly have helped the team on the night. Overall this gives rise to the victim debate. Always the victim never to blame . They are to blame because they turn up in their thousands without tickets. The consequences are self inflicted. The club needs to send a different message. STAY AT HOME So you’ve not read this thread so as not to tarnish your opinion then you come out with this pile of horseshite and your post above Pulis urged Stoke fans to attend Valencia in our thousands ….it’s what fans do Fucking shameful
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 3, 2022 14:11:57 GMT
Well what was the capacity of the lapping lane end at Sheffield and they all had tickets . You only have to see the videos of the gates opening to see the number who poured through so I think this falls quite clearly into the victim area . And I guess mr lordb you were not at the Port Vale v Liverpool match 1964 ? Well I was . I was 14 and went with my dad . We sat in the stands and were 10 yards away from the guy who fell through the roof . I saw with my own eyes Liverpool fans break down the gate to the paddock and pour in. Read Wikipedia. Fortunately the vale ground had a running track so this released the crush . They sat/kneeled down on the running track the whole match . I also saw a Liverpool guy with a suitcase. Opened it up to reveal a rope ladder. About 10 to 15 climbed over the wall before police intervened. So u c in a way Hillsboro happened in 1964. At this point Liverpool FC should have learned their lesson and told fans to STAY AT HOME but they didn’t. So for tears after the same behaviour occurred. Of course most teams will have similar fans going hoping to buy a ticket from ticket touts. The point is Liverpool fans go to extremes. I worked in Liverpool for 30 years so please don’t tell me about their culture. Examine the cause don’t bleat about the consequences. And we haven’t even mentioned Heysel. So the history is there and unless the club addresses this blind spot it will happen again for sure. Yes the Paris police and organisation was diabolical. The actions taken outrageous. That’s not the point I am making . Address the cause not the effect . and the cause for Real Madrid fans, what is their blind spot? They had fans hospitalised as a result of French police actions as confirmed by the Real Madrid statement and they have demanded an enquiry, so it becoming clear what the common denominator is here.
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Post by scfc75 on Jun 3, 2022 14:18:47 GMT
Well what was the capacity of the lapping lane end at Sheffield and they all had tickets . You only have to see the videos of the gates opening to see the number who poured through so I think this falls quite clearly into the victim area . And I guess mr lordb you were not at the Port Vale v Liverpool match 1964 ? Well I was . I was 14 and went with my dad . We sat in the stands and were 10 yards away from the guy who fell through the roof . I saw with my own eyes Liverpool fans break down the gate to the paddock and pour in. Read Wikipedia. Fortunately the vale ground had a running track so this released the crush . They sat/kneeled down on the running track the whole match . I also saw a Liverpool guy with a suitcase. Opened it up to reveal a rope ladder. About 10 to 15 climbed over the wall before police intervened. So u c in a way Hillsboro happened in 1964. At this point Liverpool FC should have learned their lesson and told fans to STAY AT HOME but they didn’t. So for tears after the same behaviour occurred. Of course most teams will have similar fans going hoping to buy a ticket from ticket touts. The point is Liverpool fans go to extremes. I worked in Liverpool for 30 years so please don’t tell me about their culture. Examine the cause don’t bleat about the consequences. And we haven’t even mentioned Heysel. So the history is there and unless the club addresses this blind spot it will happen again for sure. Yes the Paris police and organisation was diabolical. The actions taken outrageous. That’s not the point I am making . Address the cause not the effect . and the cause for Real Madrid fans, what is their blind spot? They had fans hospitalised as a result of French police actions as confirmed by the Real Madrid statement and they have demanded an enquiry, so it becoming clear what the common denominator is here. I bet they were scousers in Madrid tops. Stolen, obviously.
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Post by lordb on Jun 3, 2022 14:21:01 GMT
Well what was the capacity of the lapping lane end at Sheffield and they all had tickets . You only have to see the videos of the gates opening to see the number who poured through so I think this falls quite clearly into the victim area . And I guess mr lordb you were not at the Port Vale v Liverpool match 1964 ? Well I was . I was 14 and went with my dad . We sat in the stands and were 10 yards away from the guy who fell through the roof . I saw with my own eyes Liverpool fans break down the gate to the paddock and pour in. Read Wikipedia. Fortunately the vale ground had a running track so this released the crush . They sat/kneeled down on the running track the whole match . I also saw a Liverpool guy with a suitcase. Opened it up to reveal a rope ladder. About 10 to 15 climbed over the wall before police intervened. So u c in a way Hillsboro happened in 1964. At this point Liverpool FC should have learned their lesson and told fans to STAY AT HOME but they didn’t. So for tears after the same behaviour occurred. Of course most teams will have similar fans going hoping to buy a ticket from ticket touts. The point is Liverpool fans go to extremes. I worked in Liverpool for 30 years so please don’t tell me about their culture. Examine the cause don’t bleat about the consequences. And we haven’t even mentioned Heysel. So the history is there and unless the club addresses this blind spot it will happen again for sure. Yes the Paris police and organisation was diabolical. The actions taken outrageous. That’s not the point I am making . Address the cause not the effect . Watch the video yourself The caged sectioning of the terraces meant that whist some sections of the terrace were nowhere near full two sections were overcrowded Why was this ? 1: the utterly pointless cages 2: the one entrance 3: SYorkshires finest ineptitude, not least not putting KO back when thousands of fans were late dur to problems on the motorways All of this is in The Taylor report, and more, no mention of 'thousands of ticketless fans', again that's an established lie, stop repeating it I wasn't at Vale v Liverpool so will happily accept every word you say re that however the events that night do not mean that's what happened at Hillsborough or indeed Paris where multiple neutral reliable sources again demonstrate that the 'thousands of fans without tickets' lie is being trotted out again to cover arses of those who fucked up. I was at Barnsley v Stoke FA Cup replay 1989 where S Yorkshire police fucked up by a: massively underestimating how many Stoke fans would go, they anticipated for about 1500,we actually took thousands and thousands more, they exacerbated that fuck up by b: not delaying KO as thousands of fans turned up late due to problems on the motorway There was one entrance and the police had got their batons out (& using them on anyone) , the crucial difference with Hillsborough was the terrace wasn't caged it just had a fence at the front. As such those already on the terrace could simply move sidewards, at Hillsborough they couldn't and died as a result But hey if its easier to deem scousers as somehow less human, more criminal, more likely to turn up without tickets 'in their thousands' than any other set of football fans do that Just hope to god it never happens to us because letting the lie obscure negligence to obscure ineptitude to obscure the disgusting attitude to working class people that continues to prevail is only going to end up one way
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Post by ceejays on Jun 3, 2022 14:37:35 GMT
Whether 000s turned up or hundreds Port Vale v Liverpool 1964 I saw with my own eyes. Just read Wikipedia. Paris ? Thousands turned up . This is indisputable. Please don’t lecture me on the culture I lived and worked with it for 30 years . They blame the government for neglecting the area when Derek Hatton and his crew raped council funds and now the corruption continues with investigations ongoing. Don’t get me wrong scousers have a community spirit. If you took a collection round the factory for someone in need they were very generous. Try that in Yorkshire (where I also worked) and you would be lucky to get a fiver . So I’m not biased and look at things dispassionately. Trouble is scousers do have a chip on their shoulders. Most is self inflicted. I will leave it there . Up the potters
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Post by JoeinOz on Jun 3, 2022 14:38:47 GMT
Astonishing and distressing that some, despite so much evidence to the contrary, choose to blame Liverpool fans for Hillsborough
Sheer bloody minded prejudice
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 3, 2022 14:54:35 GMT
Football fans in disgraceful "turning up" scandal
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 15:24:08 GMT
Astonishing and distressing that some, despite so much evidence to the contrary, choose to blame Liverpool fans for Hillsborough Sheer bloody minded prejudice Astonishing that some people can’t accept that prejudice is part of human nature and repeatedly keep bleating about it. Anybody would think they were Scousers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 15:42:26 GMT
Astonishing and distressing that some, despite so much evidence to the contrary, choose to blame Liverpool fans for Hillsborough Sheer bloody minded prejudice Astonishing that some people can’t accept that prejudice is part of human nature and repeatedly keep bleating about it. Anybody would think they were Scousers. Everybody can accept that it is part of human society. It doesn't mean that it can't be called out as bullshit by those that try not to let it obscure their views.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 15:51:57 GMT
Astonishing that some people can’t accept that prejudice is part of human nature and repeatedly keep bleating about it. Anybody would think they were Scousers. Everybody can accept that it is part of human society. It doesn't mean that it can't be called out as bullshit by those that try not to let it obscure their views. But most of them are complete hypocrites and post prejudice about other things yet can’t accept someone holding a generalised negative perception of something they choose to relate to. Prejudices I’m full of them I have a negative perception of far more things than those which I have a positive perception of, many of them highly irrational. I don’t however discriminate or spread hate so it’s ok, yes?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 16:00:25 GMT
I’ve not read the previous 24 pages of this thread so my opinion isn’t tarnished by anyone. It does seem to me that the issue with Liverpool is one of cause and effect. Scousers will cry foul at the effects or consequences of events . That of course is undeniable. However what is the cause ? Is it not that unlike any other club the fans turn up for ticketed matches in their thousands without tickets ? In this instance Klopp himself encouraged fans to go to Paris without tickets and enjoy themselves. He quoted Borussia Dortmund where having advised similar trouble ensued . On this occasion he said Paris is big enough to cater for thousands without tickets. I turned to the wife and said trouble ahead . Does he not understand history ? Liverpool FC should tell the fans to STAY AT HOME and enjoy the match at home . We now have Port Vale v Liverpool 1964 ( forgotten) Hillsboro and Paris where fans turned up in their thousands without tickets. In a way scousers are their own worst enemy. Moreover the distraction that this caused in Paris cannot possibly have helped the team on the night. Overall this gives rise to the victim debate. Always the victim never to blame . They are to blame because they turn up in their thousands without tickets. The consequences are self inflicted. The club needs to send a different message. STAY AT HOME So you’ve not read this thread so as not to tarnish your opinion then you come out with this pile of horseshite and your post above Pulis urged Stoke fans to attend Valencia in our thousands ….it’s what fans do Fucking shameful You really don’t like anyone expressing views opposite to your own do you. I think you might have issues.
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 3, 2022 16:00:56 GMT
Fair enough. I get what you’re saying and you’re quite right people should be judged as individuals but Liverpudlians aren’t alone as being put under a banner and everyone’s guilty of it me included. That same sort of prejudice could be bought into most communities, cultures or organisations. The Royal family being a classic case with people using the Prince Andrew stick to beat the Queen with. I’m sure that there’s plenty using him that would be defending others for similar prejudice on other issues. The Port Vale thread was another classic example (I kept well away from that one). No one’s perfect and we’re all going to develop opinions based on experience which of course is wrong as you should judge individuals on merit rather than prejudging them. No one’s perfect but let’s not forget it’s only a message board and not real life. Don't think you should be bringing the Queen/Prince Andrew into this discussion! The Royal family have bailed out Prince Andrew to the tune of £12m (of tax payers' money) to keep him out of jail and preserve their dubious institution from further scandal. The Queen gets it, as she put personal interests before justice! Load of bollocks mate,She accepted the out of court settlement for what ever reasons and the Queen stumped up the cash from her own personal purse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 16:01:05 GMT
Everybody can accept that it is part of human society. It doesn't mean that it can't be called out as bullshit by those that try not to let it obscure their views. But most of them are complete hypocrites and post prejudice about other things yet can’t accept someone holding a generalised negative perception of something they choose to relate to. Prejudices I’m full of them I have a negative perception of far more things than those which I have a positive perception of, many of them highly irrational. I don’t however discriminate or spread hate so it’s ok, yes? Just isolating your particular prejudice against the people of Liverpool, of which there are around 1 million currently residing in that city. You have openly admitted that your views on those people have been formed after bumping into a few wrong uns in prison. Is it OK for you to have those views, yes of course it is, you can think whatever you like, it has no bearing on my life. If you're putting this view across on a public message board then you cannot be surprised when people comment on how ridiculous that viewpoint is.
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 3, 2022 16:03:40 GMT
Whether 000s turned up or hundreds Port Vale v Liverpool 1964 I saw with my own eyes. Just read Wikipedia. Paris ? Thousands turned up . This is indisputable. Please don’t lecture me on the culture I lived and worked with it for 30 years . They blame the government for neglecting the area when Derek Hatton and his crew raped council funds and now the corruption continues with investigations ongoing. Don’t get me wrong scousers have a community spirit. If you took a collection round the factory for someone in need they were very generous. Try that in Yorkshire (where I also worked) and you would be lucky to get a fiver . So I’m not biased and look at things dispassionately. Trouble is scousers do have a chip on their shoulders. Most is self inflicted. I will leave it there . Up the potters Yes but you are assuming all those fans who turned up without tickets and were just enjoying the occasion then all decided to rock up tom the stadium and try to get in which simply isn't true!
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Post by lordb on Jun 3, 2022 16:08:53 GMT
Everybody can accept that it is part of human society. It doesn't mean that it can't be called out as bullshit by those that try not to let it obscure their views. But most of them are complete hypocrites and post prejudice about other things yet can’t accept someone holding a generalised negative perception of something they choose to relate to. Prejudices I’m full of them I have a negative perception of far more things than those which I have a positive perception of, many of them highly irrational. I don’t however discriminate or spread hate so it’s ok, yes? If you allow your prejudice to dictate then yes that's what you end up doing
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 16:19:30 GMT
But most of them are complete hypocrites and post prejudice about other things yet can’t accept someone holding a generalised negative perception of something they choose to relate to. Prejudices I’m full of them I have a negative perception of far more things than those which I have a positive perception of, many of them highly irrational. I don’t however discriminate or spread hate so it’s ok, yes? Just isolating your particular prejudice against the people of Liverpool, of which there are around 1 million currently residing in that city. You have openly admitted that your views on those people have been formed after bumping into a few wrong uns in prison. Is it OK for you to have those views, yes of course it is, you can think whatever you like, it has no bearing on my life. If you're putting this view across on a public message board then you cannot be surprised when people comment on how ridiculous that viewpoint is. As ridiculous as those who are so affronted by it yet post their own prejudices on other matters and abuse those who don’t agree with them. They think they can shout people down with their faux outrage but I’m happy to debate them all day hypocrisy is an easy victim.
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Post by werrington on Jun 3, 2022 16:27:08 GMT
So you’ve not read this thread so as not to tarnish your opinion then you come out with this pile of horseshite and your post above Pulis urged Stoke fans to attend Valencia in our thousands ….it’s what fans do Fucking shameful You really don’t like anyone expressing views opposite to your own do you. I think you might have issues. I don’t mind people having different opinions I have issues with people spewing hate filled bile and talking like school children on the yard Now jog along the bell will be going in a minute
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 16:30:14 GMT
But most of them are complete hypocrites and post prejudice about other things yet can’t accept someone holding a generalised negative perception of something they choose to relate to. Prejudices I’m full of them I have a negative perception of far more things than those which I have a positive perception of, many of them highly irrational. I don’t however discriminate or spread hate so it’s ok, yes? If you allow your prejudice to dictate then yes that's what you end up doing If you’re in a position to discriminate you’re far better off understanding you’re prejudices, not doing so leads to trouble.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 16:32:42 GMT
You really don’t like anyone expressing views opposite to your own do you. I think you might have issues. I don’t mind people having different opinions I have issues with people spewing hate filled bile and talking like school children on the yard Now jog along the bell will be going in a minute You’ve read no hatred from me. You’ve read no posts abusing people with opposite opinions. Could we say the same about you?
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 3, 2022 17:22:11 GMT
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Post by Scouse on Jun 3, 2022 17:40:19 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed ..
What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England.
Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals
Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking
Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not
There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found
Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos
As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 3, 2022 17:46:41 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed .. What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England. Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future. Excellent post and very articulately put.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 18:19:46 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed .. What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England. Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future. I'd love it, if we as football fans could go anywhere in the country, in the world even and be treated as just another person. Sadly we aren't and I can understand why. I don't understand why football is the only major sport where fans have to be segregated but some who've posted on here in faux outrage about prejudicial views wouldn't have it any other way. I don't understand why the tribal, goading, hate filled nature of many football supporters is not challenged and I don't understand why people who partake in it and perpetuate it squeal so loudly about a mild case of stereotyping and prejudice. You're missing the point they say because somehow they think they get to dictate what the point is.
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 3, 2022 18:38:18 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed .. What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England. Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future. I'd love it, if we as football fans could go anywhere in the country, in the world even and be treated as just another person. Sadly we aren't and I can understand why. I don't understand why football is the only major sport where fans have to be segregated but some who've posted on here in faux outrage about prejudicial views wouldn't have it any other way. I don't understand why the tribal, goading, hate filled nature of many football supporters is not challenged and I don't understand why people who partake in it and perpetuate it squeal so loudly about a mild case of stereotyping and prejudice. You're missing the point they say because somehow they think they get to dictate what the point is. At least that is one thing we can agree on, it doesn't matter what colour, what religion, what your job is, how much money you have in this country as soon as you attend a football match in this country you are automatically a second rate citizen, our very first away game in the premier league I attended was the 0-0 draw at Anfield and as soon as we left the train we had video cameras rammed in our face and I mean millimeters rather than inches, I asked the police why all the animosity and they just said move on before we do it. That of course is not the only incident there are 100's but unfortunately we just accept it,I was at Arsenal away and we got rammed by police horses minding our own eating chips and for no reason they charged, I had a right a go and the police started filming me so I stood straight in front of him and said great, please show this to David Cameron (the then PM) and ask him why we get treated like shit for no reason what so ever, he put the camera down and told us to go home!
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Post by Scouse on Jun 3, 2022 19:56:08 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed .. What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England. Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future. I'd love it, if we as football fans could go anywhere in the country, in the world even and be treated as just another person. Sadly we aren't and I can understand why. I don't understand why football is the only major sport where fans have to be segregated but some who've posted on here in faux outrage about prejudicial views wouldn't have it any other way. I don't understand why the tribal, goading, hate filled nature of many football supporters is not challenged and I don't understand why people who partake in it and perpetuate it squeal so loudly about a mild case of stereotyping and prejudice. You're missing the point they say because somehow they think they get to dictate what the point is. I agree whole heartedly with your wish and sentiment that if only footie fans could go anywhere and be treated as just another person .. better still as well paying welcome guests , after all we have huge buying power to help places , especially provincial towns or cities off the tourist map .. Things are improving , certainly since the dark days of the 80s when tens of thousands turned away or rather were driven away by FV , but there’s still some in most clubs that for all the progress made appear to want to drag the game backwards which is why when incidents do happen it’s important the situation is fully understood and fans aren’t used as the easy default target just because they’re fans ..if fans perpetuate that , then it’s an easy win for authorities and the media to do likewise.Of course if fans are to blame it’s equally wrong to bury our heads in the sand and blame others, but then how do you punish the don’t cares without the innocent or care passionately fans being impacted disproportionately
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 3, 2022 20:01:01 GMT
I'd love it, if we as football fans could go anywhere in the country, in the world even and be treated as just another person. Sadly we aren't and I can understand why. I don't understand why football is the only major sport where fans have to be segregated but some who've posted on here in faux outrage about prejudicial views wouldn't have it any other way. I don't understand why the tribal, goading, hate filled nature of many football supporters is not challenged and I don't understand why people who partake in it and perpetuate it squeal so loudly about a mild case of stereotyping and prejudice. You're missing the point they say because somehow they think they get to dictate what the point is. At least that is one thing we can agree on, it doesn't matter what colour, what religion, what your job is, how much money you have in this country as soon as you attend a football match in this country you are automatically a second rate citizen, our very first away game in the premier league I attended was the 0-0 draw at Anfield and as soon as we left the train we had video cameras rammed in our face and I mean millimeters rather than inches, I asked the police why all the animosity and they just said move on before we do it. That of course is not the only incident there are 100's but unfortunately we just accept it,I was at Arsenal away and we got rammed by police horses minding our own eating chips and for no reason they charged, I had a right a go and the police started filming me so I stood straight in front of him and said great, please show this to David Cameron (the then PM) and ask him why we get treated like shit for no reason what so ever, he put the camera down and told us to go home! Last time I went to Anfield a cup game before we were promoted it was grim. We were having trouble finding our parking and asked a policeman. He said do I look like a parking attendant. Inside the ground a Stoke supporter asked a policeman to move out of his view, he ignored him. A few minutes later he asked him again, no abuse just told him he was paying to watch the game and he was preventing him from doing so. Next thing I knew there were 6/8 police around him restraining him and removing him from the ground. I know they often over step but the behaviour of some football fans leads me to have some understanding of why. I don’t go away anymore called it a day when me and my Dad had to run away from the police who were herding us into the ground at Forest and us being law abiding citizens thinking we had a right to go and get chips not be herded like sheep. I would welcome the day football fans could behave like normal sports fans and not need to be segregated but can’t see it happening in my lifetime.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 3, 2022 20:03:05 GMT
I don’t defend the indefensible, nor am I anti establishment or anti police .. My late father was a police Superintendent in the Merseyside police , I’m proud of that not ashamed .. What I take issue with is the widespread generalisation of abuse and bile to people from my area ..which includes people from all ranges of life many who aren’t even footie fans .. and people acting as judge , jury and hangman on football fans when history should tell us to be cautious and await the facts before casting judgement ..once thrown we all know mud sticks even when it’s wiped off after 30 years it still leaves an unmovable stain… we all need the truth , because even if it doesn’t effect us as a club it may well impact you or your loved ones at the next tournament or game you attend with England. Personally I don’t see the appeal of going just for the party , but that’s what modern European finals & tournaments have turned into for many , some host cities openly encourage it , some such as Paris plan for it without wanting to be seen openly inviting ticketless fans ..but they all want the party goers and the revenue and hotel bookings that go with it ..the point is the party goers often out number the match goers , the party goers in the main have no intention of heading up towards the stadiums as they know they’ll get caught between two stools , turned back at a check point , not get in and not see it on a big screen or in a bar ..it’s no longer 1964 ( though I take your point ceejay ..though I suggest in the main they’d be ticketless back then as often only stands were ticketed ..and me heading off to a game ticketless few think another 10-15k would do likewise they act as individuals Normally host cities get around 18-24 moths notice for finals , not the 3 Paris got when UEFA changed the venue on or around the 22 Feb 22 was that enough time to prepare and ensure all necessary resources were in place ..that’s presumably what R Madrid are asking Equally Madrid seem to have raised the subject of muggings that Liverpool also suffered , now the odd pick pocket , but these appear to be large scale violent interactions of local organised criminal gangs targeting both sets of fans with mugging and even sexual assaults , though the sexual assaults may have been diversional tactics to help with the muggings ..did that divert police resources .. intentionally or not There’s clips of the police behaving badly by our standards , but was it within their standards ..and for every bad clip , there’s no doubt hundreds of examples of police helping fans..of course that makes boring watching ..but that evidence if it exists needs to be found Then was there really 40,000 fraudulent tickets .there was clearly some , hence the arrest in Winsford 3 days before the game , but 40k , that’s industrial scale in terms of production but also distribution..Im not into conspiracies but if true who produced them , when the going rate was £1000-1200 and the was no word on the streets of £10 poor quality versions.Then we come to the apparent existence of locals climbing in ..how did they pass through the outer security check points , was there other forces at play to turn the event into chaos As I say I don’t defend the indefensible ,it’s just genuinely , questions need to be asked and answered and lessons learnt in order to improve the safety of fans at such events in the future.
Of course there wasn't Scouse, nothing like, it's complete and utter horseshit and in the fullness of time, the lies will be exposed for exactly what they are and I wouldn't be surprised if we see resignations as a result.
This screeen capture was taken at 21.05, just where did this crowd of 40,000 fans with fake tickets disappear to, did they vanish into thin air?
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Post by Squeekster on Jun 3, 2022 20:27:02 GMT
At least that is one thing we can agree on, it doesn't matter what colour, what religion, what your job is, how much money you have in this country as soon as you attend a football match in this country you are automatically a second rate citizen, our very first away game in the premier league I attended was the 0-0 draw at Anfield and as soon as we left the train we had video cameras rammed in our face and I mean millimeters rather than inches, I asked the police why all the animosity and they just said move on before we do it. That of course is not the only incident there are 100's but unfortunately we just accept it,I was at Arsenal away and we got rammed by police horses minding our own eating chips and for no reason they charged, I had a right a go and the police started filming me so I stood straight in front of him and said great, please show this to David Cameron (the then PM) and ask him why we get treated like shit for no reason what so ever, he put the camera down and told us to go home! Last time I went to Anfield a cup game before we were promoted it was grim. We were having trouble finding our parking and asked a policeman. He said do I look like a parking attendant. Inside the ground a Stoke supporter asked a policeman to move out of his view, he ignored him. A few minutes later he asked him again, no abuse just told him he was paying to watch the game and he was preventing him from doing so. Next thing I knew there were 6/8 police around him restraining him and removing him from the ground. I know they often over step but the behaviour of some football fans leads me to have some understanding of why. I don’t go away anymore called it a day when me and my Dad had to run away from the police who were herding us into the ground at Forest and us being law abiding citizens thinking we had a right to go and get chips not be herded like sheep. I would welcome the day football fans could behave like normal sports fans and not need to be segregated but can’t see it happening in my lifetime. Sorry your dad had to go through that and it shouldn't happen if that is one of your reasons for the contemp thing I can see it a bit but I will say that is the police everywhere, you mention forest there, I too was at forest, the 3-2 win Steino and Regis goals, the home fans were goading us giving us the v's wanker signs and so on, so of course we gave it back, 2 coppers came up to me and said pack it in, when I said they were doing it he said I don't care about them it's you I'm watching,so for the rest of the game I was licking my tongue out wiggling my thumb on my nose and fingers and basically being a a kid in a school yard and I could see them really wanting to arrest me but they couldn't, true storey.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 3, 2022 20:31:58 GMT
Harrowing footage, people could so easily have died ...
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