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Post by gawa on May 1, 2022 15:31:53 GMT
May I suggest, based on team performances this season, we have much bigger problems that need sorting far more urgently than the keeper situation. I disagree. Our goalkeepers have too often let in soft goals and have rarely made saves this season that were deemed to be unexpected. Bursik may become a great goalkeeper, but he isn’t one right now. We are not going to challenge for playoffs next year with a goalkeeper who cannot stop average shots from beating him. We shouldn’t get rid, he may well get a lot better, but we should look at sending him out on loan to get more game time than he deserves here. Couldn’t have said it better myself. The lad certainly has potential but his performances and the statistics show he’s not good enough, at this stage, to be starting every week for a team aspiring to compete for playoffs/promotion. |
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Post by greenhoff on May 1, 2022 15:36:51 GMT
May I suggest, based on team performances this season, we have much bigger problems that need sorting far more urgently than the keeper situation. May I suggest you're wrong. It's one of our biggest priorities. We simply have to get a decent consistent keeper. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2022 15:38:14 GMT
May I suggest, based on team performances this season, we have much bigger problems that need sorting far more urgently than the keeper situation. May I suggest you're wrong. It's one of our biggest priorities. We simply have to get a decent consistent keeper. We need a good keeper been round the block. Mentioned Darlow a couple of times. That level of keeper a must and certainly is a priority |
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Post by kingsman on May 1, 2022 15:44:21 GMT
May I suggest, based on team performances this season, we have much bigger problems that need sorting far more urgently than the keeper situation. May I suggest you're wrong. It's one of our biggest priorities. We simply have to get a decent consistent keeper. We were last promoted with the goal keeping position covered by Steve simonsen / Russell Holt / Carlo Nash Three really good keepers Bonham/bursik / blondy is not that level of experience and consistency . Makes no sense to just assume MoN doesn't need keepers of the quality TP had , to get us promoted Daft idea on paper and this season as proved it to be a daft idea in reality too |
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Post by theonlooker on May 1, 2022 15:52:37 GMT
Some fans really need to get their heads around where this club currently sits, both on and off the pitch and the journey we need to go on to try and get back to where we once were. It involves a whole load of lower league and young player investment - both financially and also in terms of time to develop - in the hope that they either develop enough to get up to top end Championship level and/or to the point where they can be sold to raise our finances further to invest in top level Championship talent.
I hate to be the harbinger of doom here but it isn't going to be a very quick fix, so prepare yourselves for a mid to longish stay at this level unless we can strike on a formula like some clubs have done.
As for Bursik, it's already been said. He's 21 years old and developing. There will be areas of his game where he's good, some where he's decent and some that needs improvement.
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Post by werrington on May 1, 2022 15:56:01 GMT
Some fans really need to get their heads around where this club currently sits, both on and off the pitch and the journey we need to go on to try and get back to where we once were. It involves a whole load of lower league and young player investment - both financially and also in terms of time to develop - in the hope that they either develop enough to get up to top end Championship level and/or to the point where they can be sold to raise our finances further to invest in top level Championship talent. I hate to be the harbinger of doom here but it isn't going to be a very quick fix, so prepare yourselves for a mid to longish stay at this level unless we can strike on a formula like some clubs have done. As for Bursik, it's already been said. He's 21 years old and developing. There will be areas of his game where he's good, some where he's decent and some that needs improvement. Wasting your time mate They don’t grasp ffp and the reason for youth development Just throw some more money at it is the name of their game |
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Post by theonlooker on May 1, 2022 16:01:48 GMT
Some fans really need to get their heads around where this club currently sits, both on and off the pitch and the journey we need to go on to try and get back to where we once were. It involves a whole load of lower league and young player investment - both financially and also in terms of time to develop - in the hope that they either develop enough to get up to top end Championship level and/or to the point where they can be sold to raise our finances further to invest in top level Championship talent. I hate to be the harbinger of doom here but it isn't going to be a very quick fix, so prepare yourselves for a mid to longish stay at this level unless we can strike on a formula like some clubs have done. As for Bursik, it's already been said. He's 21 years old and developing. There will be areas of his game where he's good, some where he's decent and some that needs improvement. Wasting your time mate They don’t grasp ffp and the reason for youth development Just throw some more money at it is the name of their game It's getting tiresome. We have people wellying into Philogene-Bidace - oblivious to the fact it's his first real taste of senior football outside of the odd appearance for Villa. We have people launching into Harwood-Bellis - despite the fact he's still early 20's and is a football based centre half trying to develop his game. Josh Maja is getting it in the neck and has done since he signed, and nobody mentions he only played a handful of minutes before joining us due to a serious injury. We even have it towards more senior players - Bonham, jumped from League One to the Championship and it will need a period of adjustment. Thompson when he signed and still to this day. Brown has been in and out of the 'Oatcake' treatment tank. Yet the same people laud Brentford and what they do and have done over many years as a model to follow - again oblivious to the fact that they have been doing it for years and not all of their punts come off, and those that do sometimes take a few seasons to kick in. |
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Post by werrington on May 1, 2022 16:04:06 GMT
Wasting your time mate They don’t grasp ffp and the reason for youth development Just throw some more money at it is the name of their game It's getting tiresome. We have people wellying into Philogene-Bidace - oblivious to the fact it's his first real taste of senior football outside of the odd appearance for Villa. We have people launching into Harwood-Bellis - despite the fact he's still early 20's and is a football based centre half trying to develop his game. Josh Maja is getting it in the neck and has done since he signed, and nobody mentions he only played a handful of minutes before joining us due to a serious injury. We even have it towards more senior players - Bonham, jumped from League One to the Championship and it will need a period of adjustment. Thompson when he signed and still to this day. Brown has been in and out of the 'Oatcake' treatment tank. Yet the same people laud Brentford and what they do and have done over many years as a model to follow - again oblivious to the fact that they have been doing it for years and not all of their punts come off, and those that do sometimes take a few seasons to kick in. Tiresome, tedious and embarrassing are words I’d use I think it’s called the “ I want it now “ culture Anyway I’ll leave them to it |
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Post by cvillestokie on May 1, 2022 16:21:18 GMT
Some fans really need to get their heads around where this club currently sits, both on and off the pitch and the journey we need to go on to try and get back to where we once were. It involves a whole load of lower league and young player investment - both financially and also in terms of time to develop - in the hope that they either develop enough to get up to top end Championship level and/or to the point where they can be sold to raise our finances further to invest in top level Championship talent. I hate to be the harbinger of doom here but it isn't going to be a very quick fix, so prepare yourselves for a mid to longish stay at this level unless we can strike on a formula like some clubs have done. As for Bursik, it's already been said. He's 21 years old and developing. There will be areas of his game where he's good, some where he's decent and some that needs improvement. Wasting your time mate They don’t grasp ffp and the reason for youth development Just throw some more money at it is the name of their game It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Let him develop at a level that would suit him better than throwing him under a bus in a league that he’s ranked as one of the worst performers in. Im not advocating that we break the bank for a goalkeeper. There are plenty that come up on a free every year or are sitting around at clubs above us, not being played and could be available for loan. Unlike other positions, I wouldn’t like us to try and sign a goalkeeper of the age of Davies or Bonham again. I’d much prefer us to either bring in a loan or someone looking for one last spin of the wheel. That gives Bursik time to come up to a level that he currently isn’t at. I love the fact that we are bringing through youngsters as it’s a financially sound strategy in my opinion, but it doesn’t have to be for every position. Nor should we persist with it when it isn’t working. I understand development, I’d just be much less against the lad if the development wasn’t in the most important area of his position. It’s akin to saying, oh he’s a good central defender, he can pass it to the midfielder, but he can’t tackle or win an aerial duel. |
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Post by greenhoff on May 1, 2022 16:25:24 GMT
It's getting tiresome. We have people wellying into Philogene-Bidace - oblivious to the fact it's his first real taste of senior football outside of the odd appearance for Villa. We have people launching into Harwood-Bellis - despite the fact he's still early 20's and is a football based centre half trying to develop his game. Josh Maja is getting it in the neck and has done since he signed, and nobody mentions he only played a handful of minutes before joining us due to a serious injury. We even have it towards more senior players - Bonham, jumped from League One to the Championship and it will need a period of adjustment. Thompson when he signed and still to this day. Brown has been in and out of the 'Oatcake' treatment tank. Yet the same people laud Brentford and what they do and have done over many years as a model to follow - again oblivious to the fact that they have been doing it for years and not all of their punts come off, and those that do sometimes take a few seasons to kick in. Tiresome, tedious and embarrassing are words I’d use I think it’s called the “ I want it now “ culture Anyway I’ll leave them to it Pardon me for actually wanting a goal keeper that can actually stop a shot now and then. Thought I'd wandered onto a football message board. |
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Post by chuckrocky on May 1, 2022 16:28:31 GMT
Tiresome, tedious and embarrassing are words I’d use I think it’s called the “ I want it now “ culture Anyway I’ll leave them to it Pardon me for actually wanting a goal keeper that can actually stop a shot now and then. Thought I'd wandered onto a football message board. Just shut up and be happy supporting a mid-table Championship side that plays mind-numbingly dull football and shows little sign of improvement will you. |
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 1, 2022 16:34:04 GMT
Oh ffs not this again 21 year old young kid, England international being written off on the oatcake ….see Campbell also It really is becoming a cess pit this place This ⬆️……….With the exception that’s the cess pit keeps getting larger season by season |
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Post by ontheup on May 1, 2022 16:47:34 GMT
The worry for me is his shot stopping is the weakest part of his game. I expect him to make mistakes due to his age but to pull off the odd worldie now and again. I don't recall any saves where I thought how did he save that.
We always seem to get keepers against us who pull off those kind of saves.
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Post by jokker on May 1, 2022 17:04:41 GMT
[/b] He was outstanding hence the move to Leicester and to the England senior team.Comparing Bursik to Banks is ridiculous,the latter was one of the greatest of all time [/quote] Comparing Banks at the height of his career to Bursik at the start of his is even more ridiculous. Banksie and Bursik have so far travelled similar paths, making their debuts at 20, but Joe is playing for a higher placed club with huge expectations, which Banks didn't have at Chesterfield, where he was allowed to develop quietly. Banks himself has talked about making some dreadful mistakes at first. One big difference though. Banks had the full backing of his manager, whereas Bursik has nothing of the sort, and although he looks quite cocky on the pitch, any young keeper needs a manager who tells him he's stellar.[/quote] I’m sure there is more than “one big difference” between a goalkeeper who went on to be considered one of the best ever, and a young goalkeeper who can’t save basic shots. [/quote] Like the OP you're incapable of looking at Banks in his formative years and follow on to Bursik in his equally early years. Banks later career has no relevance here, as we to state obvious don't know anything about Bursik's later career. I don't think this is a very interesting discussion, do you? I'm not going to comment any further on it. |
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Post by jokker on May 1, 2022 17:05:31 GMT
May I suggest, based on team performances this season, we have much bigger problems that need sorting far more urgently than the keeper situation. May I suggest you're wrong. It's one of our biggest priorities. We simply have to get a decent consistent keeper. Well that sounds easy. It's not. |
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Post by tachyon on May 1, 2022 17:11:19 GMT
Based on the quality of the on target shots he's faced in the Championship (~100) he's allowed around 20% more goals than an average Championship keeper. That ranks him 147th out of 162 for keepers who have faced at least 20 shots since 2014. At 21 and 300 days he needs to start moving the dial. I'm not his biggest fan, but he seems okay, so could this below average performance be due to his age? What's he like compared to his peer group through the years? We possibly let go of Bachmann too early, maybe Bursik could be another. Keepers under the age of 22 (Bursik's age) typically make up around 16% of keepers who get at least one start, but the only play 9% of the minutes once you correct for there only being one keeper. So they do get more minutes as they move into the peak age, (which ends later than other positions). That's in Bursik's favour, but if he does improve it is from a very low baseline. Also, 40% of players whose shot stopping is as "good" or worse than Bursik's current level make very few appearances in the subsequent season. You really want to see more. |
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Post by werrington on May 1, 2022 17:17:57 GMT
Pardon me for actually wanting a goal keeper that can actually stop a shot now and then. Thought I'd wandered onto a football message board. Just shut up and be happy supporting a mid-table Championship side that plays mind-numbingly dull football and shows little sign of improvement will you. Who’s happy? I’m realistic and know the position we are in Happy no, I’m certainly not but I know that slaughtering and sticking the boot into young lads ( our future ) who need time is not what I want either |
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Post by baystokie on May 1, 2022 17:29:03 GMT
Samba is a dreadful goalie. Don’t you love stats.  He’s a complete basket case but Forest fans rate him highly. It’s pretty telling that the top 6 on that list play for current top 6 sides. Could imply that goalies' stats depend very much on who is in front of them and how consistently well they play? |
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Post by Do it for dobing on May 1, 2022 17:29:45 GMT
[/b] He was outstanding hence the move to Leicester and to the England senior team.Comparing Bursik to Banks is ridiculous,the latter was one of the greatest of all time [/quote] Comparing Banks at the height of his career to Bursik at the start of his is even more ridiculous. Banksie and Bursik have so far travelled similar paths, making their debuts at 20, but Joe is playing for a higher placed club with huge expectations, which Banks didn't have at Chesterfield, where he was allowed to develop quietly. Banks himself has talked about making some dreadful mistakes at first. One big difference though. Banks had the full backing of his manager, whereas Bursik has nothing of the sort, and although he looks quite cocky on the pitch, any young keeper needs a manager who tells him he's stellar.[/quote] I’m sure there is more than “one big difference” between a goalkeeper who went on to be considered one of the best ever, and a young goalkeeper who can’t save basic shots. [/quote] Like the OP you're incapable of looking at Banks in his formative years and follow on to Bursik in his equally early years. Banks later career has no relevance here, as we to state obvious don't know anything about Bursik's later career. I don't think this is a very interesting discussion, do you? I'm not going to comment any further on it.[/quote] You were the one who bought Banks into the discussion nobody else
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Post by onefatcopper on May 1, 2022 17:45:54 GMT
Crooks, Heath, Bracewell, Chapman, Bould, Adams, Foster, Commons & Collins, that’s just a few of the players that we have produced during my time as a fan. Why did they all leave this club ? Was it for the money, was it for the glory or was it because of the constant abuse and shit they had to put up with from their own supporters ?
And now we have turned against another young protege, a 21year old goalkeeper, probably the most exposed and criticised position on the pitch where there’s no where to hide. Our only hope for any sustainable success is through our youth system, we tried to buy success and that’s why we’re in this shit hole !
So Joe, keep your head down learn your trade and the first chance you have, show the same loyalty to the fans has they have to you:- LEAVE go somewhere and be a constant reminder to these jokers by earning Caps and Silverware.
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Post by chuckrocky on May 1, 2022 17:48:25 GMT
Just shut up and be happy supporting a mid-table Championship side that plays mind-numbingly dull football and shows little sign of improvement will you. Who’s happy? I’m realistic and know the position we are in Happy no, I’m certainly not but I know that slaughtering and sticking the boot into young lads ( our future ) who need time is not what I want either I don’t like slaughtering the young lads either but I don’t think that’s happened on this thread has it? People are questioning whether or not Bursik is good enough to be our number one and the stats currently back up that opinion. There’s one or two on this board at the moment that like to shoot down anyone who dare try and raise expectations |
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Post by tachyon on May 1, 2022 17:49:44 GMT
He’s a complete basket case but Forest fans rate him highly. It’s pretty telling that the top 6 on that list play for current top 6 sides. Could imply that goalies' stats depend very much on who is in front of them and how consistently well they play? You can isolate shot stopping performance by looking at the difficulty of the shots they face. A screamer in the top corner is harder to save than a 30 yarder, straight down the keeper's throat, hence save percentage is stats trivia, not stats analysis. Based on save difficulty, Samba has the 11th best shot stopping performance this season. You need a sample size of around 100 shots on target faced for true talent, rather than random luck to begin to come to the fore. |
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Post by werrington on May 1, 2022 17:51:14 GMT
Who’s happy? I’m realistic and know the position we are in Happy no, I’m certainly not but I know that slaughtering and sticking the boot into young lads ( our future ) who need time is not what I want either I don’t like slaughtering the young lads either but I don’t think that’s happened on this thread has it? People are questioning whether or not Bursik is good enough to be our number one and the stats currently back up that opinion. There’s one or two on this board at the moment that like to shoot down anyone who dare try and raise expectations Expectations? oh I have them aplenty mate I also have realism in the here and now and don’t write people off on a whim as “not good enough” There’s plenty of them on here also |
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Post by onefatcopper on May 1, 2022 17:58:03 GMT
Could imply that goalies' stats depend very much on who is in front of them and how consistently well they play? You can isolate shot stopping performance by looking at the difficulty of the shots they face. A screamer in the top corner is harder to save than a 30 yarder, straight down the keeper's throat, hence save percentage is stats trivia, not stats analysis. Based on save difficulty, Samba has the 11th best shot stopping performance this season. You need a sample size of around 100 shots on target faced for true talent, rather than random luck to begin to come to the fore. Jordon Pickford has made a wonder save today and he’s England’s N/o 1, but that doesn’t hide the fact he’s shit and a disaster waiting to happen. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 1, 2022 18:02:08 GMT
It's getting tiresome. We have people wellying into Philogene-Bidace - oblivious to the fact it's his first real taste of senior football outside of the odd appearance for Villa. We have people launching into Harwood-Bellis - despite the fact he's still early 20's and is a football based centre half trying to develop his game. Josh Maja is getting it in the neck and has done since he signed, and nobody mentions he only played a handful of minutes before joining us due to a serious injury. We even have it towards more senior players - Bonham, jumped from League One to the Championship and it will need a period of adjustment. Thompson when he signed and still to this day. Brown has been in and out of the 'Oatcake' treatment tank. Yet the same people laud Brentford and what they do and have done over many years as a model to follow - again oblivious to the fact that they have been doing it for years and not all of their punts come off, and those that do sometimes take a few seasons to kick in. Tiresome, tedious and embarrassing are words I’d use I think it’s called the “ I want it now “ culture Anyway I’ll leave them to it The want it now culture is indicative of the society we live in nowadays mate and especially the younger generation.Just imagine some of the posters on here going through the 84/85 season and many other a bad season🙄Oh and by the way it’s been a cesspit for a while now |
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on May 1, 2022 18:08:32 GMT
Crooks, Heath, Bracewell, Chapman, Bould, Adams, Foster, Commons & Collins, that’s just a few of the players that we have produced during my time as a fan. Why did they all leave this club ? Was it for the money, was it for the glory or was it because of the constant abuse and shit they had to put up with from their own supporters ? And now we have turned against another young protege, a 21year old goalkeeper, probably the most exposed and criticised position on the pitch where there’s no where to hide. Our only hope for any sustainable success is through our youth system, we tried to buy success and that’s why we’re in this shit hole So Joe, keep your head down learn your trade and the first chance you have, show the same loyalty to the fans has they have to you:- LEAVE go somewhere and be a constant reminder to these jokers by earning Caps and Silverware. Out of those names you've mentioned there, I can only recall Chapman getting abuse from the terraces!!! Don't forget, social media wasn't around in those days........and it's a good job it wasn't too, what with the kind of things you were aloud to get away with back then!!! 😳 |
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Post by thewonderstuff on May 1, 2022 18:39:07 GMT
Wasting your time mate They don’t grasp ffp and the reason for youth development Just throw some more money at it is the name of their game It's getting tiresome. We have people wellying into Philogene-Bidace - oblivious to the fact it's his first real taste of senior football outside of the odd appearance for Villa. We have people launching into Harwood-Bellis - despite the fact he's still early 20's and is a football based centre half trying to develop his game. Josh Maja is getting it in the neck and has done since he signed, and nobody mentions he only played a handful of minutes before joining us due to a serious injury. We even have it towards more senior players - Bonham, jumped from League One to the Championship and it will need a period of adjustment. Thompson when he signed and still to this day. Brown has been in and out of the 'Oatcake' treatment tank. Yet the same people laud Brentford and what they do and have done over many years as a model to follow - again oblivious to the fact that they have been doing it for years and not all of their punts come off, and those that do sometimes take a few seasons to kick in. I love our young players. More than MON by his current activity. Where fo you stand on the current regime renewing Allen's contract? |
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Post by theonlooker on May 1, 2022 19:16:42 GMT
It's getting tiresome. We have people wellying into Philogene-Bidace - oblivious to the fact it's his first real taste of senior football outside of the odd appearance for Villa. We have people launching into Harwood-Bellis - despite the fact he's still early 20's and is a football based centre half trying to develop his game. Josh Maja is getting it in the neck and has done since he signed, and nobody mentions he only played a handful of minutes before joining us due to a serious injury. We even have it towards more senior players - Bonham, jumped from League One to the Championship and it will need a period of adjustment. Thompson when he signed and still to this day. Brown has been in and out of the 'Oatcake' treatment tank. Yet the same people laud Brentford and what they do and have done over many years as a model to follow - again oblivious to the fact that they have been doing it for years and not all of their punts come off, and those that do sometimes take a few seasons to kick in. I love our young players. More than MON by his current activity. Where fo you stand on the current regime renewing Allen's contract? Good for the young players to have an old head around, and one that can contribute on the pitch too. |
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Post by onefatcopper on May 1, 2022 19:24:16 GMT
Crooks, Heath, Bracewell, Chapman, Bould, Adams, Foster, Commons & Collins, that’s just a few of the players that we have produced during my time as a fan. Why did they all leave this club ? Was it for the money, was it for the glory or was it because of the constant abuse and shit they had to put up with from their own supporters ? And now we have turned against another young protege, a 21year old goalkeeper, probably the most exposed and criticised position on the pitch where there’s no where to hide. Our only hope for any sustainable success is through our youth system, we tried to buy success and that’s why we’re in this shit hole So Joe, keep your head down learn your trade and the first chance you have, show the same loyalty to the fans has they have to you:- LEAVE go somewhere and be a constant reminder to these jokers by earning Caps and Silverware. Out of those names you've mentioned there, I can only recall Chapman getting abuse from the terraces Don't forget, social media wasn't around in those days........and it's a good job it wasn't too, what with the kind of things you were aloud to get away with back then 😳 Crooks, we sang racist chants at our own player, just because he was our own black player and so he wouldn’t mind ?  One player I missed was the late Ian Moore, he got dogs abuse from the Boothen end, even when he was scoring regularly in division 1 and playing for England’s U23s, Chapman, well it’s no secret that there’s no love lost by both fans and player and he did have the last laugh, Bould got constant abuse because of his stature and ill perceived cluelessness even though he was playing out of position. Heath & Bracewell was understandable, the club was fucked and the fees brought in good players. Most professional athletes tend to be egotistical and follow social media just because of their own vanity, so most are well aware of what goes on and what is said about them and unfortunately shit sticks |
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Post by nonameface on May 1, 2022 20:52:25 GMT
I'm not his biggest fan, but he seems okay, so could this below average performance be due to his age? What's he like compared to his peer group through the years? We possibly let go of Bachmann too early, maybe Bursik could be another. Keepers under the age of 22 (Bursik's age) typically make up around 16% of keepers who get at least one start, but the only play 9% of the minutes once you correct for there only being one keeper. So they do get more minutes as they move into the peak age, (which ends later than other positions). That's in Bursik's favour, but if he does improve it is from a very low baseline. Also, 40% of players whose shot stopping is as "good" or worse than Bursik's current level make very few appearances in the subsequent season. You really want to see more. "if he does improve" makes me feel you don't think he will, or his more recent performances have got worse. Or possibly due to the 40% stat. Whats causing his poor shot stopping, incorrect positioning or height/reach? |
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One player I missed was the late Ian Moore, he got dogs abuse from the Boothen end, even when he was scoring regularly in division 1 and playing for England’s U23s, Chapman, well it’s no secret that there’s no love lost by both fans and player and he did have the last laugh, Bould got constant abuse because of his stature and ill perceived cluelessness even though he was playing out of position.
