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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 26, 2022 1:08:03 GMT
He should have been playing to improve his value. The way he’s been handled has been shocking. It’s the playing that’s made it worse. Simple shot after simple shot passing through him as if it was someone else’s job to stop them. He was playing fine. He let the odd one he shouldn’t do but then the way he was dropped, put in and then dropped was just appalling. Same for the other keepers too. But the other keepers wouldn’t have been worth 5m after a seasons worth of games. Bursik may have been. Again we have messed up a chance to add value to a player and get the most money we could for an asset. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 26, 2022 1:09:02 GMT
What’s decreased his value has not been playing him. He’s still going to get a move. That’s hypothetical. The manager pissed around with 3 goalkeepers and has stunted the career of two of them and given the most game time to a League One standard at best nobody. It’s been terrible. He’s played a lot of games, over 20 each of the last two seasons and he was injured for an extended period last season too. I agree though that the goalkeeping department has been very poorly managed. And now we have Davies off the books who was earning a handsome sum, I believe, I really hope we invest in this area. I’d much rather money spent on a goalkeeper that makes a difference than take a risk with Bursik. The last two seasons haven’t worked with Bursik. Insanity is doing the same thing multiple times expecting different results. There was a massive reward with the risk of Bursik. The manager completely fucked that one up. |
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Post by cvillestokie on Jun 26, 2022 1:14:55 GMT
It’s the playing that’s made it worse. Simple shot after simple shot passing through him as if it was someone else’s job to stop them. He was playing fine. He let the odd one he shouldn’t do but then the way he was dropped, put in and then dropped was just appalling. Same for the other keepers too. But the other keepers wouldn’t have been worth 5m after a seasons worth of games. Bursik may have been. Again we have messed up a chance to add value to a player and get the most money we could for an asset. His shot stopping percentage is markedly below average for the regular starters in the league. Your solution to leaking goal after goal is to keep playing him in the hopes that he stops being crap at his job? |
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Post by gawa on Jun 26, 2022 1:20:13 GMT
He’s played a lot of games, over 20 each of the last two seasons and he was injured for an extended period last season too. I agree though that the goalkeeping department has been very poorly managed. And now we have Davies off the books who was earning a handsome sum, I believe, I really hope we invest in this area. I’d much rather money spent on a goalkeeper that makes a difference than take a risk with Bursik. The last two seasons haven’t worked with Bursik. Insanity is doing the same thing multiple times expecting different results. There was a massive reward with the risk of Bursik. The manager completely fucked that one up. The manager fucked up in introducing him to the first team too early and then keeping him there. Should have went back to League One last season to develop. And now we’re left with the difficult decision of: Renew his contract on better terms and make him the number one. Sell him and get a transfer fee and use that money to invest in a seasoned goalkeeper who can make an immediate impact. Long term option one is better. Short term option two. I think most of the fan base would agree though that he’s not done enough as of yet to prove he should be the number one. I think you’re in the minority with your point of view. I understand though that you’re thinking of things from a much more long term perspective in which case you’re probably right. But if we want a proper push for playoffs then we need a different goalkeeper. You can’t have it both ways and want instant success as well as prioritising youth. It needs to be a balance and sometimes you need to sacrifice one for the other. |
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Post by andystokey on Jun 26, 2022 6:38:04 GMT
There was a massive reward with the risk of Bursik. The manager completely fucked that one up. The manager fucked up in introducing him to the first team too early and then keeping him there. Should have went back to League One last season to develop. And now we’re left with the difficult decision of: Renew his contract on better terms and make him the number one. Sell him and get a transfer fee and use that money to invest in a seasoned goalkeeper who can make an immediate impact. Long term option one is better. Short term option two. I think most of the fan base would agree though that he’s not done enough as of yet to prove he should be the number one. I think you’re in the minority with your point of view. I understand though that you’re thinking of things from a much more long term perspective in which case you’re probably right. But if we want a proper push for playoffs then we need a different goalkeeper. You can’t have it both ways and want instant success as well as prioritising youth. It needs to be a balance and sometimes you need to sacrifice one for the other. We could offer option #3 namely a better contract and a L1 loan. The only reason we won't do that is partly because we are skint and secondly the manager's job is on the line. No one gets rid of a regular England U21 goalkeeper with 12 years of career left to unfold unless they've fucked up somewhere. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 26, 2022 7:57:11 GMT
There was a massive reward with the risk of Bursik. The manager completely fucked that one up. The manager fucked up in introducing him to the first team too early and then keeping him there. Should have went back to League One last season to develop. And now we’re left with the difficult decision of: Renew his contract on better terms and make him the number one. Sell him and get a transfer fee and use that money to invest in a seasoned goalkeeper who can make an immediate impact. Long term option one is better. Short term option two. I think most of the fan base would agree though that he’s not done enough as of yet to prove he should be the number one. I think you’re in the minority with your point of view. I understand though that you’re thinking of things from a much more long term perspective in which case you’re probably right. But if we want a proper push for playoffs then we need a different goalkeeper. You can’t have it both ways and want instant success as well as prioritising youth. It needs to be a balance and sometimes you need to sacrifice one for the other. You are right in that if you use the first team to bring on youngsters it might (or might not) pay off in the long run but it will knacker your chances in the short term. The thing is those clamouring to play the youngsters won't admit this and will simply blame the manager when they make the inevitable mistakes and we drop points. I don't think you should use the first team as a proving ground for youngsters - the only reason for anyone to be in the team (unless it's a dead rubber) is that they are the best option available. The loan system is the way to develop youngsters. |
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Post by Do it for dobing on Jun 26, 2022 8:14:30 GMT
The simple facts are he does not look the business at the moment and his demeanour on the pitch is not inspiring. He doesn't command his area and doesn't save many shots on target
They maybe a good goalkeeper in him but to find that out he needs a season in the lower leagues, not sure that he wants to take a step back
Last season Bonham looked far better than Bursik and he saved shots even a penalty. Hopefully we don't risk flirting with Bursik again until he has proven himself elsewhere
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Post by iamstokie on Jun 26, 2022 8:24:14 GMT
The simple facts are he does not look the business at the moment and his demeanour on the pitch is not inspiring. He doesn't command his area and doesn't save many shots on target They maybe a good goalkeeper in him but to find that out he needs a season in the lower leagues, not sure that he wants to take a step back Last season Bonham looked far better than Bursik and he saved shots even a penalty. Hopefully we don't risk flirting with Bursik again until he has proven himself elsewhere Exactly this |
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Post by questionable on Jun 26, 2022 8:26:50 GMT
The same people on the oatcake who think we should extend his contract would be complaining 2 years later when we’ve got a keeper on high wages that isn’t good enough and that we can’t get off our books. It’s a balance of risk v reward. Our ambitions right now are to enter the playoffs, the statistics show that GK has been one of our weakest positions and that Joe Bursik is below average in this league, currently. Too many people on here are happy to judge him on his international credentials and ignore his lacklustre performances at Stoke. And while he has represented England a lot, he wasn’t always first choice throughout those age groups. Curtis Anderson was #1 for England U17 when they won the World Cup, he’s now playing non league at Lancaster. Jack Butland and Angus Gunn who many thought weren’t good enough, both have represented EnglandU21 more than Bursik. And dare I say it, both put in better performances for Stoke than Bursik has. If Bursik is expecting to be number one or wants a big pay rise then he needs to work for it and show he’s worth it. If he’s not willing to do that then we should cash in while we can and get someone capable of matching our ambitions right now. Not someone with potential who may or may not push on. And that doesn’t mean I don’t believe Bursik can become a very good goalkeeper. But sometimes you have the right player at the wrong time and I feel both parties need to make a mutual ageeement and be honest about what they need right now. Bursik might want guaranteed first team football. O’Neil will want to be challenging for playoffs. If an agreement can’t be made that keeps both parties happy then sometimes it’s best to cash in while you can. And you can’t really say he hasn’t been given opportunities either. He’s played a lot of game. He should have been playing to improve his value. The way he’s been handled has been shocking. Come off it Bayern how could we keep playing him to increase his value, our form was utter rubbish which he massively contributed towards and watching a young lost boy pretending to a professional footballer was embarrassing, it’s a results business and was dropped rightfully and needs to move on if were serious about being a top 6 candidate. I don’t like MON as he’s well crap but his treatment of Bursik is just. |
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Post by ontheup on Jun 26, 2022 9:09:53 GMT
I'm confused (and yes it does happen a lot).
How would playing a player who's stats are a bit rubbish increase his value. Unless he improved markedly the interest and hence his value would drop off.
At the moment he is the current England U21 so his stock is high. I'd sell before they realise he's not very good.
If he goes on to become a top keeper and worth a fortune so what (I'm sure we'll insert a sell on clause). We need a dependable keeper now and invest the money in other important areas of the team.
This has all the potential to go a bit Butland. People were up in arms on here and chucking values like £30 million around when they thought we were going to sell him on the cheap. In the end we couldn't give him away. He was never that keeper even before injury.
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Post by MilanStokie on Jun 26, 2022 9:15:39 GMT
I still think it's very unfair criticism on bursik. I get we all want success and a promotion ready keeper, but I don't think bursiks form is down to him just not being good enough. For me the blame lies with MON. He has not handled the keeper situation well at all in the last 2 years. Dropping Davies or bursik every other week for a mistake, I'm sure did wonders for their confidence. Bonham was making mistakes and inexplicably decided to keep him playing.
I'm not sure we can salvage the situation anymore so probably best to sell now, but it's a shame. I still think bursik will have a very decent career.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 26, 2022 9:32:44 GMT
The simple facts are he does not look the business at the moment and his demeanour on the pitch is not inspiring. He doesn't command his area and doesn't save many shots on target They maybe a good goalkeeper in him but to find that out he needs a season in the lower leagues, not sure that he wants to take a step back Last season Bonham looked far better than Bursik and he saved shots even a penalty. Hopefully we don't risk flirting with Bursik again until he has proven himself elsewhere Just depends which games you are talking about theres quite a few where Bonham looked far worse than Bursik. His distribution is also of a worse quality and far too slow. He's a Tommy Smith of goalkeepers. |
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j1m
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Post by j1m on Jun 26, 2022 9:39:10 GMT
What happened to Tachyon's post??!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 26, 2022 9:44:51 GMT
I still think it's very unfair criticism on bursik. I get we all want success and a promotion ready keeper, but I don't think bursiks form is down to him just not being good enough. For me the blame lies with MON. He has not handled the keeper situation well at all in the last 2 years. Dropping Davies or bursik every other week for a mistake, I'm sure did wonders for their confidence. Bonham was making mistakes and inexplicably decided to keep him playing. I'm not sure we can salvage the situation anymore so probably best to sell now, but it's a shame. I still think bursik will have a very decent career. Blaming MON for Bursik not stepping up to the mark is ridiculous. And blaming him for dropping him when he was costing us points is even worse. If MoN deserves any blame it's for having too much confidence in Bursik being good enough and not getting a better keeper in to replace him if he wasn't up to the task. Hopefully we'll get someone in and not compound the problem. You can either support the manager in giving young players a chance when they are not proven and accept the consequences when it doesn't come off or you can blame the manager for playing youngsters too soon and having a negative impact the on results. You can't have it both ways. |
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Post by s7oke on Jun 26, 2022 9:46:07 GMT
Anyway
Bursik is good enough
Just remember a keeper is only as good as his defence really and ours last season was quite simply gash
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Post by ontheup on Jun 26, 2022 9:56:53 GMT
What happened to Tachyon's post??! I thought I had lost my marbles. I replied but it came up as a stand alone post so I deleted mine. |
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j1m
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Post by j1m on Jun 26, 2022 10:00:52 GMT
Glad it wasn't just me then!
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Post by ontheup on Jun 26, 2022 10:02:53 GMT
Anyway Bursik is good enough Just remember a keeper is only as good as his defence really and ours last season was quite simply gash You didn't see Tachyon's post then before it got deleted. Said something along the lines of if you ran 10,000 simulations of the shot map Bursik faced with an average champo keeper you would get 1 time out of a hundred when an average keeper would let in more goals. That's very damning. |
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Post by tachyon on Jun 26, 2022 10:04:27 GMT
Bursik Shot PlacementShot placement for all attempts on target faced by JB in Championship. Blue circles are goals, orange saves. Bigger the circle, the more difficult the "save". Replace JB with a Championship average keeper, simulate every attempt 10,000 times and you only concede more goals than JB did once every 100 simulations. Sub optimal for all concerned. (site's image upload is playing up).
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jun 26, 2022 10:07:02 GMT
Anyway Bursik is good enough Just remember a keeper is only as good as his defence really and ours last season was quite simply gash You didn't see Tachyon's post then before it got deleted. Said something along the lines of if you ran 10,000 simulations of the shot map Bursik faced with an average champo keeper you would get 1 time out of a hundred when an average keeper would let in more goals. That's very damning. England must have its wankest ever crop of young Keepers is the logical conclusion then? |
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Post by ontheup on Jun 26, 2022 10:11:04 GMT
Bursik Shot PlacementShot placement for all attempts on target faced by JB in Championship. Blue circles are goals, orange saves. Bigger the circle, the more difficult the "save". Replace JB with a Championship average keeper, simulate every attempt 10,000 times and you only concede more goals than JB did once every 100 simulations. Sub optimal for all concerned. (site's image upload is playing up). Bournemouth must have analysts like you. Why would they be interested in JB? Is he likely to improve significantly? Love your work |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 26, 2022 10:14:16 GMT
I still think it's very unfair criticism on bursik. I get we all want success and a promotion ready keeper, but I don't think bursiks form is down to him just not being good enough. For me the blame lies with MON. He has not handled the keeper situation well at all in the last 2 years. Dropping Davies or bursik every other week for a mistake, I'm sure did wonders for their confidence. Bonham was making mistakes and inexplicably decided to keep him playing. I'm not sure we can salvage the situation anymore so probably best to sell now, but it's a shame. I still think bursik will have a very decent career. I'm glad someone else saw the situation for what it was. When he put Bonham in the team he was the worst of the three for a number of games whereas the other two got dropped on a whim, neither of them had a string of poor performances because they were dropped after a mistake never mind a whole bad game. Rubbish management and that's without getting into the disciplinary situation. If a player offends against a disciplinary code decide on a proportional punishment and move on. Pretty sure that's caused a situation where the player wouldn't sign a new contract even if offered one, so I agree that we now don't have much choice but to sell if an offer comes in. Can't be doing with managers holding petty grudges, they're the ones who're supposed to be more mature and able to rise above it. Young men naturally push boundries. |
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 26, 2022 10:15:06 GMT
Presumably using the same or similar data tachyon is using.   In terms of the 40 keepers that played over 30% of minutes for their team in last season's Championship, Opta's XG prevented metric ranks: Davies was 19/40 Bonham was 24/40 Bursik was 38/40 I think he really looks the part with the ball at his feet (and the data over any specific single season will be small and noisy) but that isn't great. |
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 26, 2022 10:16:26 GMT
Those stats are very damning, but I wonder if or what else is at play here?
How does those stats stack up against Bonham, who was placed in a similar situation last season?
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jun 26, 2022 10:19:29 GMT
Those stats are very damning, but I wonder if or what else is at play here? How does those stats stack up against Bonham, who was placed in a similar situation last season? What are his stats for England would be my question or do we have utter incompetents at that level both on and off the pitch? |
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 26, 2022 10:19:32 GMT
Bursik Shot PlacementShot placement for all attempts on target faced by JB in Championship. Blue circles are goals, orange saves. Bigger the circle, the more difficult the "save". Replace JB with a Championship average keeper, simulate every attempt 10,000 times and you only concede more goals than JB did once every 100 simulations. Sub optimal for all concerned. (site's image upload is playing up). Bournemouth must have analysts like you. Why would they be interested in JB? Is he likely to improve significantly? Love your work His distribution is good and quick but the stats can't lie that much shot stopping needs to improve massively. Suppose all keepers of that age have areas they need to improve on though one's that cost goals are obviously not something you want. |
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Post by slicko on Jun 26, 2022 10:21:03 GMT
I don’t believe any player is ever dropped on match day form alone. Holden, Delap, our manager, analysis team and goalkeeping coach must have arrived at what they believe to be the best solution based on more than a 90 minute performance.
C’mon guys, be fair in your assertions. We have a new season looming and a refreshed squad.
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Post by ontheup on Jun 26, 2022 10:21:33 GMT
Presumably using the same or similar data tachyon is using. In terms of the 40 keepers that played over 30% of minutes for their team in last season's Championship, Opta's XG prevented metric ranks: Davies was 19/40 Bonham was 24/40 Bursik was 38/40 I think he really looks the part with the ball at his feet (and the data over any specific single season will be small and noisy) but that isn't great. Basically we had three very poor Keepers last season. It has to be priority number 1. |
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 26, 2022 10:22:42 GMT
Those stats are very damning, but I wonder if or what else is at play here? How does those stats stack up against Bonham, who was placed in a similar situation last season? What are his stats for England would be my question or do we have utter incompetents at that level both on and off the pitch? Given the U21s were managed for years by Aidy Boothroyd, I'd be careful where you take that level of questioning...! |
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Post by willieeetmiout on Jun 26, 2022 10:23:14 GMT
The simple facts are he does not look the business at the moment and his demeanour on the pitch is not inspiring. He doesn't command his area and doesn't save many shots on target They maybe a good goalkeeper in him but to find that out he needs a season in the lower leagues, not sure that he wants to take a step back Last season Bonham looked far better than Bursik and he saved shots even a penalty. Hopefully we don't risk flirting with Bursik again until he has proven himself elsewhere Exactly this I'm sorry to piss on your respective bonfires but he saved more shots last season than Bonham and the possible new signing Clark. He % ratio was 7% worse than Bonham's but 5% better than Clarks. His pass accuracy pisses on them both with it being 17% better than Bonham's and 30% better than Clarks. Add in he is young and will improve markedly compared to the others and it shows what a load of tripe you are talking. |
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