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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 29, 2022 13:00:17 GMT
I never said I know our exact position regarding FFP. I said I think we are not in a position to spend much unless we sell and that is based on what I have heard about our position with respect to FFP from the club and others more knowledgeable than myself about the matter. My "pessimism" (and by nature I'm an optimist) is based on available information. Your "optimism" appears to be based on pure wishful thinking and choosing to wilfully ignore the information that is available about our financial position. As things stand I'm willing to accept I might be wrong and you might be right but I think I'm more likely to be right than you because at least I'm taking into account the available evidence. And I don't need to be an expert or claim special knowledge to hold that view. My optimism is based on the fact that I don't think it could possibly be as tight as people are claiming it is. I've already explained in a post above why it would be foolhardy to hogtie ourselves from a playing staff perspective if it's likely we'll breach(ie we need to make a £2M profit). Even if it was touch and go I think it would be gambling with the clubs prospects not to recruit to make life easier for yourself under any sort of embargo. So I can only conclude that the club are absolutely confident of not breaching therefore there must be a comfortable contingency into which they might decide to dip. You tell me whether that's wishful thinking or reasonable deduction. So you arguement is: 1 If we were close to breaching FFP the sensible thing to do would be to throw money at players in order to ensure we survive an inevitable points deduction. 2 The fact that the club isn't going gung ho in the transfer market indicates we are in a reasonably good position financially so we must have a contingency we can dip into to fund some transfers. That is not a reasonable deduction. It's barking mad. 1 Any points deduction will take into account what the club can say in its defence. If a club were to chuck money into transfers with the express intention of mitigating any points deduction (ie deliberately breath FFP as a conscious strategy) they would end up with a far bigger points deduction than if they put their hand up and being upfront about their situation and point to the fact that they hadn't blown a wad of cash on transfers. What you are proposing isn't a clever strategy - it's nuts. 2 The fact that the club isn't spending money is more easily explained by the fact that we have sensible owners who are worried about an FFP breach. Your "deduction" is based on a convoluted interpretation of what is happening which includes the assumption that our owners are willing to gamble the club's future on some mad strategy that could see the club relegated and its reputation for playing by the rules ripped to shreds. Applying Occam's Razor (the simpler explanation is usually correct) it's more likely that we are running close to the wind with respect to FFP. You are thinking like a punter - gamble against the odds in the hope of making gains. Our owners are bookies - they understand that betting against the odds is ultimately a mugs game and are making a fortune out of "optimists" like yourself.
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Post by independent on Jun 29, 2022 13:05:04 GMT
Swiss Ramble @swissramble However, #SCFC are likely to be facing bigger FFP challenges now, as the 2022 three-year monitoring period will drop the last season in the Premier League, so the allowable loss will fall from £61m to £39m (the £42m loss for 2019 and 2020/21 average is already higher than this).
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Post by dirtclod on Jun 29, 2022 13:06:57 GMT
It might be that staying in compliance with FFP is far tougher than some may assume? I'm certain that it's complex when looking at corporate books vs. these set of rules. You've got the neighborhood bully, COVID lurking around and threatening to screw things up even further. Then some blithering fool at Man United buys some player for uber-millions, in one stroke introducing "inflation" that filters down through all of football. The agents all start snorting coke at the wrong time... Then we do the ultimate, buy a West Brom reject or some Super Eagle that either doesn't pan out totally, or just doesn't deliver the expected success. Multiply that over 4 or 5 players and presto! Welcome to Stoke! So far, the club seems to be rising to the challenge on the FFP front, given what they've created for themselves to clean up. It's just the action on the pitch that impersonates "The Benny Hill Show" at times. This league has had to get out the Cat O'Nine Tails on what, 2,3 clubs pretty much every year? Doesn't sound easy to stay in "compliance" to me. Smack down points-reductions, (And if your not Derby) completely wind you up and sayonara in months. Yes, clubs do stupid things to get into these predicaments [Insert a F**K YOU ROWETT!! here] (Nod to 'Duck) It's almost a certainty that, due to the lack of information on our side that things appear even further "afield." But I too believe that the next few weeks will give us a better idea of where we are currently in regards to Financial Foul Play. Sounds like you're trying have a pop there youth! Rowett is a complete and utter C##T, Ww wouldn't be in the mess we were in if it wasn't for that Tw@t and you know it!!!!! No, I'm not having a pop at you. The damage that was done under Rowett was deep, severe and long-lasting.
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Post by Goonie on Jun 29, 2022 13:08:13 GMT
My optimism is based on the fact that I don't think it could possibly be as tight as people are claiming it is. I've already explained in a post above why it would be foolhardy to hogtie ourselves from a playing staff perspective if it's likely we'll breach(ie we need to make a £2M profit). Even if it was touch and go I think it would be gambling with the clubs prospects not to recruit to make life easier for yourself under any sort of embargo. So I can only conclude that the club are absolutely confident of not breaching therefore there must be a comfortable contingency into which they might decide to dip. You tell me whether that's wishful thinking or reasonable deduction. So you arguement is: 1 If we were close to breaching FFP the sensible thing to do would be to throw money at players in order to ensure we survive an inevitable points deduction. 2 The fact that the club isn't going gung ho in the transfer market indicates we are in a reasonably good position financially so we must have a contingency we can dip into to fund some transfers. That is not a reasonable deduction. It's barking mad. 1 Any points deduction will take into account what the club can say in its defence. If a club were to chuck money into transfers with the express intention of mitigating any points deduction (ie deliberately breath FFP as a conscious strategy) they would end up with a far bigger points deduction than if they put their hand up and being upfront about their situation and point to the fact that they hadn't blown a wad of cash on transfers. What you are proposing isn't a clever strategy - it's nuts. 2 The fact that the club isn't spending money is more easily explained by the fact that we have sensible owners who are worried about an FFP breach. Your "deduction" is based on a convoluted interpretation of what is happening which includes the assumption that our owners are willing to gamble the club's future on some mad strategy that could see the club relegated and its reputation for playing by the rules ripped to shreds. Applying Occam's Razor (the simpler explanation is usually correct) it's more likely that we are running close to the wind with respect to FFP. You are thinking like a punter - gamble against the odds in the hope of making gains. Our owners are bookies - they understand that betting against the odds is ultimately a mugs game and are making a fortune out of "optimists" like yourself. Reasonable and logical explanation 👍
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 29, 2022 13:20:04 GMT
You're leaping to conclusions again fella gambling institutions of any kind don't see a penny of my income(unless you class an ST as a gamble, it's more akin to a flagrant waste). I just don't agree with your assertation that trying to comply and knowingly breaching would result in an enourmously different punishment. Much like going into administration the punishment will be much the same not a case of the degree or intention of the breach, they really don't do mitigating circumstances. Never ceases to amaze me how people on here are so sure of that their opinion is correct and the only option. Relegation is one thing, a reputation to playing by the rules isn't even worth a 1 goal difference over a season. We'll see what gambling with the clubs future looks like if you're right and we end up under an embargo with a bunch of cheapo players but I doubt very much we'll find out because as I said my feeling is they're absolutely confident they will comply.
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Post by independent on Jun 29, 2022 13:21:52 GMT
You will never change anyone's opinion on here with facts. There is no known cure for stupidity and idiots will still maintain that they are right no matter what Maybe we should get hyaduck to have a look at the accounts.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 29, 2022 13:25:48 GMT
Swiss Ramble @swissramble However, #SCFC are likely to be facing bigger FFP challenges now, as the 2022 three-year monitoring period will drop the last season in the Premier League, so the allowable loss will fall from £61m to £39m (the £42m loss for 2019 and 2020/21 average is already higher than this). You're using a sentence with the word likely to try to prove your point? the word screams supposition. Our losses should comfortably see us breach FFP but somehow we don't. I don't know how the fuck we've got away with it and doubt very much that you do either.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jun 29, 2022 14:01:34 GMT
You're leaping to conclusions again fella gambling institutions of any kind don't see a penny of my income(unless you class an ST as a gamble, it's more akin to a flagrant waste). I just don't agree with your assertation that trying to comply and knowingly breaching would result in an enourmously different punishment. Much like going into administration the punishment will be much the same not a case of the degree or intention of the breach, they really don't do mitigating circumstances. Never ceases to amaze me how people on here are so sure of that their opinion is correct and the only option. Relegation is one thing, a reputation to playing by the rules isn't even worth a 1 goal difference over a season. We'll see what gambling with the clubs future looks like if you're right and we end up under an embargo with a bunch of cheapo players but I doubt very much we'll find out because as I said my feeling is they're absolutely confident they will comply. Before a points deduction is applied there is a discussion between the club and the league and as I understand it the penalty is determined by the arguements presented by the club. The league went after Derby big time because they had reason to believe they deliberately tried to game FFP by applying an inappropriate accounting practice. Derby tried to deny it and the rest is history. Derby tried to do what you are proposing - game FFP. It didn't end well. The importance of reputation is down to the importance the person whose reputation is at stake thinks it's worth. You may not put much store by your reputation but the Coates family pride themselves on being responsible, local owners. You might risk that reputation but they won't. You are also making the assumption that players you pay a transfer fee for are inevitably better than those you get on a free. In the light of of our recent history this couldn't be further from the truth.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 29, 2022 14:05:29 GMT
This could explain Hull trying to flash the cash....
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jun 29, 2022 14:06:21 GMT
Swiss Ramble @swissramble However, #SCFC are likely to be facing bigger FFP challenges now, as the 2022 three-year monitoring period will drop the last season in the Premier League, so the allowable loss will fall from £61m to £39m (the £42m loss for 2019 and 2020/21 average is already higher than this). Swiss Ramble makes no comment on the Collins deal which clearly saved us. If we were in trouble during last season we would have been out under sanctions. The fact we weren’t suggested maybe we have got away with it
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Post by wuzza on Jun 29, 2022 14:30:07 GMT
You're leaping to conclusions again fella gambling institutions of any kind don't see a penny of my income(unless you class an ST as a gamble, it's more akin to a flagrant waste). I just don't agree with your assertation that trying to comply and knowingly breaching would result in an enourmously different punishment. Much like going into administration the punishment will be much the same not a case of the degree or intention of the breach, they really don't do mitigating circumstances. Never ceases to amaze me how people on here are so sure of that their opinion is correct and the only option. Relegation is one thing, a reputation to playing by the rules isn't even worth a 1 goal difference over a season. We'll see what gambling with the clubs future looks like if you're right and we end up under an embargo with a bunch of cheapo players but I doubt very much we'll find out because as I said my feeling is they're absolutely confident they will comply. Before a points deduction is applied there is a discussion between the club and the league and as I understand it the penalty is determined by the arguements presented by the club. The league went after Derby big time because they had reason to believe they deliberately tried to game FFP by applying an inappropriate accounting practice. Derby tried to deny it and the rest is history. Derby tried to do what you are proposing - game FFP. It didn't end well. The importance of reputation is down to the importance the person whose reputation is at stake thinks it's worth. You may not put much store by your reputation but the Coates family pride themselves on being responsible, local owners. You might risk that reputation but they won't. You are also making the assumption that players you pay a transfer fee for are inevitably better than those you get on a free. In the light of of our recent history this couldn't be further from the truth. You would really like to think the EFL apply some common sense in that they can clearly see if an owner is likely to threaten the existence of the club with their dealings which patently the Coates family won’t. Doubtful that they do but it would be nice.
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Post by etebojan on Jun 29, 2022 14:43:34 GMT
MON dropping the Liam Mccarron signing under the radar. More please Michael!
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 29, 2022 14:44:18 GMT
You're leaping to conclusions again fella gambling institutions of any kind don't see a penny of my income(unless you class an ST as a gamble, it's more akin to a flagrant waste). I just don't agree with your assertation that trying to comply and knowingly breaching would result in an enourmously different punishment. Much like going into administration the punishment will be much the same not a case of the degree or intention of the breach, they really don't do mitigating circumstances. Never ceases to amaze me how people on here are so sure of that their opinion is correct and the only option. Relegation is one thing, a reputation to playing by the rules isn't even worth a 1 goal difference over a season. We'll see what gambling with the clubs future looks like if you're right and we end up under an embargo with a bunch of cheapo players but I doubt very much we'll find out because as I said my feeling is they're absolutely confident they will comply. Before a points deduction is applied there is a discussion between the club and the league and as I understand it the penalty is determined by the arguements presented by the club. The league went after Derby big time because they had reason to believe they deliberately tried to game FFP by applying an inappropriate accounting practice. Derby tried to deny it and the rest is history. Derby tried to do what you are proposing - game FFP. It didn't end well. The importance of reputation is down to the importance the person whose reputation is at stake thinks it's worth. You may not put much store by your reputation but the Coates family pride themselves on being responsible, local owners. You might risk that reputation but they won't. You are also making the assumption that players you pay a transfer fee for are inevitably better than those you get on a free. In the light of of our recent history this couldn't be further from the truth. WTF are you going on about Derby got an automatic 12pts deduction for entering administration absolutely nothing to do with FFP. So if they were deliberately trying to game FFP it cost them 9pts which is more than surmountable, Reading got 6pts both sanctions were agreed by negotiation between the clubs and the league. So we're talking a likely difference of 3pts for playing nice. Just not worth not trying to get out in front of any embargo for. Maybe the Coates wouldn't agree thats why they're so rubbish at running a modern football club just not ruthless enough.
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Post by pushon on Jun 29, 2022 14:48:51 GMT
Swiss Ramble @swissramble However, #SCFC are likely to be facing bigger FFP challenges now, as the 2022 three-year monitoring period will drop the last season in the Premier League, so the allowable loss will fall from £61m to £39m (the £42m loss for 2019 and 2020/21 average is already higher than this). You're using a sentence with the word likely to try to prove your point? the word screams supposition. Our losses should comfortably see us breach FFP but somehow we don't. I don't know how the fuck we've got away with it and doubt very much that you do either. You'll need to ask Tony Scholes👀
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 29, 2022 14:56:51 GMT
You're using a sentence with the word likely to try to prove your point? the word screams supposition. Our losses should comfortably see us breach FFP but somehow we don't. I don't know how the fuck we've got away with it and doubt very much that you do either. You'll need to ask Tony Scholes👀 I think he's played a blinder keeping us from being clobbered for FFP the covid write off were complete and utter bollox but it seems to have worked so every credit to him. Didn't get much else right in how many years mind. Just when you need a pandemic to come along to bury your incompetence under eh Boris.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jun 29, 2022 14:57:27 GMT
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jun 29, 2022 14:59:47 GMT
Swiss Ramble @swissramble However, #SCFC are likely to be facing bigger FFP challenges now, as the 2022 three-year monitoring period will drop the last season in the Premier League, so the allowable loss will fall from £61m to £39m (the £42m loss for 2019 and 2020/21 average is already higher than this). You're using a sentence with the word likely to try to prove your point? the word screams supposition. Our losses should comfortably see us breach FFP but somehow we don't. I don't know how the fuck we've got away with it and doubt very much that you do either. Read the Swiss Ramble thread especially the section on how our published accounting losses translate into FFP losses, take into account the Collins deal and then you will u detest and how we stayed within the rules. And try and understand the process. Clubs meet the EFL regularly, you don’t just say suddenly your club is going to make a loss. Just because you get a deduction doesn’t reset the clock, you still have to adjust your future spending to meet the targets in future seasons
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Jun 29, 2022 15:02:01 GMT
MON dropping the Liam Mccarron signing under the radar. More please Michael! I bloody love Jeremiah Johnson. A stone cold classic.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 29, 2022 15:07:19 GMT
You're using a sentence with the word likely to try to prove your point? the word screams supposition. Our losses should comfortably see us breach FFP but somehow we don't. I don't know how the fuck we've got away with it and doubt very much that you do either. Read the Swiss Ramble thread especially the section on how our published accounting losses translate into FFP losses, take into account the Collins deal and then you will u detest and how we stayed within the rules. And try and understand the process. Clubs meet the EFL regularly, you don’t just say suddenly your club is going to make a loss. Just because you get a deduction doesn’t reset the clock, you still have to adjust your future spending to meet the targets in future seasons I'm not sure I want to try to understand how covid made Wimmer and co worthless because imo it's complete and utter bullshit. I'm glad we look to have got away with it but for anyone to look at what's gone on then tell me you shouldn't try to game the system is laughable.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 29, 2022 15:10:39 GMT
You're using a sentence with the word likely to try to prove your point? the word screams supposition. Our losses should comfortably see us breach FFP but somehow we don't. I don't know how the fuck we've got away with it and doubt very much that you do either. Read the Swiss Ramble thread especially the section on how our published accounting losses translate into FFP losses, take into account the Collins deal and then you will u detest and how we stayed within the rules. And try and understand the process. Clubs meet the EFL regularly, you don’t just say suddenly your club is going to make a loss. Just because you get a deduction doesn’t reset the clock, you still have to adjust your future spending to meet the targets in future seasons
This would just be more incentive to bring players in on fees now than to chase the most in demand free agents on high wages.
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Post by gaznandi on Jun 29, 2022 15:58:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2022 15:59:28 GMT
Hourihane decent enough still. Could do worse
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Post by cvillestokie on Jun 29, 2022 16:03:02 GMT
I’d imagine he’d be a good signing for them. A wealth of experience to help anchor a club in the mire. Wish Chester good luck for the remainder of his career. He always seemed to take pride in his job.
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Post by andystokey on Jun 29, 2022 16:03:38 GMT
Absolutely spot on and agree from what we have seen from Duhaney and the shocking Fox. I would hate to think if we were on for the plays off and we suffered injuries to our full back first choices. I am sure the management will be aware of the eventuality and recruit better cover? We can’t judge the final squad until the window has closed. Still going to be plenty of comings and going’s I think? The official site is only showing us with 14 outfield senior players and that includes DWP and TOB 🙄 add the 2 new boys and we still need half a dozen. If we let Doughty go without a LWB replacement it makes his original signature and subsequent departure even more baffling. Let's be clear if either Tymon or Clarke get injured with our current players we will be changing formation completely which is mad. Seems like we did need cover after all then
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jun 29, 2022 16:06:05 GMT
Read the Swiss Ramble thread especially the section on how our published accounting losses translate into FFP losses, take into account the Collins deal and then you will u detest and how we stayed within the rules. And try and understand the process. Clubs meet the EFL regularly, you don’t just say suddenly your club is going to make a loss. Just because you get a deduction doesn’t reset the clock, you still have to adjust your future spending to meet the targets in future seasons I'm not sure I want to try to understand how covid made Wimmer and co worthless because imo it's complete and utter bullshit. I'm glad we look to have got away with it but for anyone to look at what's gone on then tell me you shouldn't try to game the system is laughable. That’s why you should read it rather than continually sounding off as you will see the calculation excludes many of the exceptional losses the club went for. The club tried but weren’t able to game the system because there is more scrutiny now. Your fantasy ideas of cheat a little bit just won’t work
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Post by chiswickpotter on Jun 29, 2022 16:09:55 GMT
Read the Swiss Ramble thread especially the section on how our published accounting losses translate into FFP losses, take into account the Collins deal and then you will u detest and how we stayed within the rules. And try and understand the process. Clubs meet the EFL regularly, you don’t just say suddenly your club is going to make a loss. Just because you get a deduction doesn’t reset the clock, you still have to adjust your future spending to meet the targets in future seasons
This would just be more incentive to bring players in on fees now than to chase the most in demand free agents on high wages. No because the system works on forecasts. Several times a season the club has to meet the EFL and present an updated business plan. If Stoke suddenly announced a signing of £20 million, all the metrics would be reset so there would be less money for wages in the coming and subsequent seasons.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Jun 29, 2022 16:19:35 GMT
James Chester to Derby, haven't they suffered enough?
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Post by Ex-term-oat-cake on Jun 29, 2022 17:39:15 GMT
Bit concerned none of our signings are midfielders. So much of our problems under MON stem from lack of a plan and personnel in midfield. Any chance of signing someone to pull the strings?
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Post by gingerninja on Jun 29, 2022 17:41:17 GMT
I would imagine Maja & Sawyer's will complete our summer business.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2022 17:43:03 GMT
I would imagine Maja & Sawyer's will complete our summer business. Could live with that and a keeper
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