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Post by nottsover60 on Mar 14, 2022 10:06:58 GMT
Powell is a good player but he is made of glass and spends 60% of his time injured. Baker looks decent but that is because of Allen not in spite of Allen. Souttar is a different discussion really How is it a different discussion when you've claimed he's 'head and shoulders our best player'? In what way is Baker playing well down to Allen? It's the other way round if anything, Allen's performances have markedly improved since Baker arrived. The way Baker played when Allen was 'rested' against Blackpool is some evidence that they work as a pair complementing each other. Not conclusive as playing Sawyers deep was never going to work and if we wanted to try another partner for Baker it should have been Thompson. But it was by far Baker's worst performance for us.
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Post by masterpotter on Mar 14, 2022 10:14:41 GMT
How is it a different discussion when you've claimed he's 'head and shoulders our best player'? In what way is Baker playing well down to Allen? It's the other way round if anything, Allen's performances have markedly improved since Baker arrived. The way Baker played when Allen was 'rested' against Blackpool is some evidence that they work as a pair complementing each other. Not conclusive as playing Sawyers deep was never going to work and if we wanted to try another partner for Baker it should have been Thompson. But it was by far Baker's worst performance for us. Why on earth are you posting something sensible on here
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Post by wuzza on Mar 14, 2022 10:37:24 GMT
In my book his only ‘crime’ is to do his best to cover the inadequacies of those around him. Sorry I can usually see a thread of reason in most views but the belief that Allen has done anything but good things for this club just leave me shaking my head. You disagree with his own assessments of his performances at various times when he acknowledged he wasn't performing well then? His attempts to cover the inadequacies around him have only compounded the problem. If doing that had helped us, great, but it didn't, it just created more gaps and we lost our shape. He's performed better of late with Baker here, it's just a shame we haven't seen those kind of displays more often. Such assessments suggest a bloke who is both wholehearted and has high standards ( he has after all performed at the very highest levels of the game ) but if you ask have I ever walked away from a game thinking Joe Allen caused the team problems or gave anything less than 100% to the cause then no I haven’t. I have however walked away numerous times thinking thank god Joe was there doing what he did to hold things together. I’m not wanting to elevate him to sainthood but I would like to see some respect and appreciation of a player who has represented this club well and with good character.
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Post by pushon on Mar 14, 2022 10:55:33 GMT
You disagree with his own assessments of his performances at various times when he acknowledged he wasn't performing well then? His attempts to cover the inadequacies around him have only compounded the problem. If doing that had helped us, great, but it didn't, it just created more gaps and we lost our shape. He's performed better of late with Baker here, it's just a shame we haven't seen those kind of displays more often. Such assessments suggest a bloke who is both wholehearted and has high standards ( he has after all performed at the very highest levels of the game ) but if you ask have I ever walked away from a game thinking Joe Allen caused the team problems or gave anything less than 100% to the cause then no I haven’t. I have however walked away numerous times thinking thank god Joe was there doing what he did to hold things together. I’m not wanting to elevate him to sainthood but I would like to see some respect and appreciation of a player who has represented this club well and with good character. Well said wuzza👏
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 14, 2022 11:53:38 GMT
So what does he do that makes him 'head and shoulders our best player'? I loved Whelan, I defended him on here from loads who gave him stick. If Allen had done the job Whelan did at his best we'd be in much better shape. Whelan wasn't our best ever signing. Fuller cost the same as he did. My Point exactly. Whilst I loved ric and still do and be happy for my wife to have his babies, he wasn’t as important to us as glen I mean, he was. We probably don't get promoted without him, we likely don't stay up those first two seasons without him. Glenn struggled for a fair while, really came into his own during the run to the cup final in 10/11 (where he looked like Pirlo compared to Whitehead) and then the first two Hughes seasons.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 14, 2022 11:54:54 GMT
How is it a different discussion when you've claimed he's 'head and shoulders our best player'? In what way is Baker playing well down to Allen? It's the other way round if anything, Allen's performances have markedly improved since Baker arrived. The way Baker played when Allen was 'rested' against Blackpool is some evidence that they work as a pair complementing each other. Not conclusive as playing Sawyers deep was never going to work and if we wanted to try another partner for Baker it should have been Thompson. But it was by far Baker's worst performance for us. As you say, he was hamstrung by Sawyers being played alongside him. He could've done a better job of playing a more disciplined role, but he shouldn't have been asked to. Unfathomable call by MON.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 14, 2022 11:57:19 GMT
You disagree with his own assessments of his performances at various times when he acknowledged he wasn't performing well then? His attempts to cover the inadequacies around him have only compounded the problem. If doing that had helped us, great, but it didn't, it just created more gaps and we lost our shape. He's performed better of late with Baker here, it's just a shame we haven't seen those kind of displays more often. Such assessments suggest a bloke who is both wholehearted and has high standards ( he has after all performed at the very highest levels of the game ) but if you ask have I ever walked away from a game thinking Joe Allen caused the team problems or gave anything less than 100% to the cause then no I haven’t. I have however walked away numerous times thinking thank god Joe was there doing what he did to hold things together. I’m not wanting to elevate him to sainthood but I would like to see some respect and appreciation of a player who has represented this club well and with good character. They're two different things. His effort can't be faulted, no argument there. But it frequently hasn't been channelled into a helpful way. We needed someone disciplined to help us keep shape. He hasn't given us that, by and large. The midfield has been a complete wasteland for years. This again just sounds like reputation + trying hard and running around = free pass.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 14, 2022 12:09:43 GMT
We haven't had a competent midfield in the time he's been here.
That's the top and bottom of it.
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Post by wuzza on Mar 14, 2022 12:14:48 GMT
Such assessments suggest a bloke who is both wholehearted and has high standards ( he has after all performed at the very highest levels of the game ) but if you ask have I ever walked away from a game thinking Joe Allen caused the team problems or gave anything less than 100% to the cause then no I haven’t. I have however walked away numerous times thinking thank god Joe was there doing what he did to hold things together. I’m not wanting to elevate him to sainthood but I would like to see some respect and appreciation of a player who has represented this club well and with good character. They're two different things. His effort can't be faulted, no argument there. But it frequently hasn't been channelled into a helpful way. We needed someone disciplined to help us keep shape. He hasn't given us that, by and large. The midfield has been a complete wasteland for years. This again just sounds like reputation + trying hard and running around = free pass. Is it fair to transfer the failing of the unit as a whole on to his back? Again I would argue if he hadn’t been in their consistently doing his bit it would have been a damn sight worse. I also think he has more ability than people seem to be giving him credit for - he can play and has demonstrated such with a Stoke and Wales shirt on his back. Alan Hudson he is not , in certain aspects Glen Whelan he is not , but as an overall package with, at times, bugger all support , he has been a very good for us.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 14, 2022 12:47:03 GMT
They're two different things. His effort can't be faulted, no argument there. But it frequently hasn't been channelled into a helpful way. We needed someone disciplined to help us keep shape. He hasn't given us that, by and large. The midfield has been a complete wasteland for years. This again just sounds like reputation + trying hard and running around = free pass. Is it fair to transfer the failing of the unit as a whole on to his back? Again I would argue if he hadn’t been in their consistently doing his bit it would have been a damn sight worse. I also think he has more ability than people seem to be giving him credit for - he can play and has demonstrated such with a Stoke and Wales shirt on his back. Alan Hudson he is not , in certain aspects Glen Whelan he is not , but as an overall package with, at times, bugger all support , he has been a very good for us. Again though, I haven't said we're transferring the failings as a whole, I'm saying he's been a significant part of it - that isn't the same thing. What is it that he does well that I'm missing? You seem to be prepared to give him a free pass for the headless chicken stuff on the grounds of 'effort', but are we saying that hasn't been an issue? His recent good performances, for which he's rightly been commended, have come because he's done an understated job keeping things ticking at the base of midfield, but if he'd been doing that all the time he'd been here he wouldn't have had half the stick he has had?
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Post by masterpotter on Mar 14, 2022 12:49:39 GMT
We haven't had a competent midfield in the time he's been here. That's the top and bottom of it. Exactly hence why Allen does two jobs its like pulling teeth arguing on here
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Post by stokie223 on Mar 14, 2022 12:53:19 GMT
I'd love to know what some of the people on here are smoking. Proof, if needed, that a good portion of Stoke fans will forgive almost anything if you run around like an idiot.
He's the epitome of a headless chicken; running around to little avail and leaving gaping holes in our midfield in the process. Positional sense/discipline and passing are both woeful for a CM that's on Premier League wages.
For the most part since he signed there has been no tangible benefit to having him in the team - we just seem to fall in love with people that run around aimlessly. Occasionally it comes in handy that he's scrappy, as you do need someone like that, but he's a top earner in this division and it's inexcusable that he offers little else.
Improved a bit since Baker signed but for the money we're paying him we should be getting a lot more back.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 14, 2022 12:54:30 GMT
We haven't had a competent midfield in the time he's been here. That's the top and bottom of it. Exactly hence why Allen does two jobs its like pulling teeth arguing on here He doesn't do one job generally.
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Post by BuckRogers on Mar 14, 2022 13:03:23 GMT
Hes probably one of the highest earners in this division . For that kind of money I would expect him run & control most of the games in midfield. He's average at best most games. Needs going.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Mar 14, 2022 13:08:52 GMT
My least favourite Stoke player of all time, he makes my blood boil.
Should have been fucked off the second we went down and shouldn’t have even been purchased in the first place.
He can take MON and Chester with him as well.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 14, 2022 18:55:23 GMT
He has formed a good partnership with Baker, he seems to trust Baker and has been more positionaly disciplined as a result He's on insane money but he's not going to get that anywhere now With a huge pay cut would keep At a time when most of the squad will be churned again, as we finally rid ourselves of the biggest of earners, we need some roots and anchors in the team and squad. Allen and Baker is a good place to start, especially if again the centre halves will be changed. We need that physicality in midfield though, at the risk of repeating myself, and the manager needs to add it this summer. I'm so on the fence over Allen. The above post almost put me on the side of 'keep,' but through no fault of his own Allen has come to represent the malaise hanging around the club. I think he's one of our best players - and that Baker makes Allen look better and Allen makes Baker look better. But I dunno. He can still do a job in the Premier League, and I imagine he won't be short of offers.
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Post by jzime on Mar 14, 2022 21:09:59 GMT
Joe Allen signed for a club that finished 9th in the Premier League three years in a row. Jurgen Klopp correctly identified that if he was going to turn Liverpool into a title-challenging side, Henderson was a much better British-born player than Allen to keep hold of, and he got rid to the highest bidder. Obviously not being good enough for Liverpool doesn't make you a bad player, but that's the context in which Allen was told to us.
He never improved the midfield, we got worse every season he was here. After we got relegated, he signed a bumper contract: a move that was celebrated on some imaginary basis that keeping Joe Allen was the key to us winning automatic promotion and restoring our PL status. Since then, we've been lumbered with an extremely well-payed player while we've been a mid-table Championship club. In that time, no Premier League club has come in for him; not one PL club has thought this experienced Wales international was worth a punt.
The nicest and most charitable analysis of the situation is that Joe Allen hasn't been able to elevate a bad group of players beyond midtable mediocrity. The other reading of the situation is that Allen is actually a bad player who is actively holding us back. Either way, it's plainly silly that a club that has to tread very carefully to balance FFP has had an ageing midfielder on Premier League wages on the books for the last few years.
I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not I think he's a truly terrible player, the best player at the club, or somewhere in between. But he's 32, if he was ever going to transform us into a side capable of making the playoffs, he'd have already done it by now. It is time to move on and allocate the wage bill to a younger generation of players.
Frankly, we should have a clean break just because Allen represents the last of the directionless big-money signings we made in our last seasons in the PL and our first two in the Championship. We should put that period behind us.
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Post by HarryTheHat on Mar 14, 2022 21:13:18 GMT
Joe Allen signed for a club that finished 9th in the Premier League three years in a row. Jurgen Klopp correctly identified that if he was going to turn Liverpool into a title-challenging side, Henderson was a much better British-born player than Allen to keep hold of, and he got rid to the highest bidder. Obviously not being good enough for Liverpool doesn't make you a bad player, but that's the context in which Allen was told to us. He never improved the midfield, we got worse every season he was here. After we got relegated, he signed a bumper contract: a move that was celebrated on some imaginary basis that keeping Joe Allen was the key to us winning automatic promotion and restoring our PL status. Since then, we've been lumbered with an extremely well-payed player while we've been a mid-table Championship club. In that time, no Premier League club has come in for him; not one PL club has thought this experienced Wales international was worth a punt. The nicest and most charitable analysis of the situation is that Joe Allen hasn't been able to elevate a bad group of players beyond midtable mediocrity. The other reading of the situation is that Allen is actually a bad player who is actively holding us back. Either way, it's plainly silly that a club that has to tread very carefully to balance FFP has had an ageing midfielder on Premier League wages on the books for the last few years. I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not I think he's a truly terrible player, the best player at the club, or somewhere in between. But he's 32, if he was ever going to transform us into a side capable of making the playoffs, he'd have already done it by now. It is time to move on and allocate the wage bill to a younger generation of players. Frankly, we should have a clean break just because Allen represents the last of the directionless big-money signings we made in our last seasons in the PL and our first two in the Championship. We should put that period behind us. Top post fella
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Post by stokie223 on Mar 15, 2022 9:29:14 GMT
At a time when most of the squad will be churned again, as we finally rid ourselves of the biggest of earners, we need some roots and anchors in the team and squad. Allen and Baker is a good place to start, especially if again the centre halves will be changed. We need that physicality in midfield though, at the risk of repeating myself, and the manager needs to add it this summer. I'm so on the fence over Allen. The above post almost put me on the side of 'keep,' but through no fault of his own Allen has come to represent the malaise hanging around the club. I think he's one of our best players - and that Baker makes Allen look better and Allen makes Baker look better. But I dunno. He can still do a job in the Premier League, and I imagine he won't be short of offers. Which Premier League club would go anywhere near him?!?!?!?! Honestly it truly baffles me that we don't unanimously agree that he's part of the problem, and not part of the solution. He's on Premier League wages and makes no discernible difference to the team, arguably making us worse at times with his positional discipline. Can't tackle, can't pass, doesn't score goals. Other than being a bit niggly at times, what does he do well?! I'm lost. We've got progressively worse since he came in, and whilst that absolutely cannot ALL be laid at his door he's certainly a contributing factor. Gobsmacked that people can't see how easy teams find it to walk through us because of our lack of midfield - and he's been a mainstay of that midfield for years. We could do so, so, so much better (and younger) for the money he's on. No top Championship/Prem team would touch him with a barge pole for c. £55k/wk
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2022 9:44:17 GMT
If we can sign him up on a reduced contract then I say keep him.
If not then the situation will call for him to leave.
Either way, he is a player who has only ever given 100% for this football club whilst being surrounded by countless shithouses, and some of the shit written about him on here has been fucking laughable in the extreme.
I know one thing, when he doesn't play, we miss him. People will have their reasons why this is true, but it is.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 15, 2022 10:26:12 GMT
If we can sign him up on a reduced contract then I say keep him. If not then the situation will call for him to leave. Either way, he is a player who has only ever given 100% for this football club whilst being surrounded by countless shithouses, and some of the shit written about him on here has been fucking laughable in the extreme. I know one thing, when he doesn't play, we miss him. People will have their reasons why this is true, but it is. Did we miss him massively? We showed play-off form in his absence in 2020/21. We were absolutely fine without him last season and his return actually coincided with a downturn in form because him and Mikel was really not a great balance. This season, it's broadly a flip of a coin between him and Thompson.
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Post by stokie223 on Mar 15, 2022 10:44:33 GMT
If we can sign him up on a reduced contract then I say keep him. If not then the situation will call for him to leave. Either way, he is a player who has only ever given 100% for this football club whilst being surrounded by countless shithouses, and some of the shit written about him on here has been fucking laughable in the extreme. I know one thing, when he doesn't play, we miss him. People will have their reasons why this is true, but it is. Did we miss him massively? We showed play-off form in his absence in 2020/21. We were absolutely fine without him last season and his return actually coincided with a downturn in form because him and Mikel was really not a great balance. This season, it's broadly a flip of a coin between him and Thompson. For the money we're paying, he should be a standout player. He isn't. I get that he works hard and for the most part seems to be a model pro, but I can't accept one of the highest earners in the league being celebrated for effort alone. If you put a Labrador on the pitch in a Stoke shirt then it would run around a lot...
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 15, 2022 11:08:41 GMT
I'm so on the fence over Allen. The above post almost put me on the side of 'keep,' but through no fault of his own Allen has come to represent the malaise hanging around the club. I think he's one of our best players - and that Baker makes Allen look better and Allen makes Baker look better. But I dunno. He can still do a job in the Premier League, and I imagine he won't be short of offers. Which Premier League club would go anywhere near him?!?!?!?! Honestly it truly baffles me that we don't unanimously agree that he's part of the problem, and not part of the solution. He's on Premier League wages and makes no discernible difference to the team, arguably making us worse at times with his positional discipline. Can't tackle, can't pass, doesn't score goals. Other than being a bit niggly at times, what does he do well?! I'm lost. We've got progressively worse since he came in, and whilst that absolutely cannot ALL be laid at his door he's certainly a contributing factor. Gobsmacked that people can't see how easy teams find it to walk through us because of our lack of midfield - and he's been a mainstay of that midfield for years. We could do so, so, so much better (and younger) for the money he's on. No top Championship/Prem team would touch him with a barge pole for c. £55k/wk We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Mar 15, 2022 11:30:53 GMT
Souttar, Powell, Baker. Talk me through the attributes that make him 'head and shoulders our best player'? Powell is a good player but he is made of glass and spends 60% of his time injured. Baker looks decent but that is because of Allen not in spite of Allen. Souttar is a different discussion really Nonsense. Powell was available for over 85% of our games in the last two seasons. This year he had had a broken leg that has hampered him but even if he doesn't play again this season he will have been available for 70% of our games over 3 seasons. The 60% number is something you have made up
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Post by stokie223 on Mar 15, 2022 11:32:43 GMT
Which Premier League club would go anywhere near him?!?!?!?! Honestly it truly baffles me that we don't unanimously agree that he's part of the problem, and not part of the solution. He's on Premier League wages and makes no discernible difference to the team, arguably making us worse at times with his positional discipline. Can't tackle, can't pass, doesn't score goals. Other than being a bit niggly at times, what does he do well?! I'm lost. We've got progressively worse since he came in, and whilst that absolutely cannot ALL be laid at his door he's certainly a contributing factor. Gobsmacked that people can't see how easy teams find it to walk through us because of our lack of midfield - and he's been a mainstay of that midfield for years. We could do so, so, so much better (and younger) for the money he's on. No top Championship/Prem team would touch him with a barge pole for c. £55k/wk We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though. I would say that he would still be one of, if not the, biggest earner(s) at the club - so you've got the same problem on a marginally smaller scale... For me, that's apples and oranges. Difference being these players were part of a team which was on a massive upward trajectory. At a time where we dared to dream, plenty of Stoke fans (myself included) perhaps naively thought we could do better than Whelan and Walters because they were the least technical players in our starting 11. N'Zonzi got pelters because he was seen to be lazy - but for me he made the game look easy and is a fantastic player at any level with the right people around him. All of the above actually brought something to the table, and for me Allen doesn't. Even when we have got progressively worse, he still doesn't stand out. I don't think he is a 'very good championship player' at all. I think that's bonkers. He is scrappy as I've said - you do need a bit of that - but there's got to be something more. He doesn't protect the back four at all (his positional play actually puts them in trouble frequently) - and he can't pass. So what's his job other than being scrappy? He hasn't got one. How can that be justified on his wages when we're crippled financially?
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Post by potterpaul on Mar 15, 2022 11:36:03 GMT
Which Premier League club would go anywhere near him?!?!?!?! Honestly it truly baffles me that we don't unanimously agree that he's part of the problem, and not part of the solution. He's on Premier League wages and makes no discernible difference to the team, arguably making us worse at times with his positional discipline. Can't tackle, can't pass, doesn't score goals. Other than being a bit niggly at times, what does he do well?! I'm lost. We've got progressively worse since he came in, and whilst that absolutely cannot ALL be laid at his door he's certainly a contributing factor. Gobsmacked that people can't see how easy teams find it to walk through us because of our lack of midfield - and he's been a mainstay of that midfield for years. We could do so, so, so much better (and younger) for the money he's on. No top Championship/Prem team would touch him with a barge pole for c. £55k/wk We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though. It needs to come down a damn site more than that. Then you'd have to ask would he vigorously run around like his arse is on fire having taken such a cut.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 15, 2022 11:43:24 GMT
Which Premier League club would go anywhere near him?!?!?!?! Honestly it truly baffles me that we don't unanimously agree that he's part of the problem, and not part of the solution. He's on Premier League wages and makes no discernible difference to the team, arguably making us worse at times with his positional discipline. Can't tackle, can't pass, doesn't score goals. Other than being a bit niggly at times, what does he do well?! I'm lost. We've got progressively worse since he came in, and whilst that absolutely cannot ALL be laid at his door he's certainly a contributing factor. Gobsmacked that people can't see how easy teams find it to walk through us because of our lack of midfield - and he's been a mainstay of that midfield for years. We could do so, so, so much better (and younger) for the money he's on. No top Championship/Prem team would touch him with a barge pole for c. £55k/wk We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though. For every N’Zonzi type story (which wasn’t really true, most appeared to love him in his last 18 months), there’s a Dean Whitehead. Joe Allen has serious flaws. 20k a week is still a high earner in the Championship. How many times has he dominated the midfield despite earning more than the 3 other midfielders in the opposition? I can’t remember any/many.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 15, 2022 11:51:55 GMT
We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though. For every N’Zonzi type story (which wasn’t really true, most appeared to love him in his last 18 months), there’s a Dean Whitehead. Joe Allen has serious flaws. 20k a week is still a high earner in the Championship. How many times has he dominated the midfield despite earning more than the 3 other midfielders in the opposition? I can’t remember any/many. Fonz was loathed. Whitehead was shit. What's the story there? He's very much like Allen. Way more liked him than they should have done because he ran around a lot.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 15, 2022 11:52:54 GMT
We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though. For every N’Zonzi type story (which wasn’t really true, most appeared to love him in his last 18 months), there’s a Dean Whitehead. Joe Allen has serious flaws. 20k a week is still a high earner in the Championship. How many times has he dominated the midfield despite earning more than the 3 other midfielders in the opposition? I can’t remember any/many. Allen is very similar to Dean Whitehead in many respects, but much more handsome.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Mar 15, 2022 12:00:35 GMT
We wouldn't re-sign him on £50k a week though would we? There's no chance of that happening. Look back 10 years on this forum and see how much Whelan, N'Zonzi and Walters were slated to take three examples. It's only years after certain players leave the club that they seem to get wider respect for actually doing a good job. Allen puts himself in positions that puts pressure on the opposition, often forcing them into a mistake or winning the ball. Because he so often puts himself in those positions to cover for teammates, it probably seems like he makes a lot of mistakes, but percentage-wise I bet he has a much more positive effect on the team than most around him over the past few years. I'd guess his 50/50 stats are favourable (headers aside). He's a good passer and generally seems to want to move the ball forward. Often I'd put the blame on the players around Allen (due to lack of movement) when he ends up losing the ball. Also don't forget he came back from a season-long injury. He tires at times, but his stamina is very good. I don't think Allen is as good as he was a few years ago, but if his wages came down by £20k or so, then he's a very good Championship player at the least, and a player who I think looks better when the team around him is better. In a team playing well, he could very well be a key player next season. I get the feeling he'll move on though. I would say that he would still be one of, if not the, biggest earner(s) at the club - so you've got the same problem on a marginally smaller scale... For me, that's apples and oranges. Difference being these players were part of a team which was on a massive upward trajectory. At a time where we dared to dream, plenty of Stoke fans (myself included) perhaps naively thought we could do better than Whelan and Walters because they were the least technical players in our starting 11. N'Zonzi got pelters because he was seen to be lazy - but for me he made the game look easy and is a fantastic player at any level with the right people around him. All of the above actually brought something to the table, and for me Allen doesn't. Even when we have got progressively worse, he still doesn't stand out. I don't think he is a 'very good championship player' at all. I think that's bonkers. He is scrappy as I've said - you do need a bit of that - but there's got to be something more. He doesn't protect the back four at all (his positional play actually puts them in trouble frequently) - and he can't pass. So what's his job other than being scrappy? He hasn't got one. How can that be justified on his wages when we're crippled financially? Whelan, Walters etc. continued to be criticised when we weren't on an upward trajectory, although I get your point there and my main reason for Allen leaving would be that he's really all that remains from the decline over the past few years. It would be great to see him in a Stoke promotion-winning side though. For every N’Zonzi type story (which wasn’t really true, most appeared to love him in his last 18 months), there’s a Dean Whitehead. Joe Allen has serious flaws. 20k a week is still a high earner in the Championship. How many times has he dominated the midfield despite earning more than the 3 other midfielders in the opposition? I can’t remember any/many. Nzonzi was also slated for being a mard and handing in transfer requests, but he was still one of our best players the season after he handed in a transfer request. I thought Dean Whitehead was a decent signing for £3m too. And what do you mean by dominating the midfield? You need the players around you to help out if you're going to dominate a midfield as a player. Allen split opinion at Liverpool too, so maybe he's just one of those players.
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