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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 27, 2022 13:38:18 GMT
I'm definitely not blaming the fans, but I think it would help if we (as a collective) were less negative and saw the bigger picture, such as those 7 players with hardly any game time for us in the starting lineup on Tuesday. He wasn't forced to play those seven players though, that just seems like an excuse? Yes some of them will take time to gel but the problems have been with the players who have been playing regularly - Chester, Clucas etc? He hasn't had much choice though? Chester vs Fox - what is there in it? Clucas had a good spell with us that included opposition he hasn't previously played for - does he need a run in the team to recapture that? And given our injuries, has there been another regular option? We didn't seem to do any better without Allen on Tuesday, as many claimed we would. Campbell not upfront - is he a better option than Brown (or Wright-Phillips) at the moment? And we've got games coming thick and fast, so some players will be rotated more than others. I don't know why Doughty was missing from the bench. He should have had much more game time this season IMO. I can't see what other positions are controversial choices?
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 27, 2022 13:46:59 GMT
We're talking MON here though not Lambert or Jones who showed in their first 20 matches which way they were taking us. I think Rowett is the only one other than MON you can apply the Mowbray model to but he lost the fans early. So far apart from avoiding relegation in his first season MON has followed a similar projector to Mowbray - clear out, consolidate while changing style of play, develop young players, don't panic etc but he is two years behind Mowbray so give him time. Can't agree about Rowett, he's an imbecile and an architect of our current situation. Fair point in that MON has shown more than previous managers and I agree it's not time to sack him. Equally you seem to be giving him a free pass on the myriad things he's got and is getting wrong and those need to be part of the conversation too. I agree MON has made mistakes but so does every manager at times especially at the level we are. Whose to say that if we sacked MON the next manager would make less mistakes. Look at Ismael and what he did at Barnsley. It looked like he was an excellent appointment for WBA but not only does he look like missing automatic promotion but might not even make the play offs.
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Post by thevoid on Jan 27, 2022 13:51:29 GMT
I meant at the end of the season if we are not in the top 6 then we should part company What if we play brilliantly between now and then? And lose out on goal difference? Despite having loads more injuries? And the roof blows off the Boothen? Still sack him then? No, but I'll have a bet with you that none of those scenarios play out if you want?
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Post by GoBoks on Jan 27, 2022 13:52:32 GMT
Thank heavens! Fortunately our owners have got their heads on right and O'Neill won't be leaving Stoke anytime soon. Got their heads on right, have you been in a coma for the last six years? These are the people who kept Hughes in a job for too long and then appointed Lambert. They nearly oversaw two relegations in three seasons and have presided over six years of decline- well run clubs don't do that. Our current state is all on them. Once the crowd turns, the manager is usually sacrificed and I just get the feeling we're heading down that road. It's close to getting toxic Absolutely agree that our current state is all on them. If it were not for them, we'd still be competing with Port Vale! Football is a matter of cycles. Stoke has won 1 trophy in more than 150 years of trying. We have spent about half of our existence in a division below the top tier. Due to our owners, we enjoyed a decade in the Prem (something I thought I would not see in my lifetime) and then fell back into the cycle of bust/boom. Bigger teams than us have seen the same thing. Teams with top tier titles, FA Cups and even European Champions titles have regularly been beneath us. Sunderland, Derby, Forest, West Ham, Leeds, Wolves, etc, etc, etc. Now that we're improving and moving back towards a boom time, you'd like to throw out everyone who has turned the ship around? Crazy!
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2022 13:54:14 GMT
He wasn't forced to play those seven players though, that just seems like an excuse? Yes some of them will take time to gel but the problems have been with the players who have been playing regularly - Chester, Clucas etc? He hasn't had much choice though? Chester vs Fox - what is there in it? Clucas had a good spell with us that included opposition he hasn't previously played for - does he need a run in the team to recapture that? And given our injuries, has there been another regular option? We didn't seem to do any better without Allen on Tuesday, as many claimed we would. Campbell not upfront - is he a better option than Brown (or Wright-Phillips) at the moment? And we've got games coming thick and fast, so some players will be rotated more than others. I don't know why Doughty was missing from the bench. He should have had much more game time this season IMO. I can't see what other positions are controversial choices? Chester is in absolutely abject form, Fox isn't great but surely when a player is that badly out of form you take him out of the firing line? When was this Clucas run of form? 2020? Allen made more sense to play away from home than he did against reasonable opposition, for all his faults at least he doesn't hide.
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Post by thevoid on Jan 27, 2022 13:54:18 GMT
Can't agree about Rowett, he's an imbecile and an architect of our current situation. Fair point in that MON has shown more than previous managers and I agree it's not time to sack him. Equally you seem to be giving him a free pass on the myriad things he's got and is getting wrong and those need to be part of the conversation too. I agree MON has made mistakes but so does every manager at times especially at the level we are. Whose to say that if we sacked MON the next manager would make less mistakes. Look at Ismael and what he did at Barnsley. It looked like he was an excellent appointment for WBA but not only does he look like missing automatic promotion but might not even make the play offs. Do you enjoy supporting a team who practically never gain any points once they've gone behind in a match?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2022 13:55:25 GMT
Can't agree about Rowett, he's an imbecile and an architect of our current situation. Fair point in that MON has shown more than previous managers and I agree it's not time to sack him. Equally you seem to be giving him a free pass on the myriad things he's got and is getting wrong and those need to be part of the conversation too. I agree MON has made mistakes but so does every manager at times especially at the level we are. Whose to say that if we sacked MON the next manager would make less mistakes. Look at Ismael and what he did at Barnsley. It looked like he was an excellent appointment for WBA but not only does he look like missing automatic promotion but might not even make the play offs. All managers make them but when they continue to make the same ones and don't learn from them that's a different issue and a red flag. Your point about the next manager being worse is a fair one and the overwhelming argument for keeping him at the moment.
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Post by thevoid on Jan 27, 2022 13:57:09 GMT
Got their heads on right, have you been in a coma for the last six years? These are the people who kept Hughes in a job for too long and then appointed Lambert. They nearly oversaw two relegations in three seasons and have presided over six years of decline- well run clubs don't do that. Our current state is all on them. Once the crowd turns, the manager is usually sacrificed and I just get the feeling we're heading down that road. It's close to getting toxic Absolutely agree that our current state is all on them. If it were not for them, we'd still be competing with Port Vale! Football is a matter of cycles. Stoke has won 1 trophy in more than 150 years of trying. We have spent about half of our existence in a division below the top tier. Due to our owners, we enjoyed a decade in the Prem (something I thought I would not see in my lifetime) and then fell back into the cycle of bust/boom. Bigger teams than us have seen the same thing. Teams with top tier titles, FA Cups and even European Champions titles have regularly been beneath us. Sunderland, Derby, Forest, West Ham, Leeds, Wolves, etc, etc, etc. Now that we're improving and moving back towards a boom time, you'd like to throw out everyone who has turned the ship around? Crazy! 'If it were not for them, we'd still be competing with Port Vale!' Not sure how you come to that conclusion seeing as the Fail currently inhabit a division we've yet to play in. Interesting airbrushing of the Icelandic era from the Stoke history books there too. They saved the club from a possible spell in the fourth tier under Coates.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 27, 2022 14:05:29 GMT
This is the second successive season that seems to have fallen apart after a promising start. He doesn't seem to have any answers when we go into a tailspin. I'm not saying he can't come good but surely we need to see something meaningful in the next 4 months to justify the faith 20/21 after the Cardiff defeat and Campbell injury21/22 after WBA win and Powell injury
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 27, 2022 14:05:46 GMT
Is he or has been forced to? I guess but the quality is questionable? We've paid money for 1 player I think is ok. We've then spent about 5m on tripe. We have that threat but you wouldn't know it. We have a massive squad - he should do. He doesn't panic but he's so reactive in game and needs to be way more proactive. He does seem sensible and that is nice after the last two and I actually want him to do well but I just don't trust him to be better than this presently. And we need to be. He doesn’t strike me as the kind of bloke who would be forced to do anything he doesn’t want to. Personally I think it’s refreshing to see so many young players involved and I think he deserves credit for that. In relation to injuries I don’t think the size of squad is particularly relevant. We’ve been missing our best striker for a long time. He’s back but I doubt he’ll be back to his best until next season. Similarly we lost our best central defender. Arguably the best in the league. Throw in the injury problems of our most important creative player and injury/form problems with our jeepers and I think it’s hard to simply say “we have a big squad, we should be fine’. I think he's been a lot meeker than I expected tbh and I think has been pigeon holed into it. I still don't think we're using as many as we should, when we should and I still think there's been some oddities around it. Credit re Campbell definitely. The rest I think is pushing it. You can get on with it and have the squad to cope, which we have. And then on top of that he's been backed even more.
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Post by GoBoks on Jan 27, 2022 14:08:18 GMT
Absolutely agree that our current state is all on them. If it were not for them, we'd still be competing with Port Vale! Football is a matter of cycles. Stoke has won 1 trophy in more than 150 years of trying. We have spent about half of our existence in a division below the top tier. Due to our owners, we enjoyed a decade in the Prem (something I thought I would not see in my lifetime) and then fell back into the cycle of bust/boom. Bigger teams than us have seen the same thing. Teams with top tier titles, FA Cups and even European Champions titles have regularly been beneath us. Sunderland, Derby, Forest, West Ham, Leeds, Wolves, etc, etc, etc. Now that we're improving and moving back towards a boom time, you'd like to throw out everyone who has turned the ship around? Crazy! 'If it were not for them, we'd still be competing with Port Vale!' Not sure how you come to that conclusion seeing as the Fail currently inhabit a division we've yet to play in. Interesting revisionism of the Icelandic era there too. They saved the club from a possible spell in the fourth tier under Coates. OK! Hello Gunnar! You may note that I did not mention the Icelandic consortium and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that had Coates not taken over when he did, the then cash strapped consortium could have overseen a slide back down the table. For the record, I was vehemently against Coates & Pulis coming back given their past history - and delighted to be proven wrong! Just as the Icelandic consortium saved us from a slide further into mediocrity, Coates Mark 2 drove us to a decade in the Prem and an FA Cup final. Something that was almost unthinkable during the final throes of the Icelandic stewardship. Back to your original statement .... Our current position is definitely thanks to our owners.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2022 14:10:09 GMT
One thing is for sure, we already have the winner of the most ridiculous thread of the year.
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Post by GoBoks on Jan 27, 2022 14:15:48 GMT
This is the second successive season that seems to have fallen apart after a promising start. He doesn't seem to have any answers when we go into a tailspin. I'm not saying he can't come good but surely we need to see something meaningful in the next 4 months to justify the faith 20/21 after the Cardiff defeat and Campbell injury21/22 after WBA win and Powell injuryWOW! Just WOW! You post a table showing us in 19th spot when we are currently in 11th? Couldn't that be used to show how well MON has done to haul us up from a bad position to where we currently are with an outside chance of playoffs? With all due respect, anyone can pick out the absolute worst statistic and make a whip to beat someone with it. Reminds me of when people were saying we'd been a gazillion games without scoring 4 goals in a game and were the worst in the entire pyramid. 3 weeks later when we'd done it a couple of times and were now among the best in the pyramid, not a single proponent of that statistic would acknowledge that it was a benchmark of progress. How about we just support the team. We're 11th. We're still in with a slim chance of making the playoffs. GO STOKE!
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 27, 2022 14:29:45 GMT
'If it were not for them, we'd still be competing with Port Vale!' Not sure how you come to that conclusion seeing as the Fail currently inhabit a division we've yet to play in. Interesting revisionism of the Icelandic era there too. They saved the club from a possible spell in the fourth tier under Coates. OK! Hello Gunnar! You may note that I did not mention the Icelandic consortium and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that had Coates not taken over when he did, the then cash strapped consortium could have overseen a slide back down the table. For the record, I was vehemently against Coates & Pulis coming back given their past history - and delighted to be proven wrong! Just as the Icelandic consortium saved us from a slide further into mediocrity, Coates Mark 2 drove us to a decade in the Prem and an FA Cup final. Something that was almost unthinkable during the final throes of the Icelandic stewardship. Back to your original statement .... Our current position is definitely thanks to our owners.Ain't that the truth. Treading water in the Championship...
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Post by wakeypotter on Jan 27, 2022 14:34:11 GMT
You’ve no argument though have you. I’m not saying O’Neil should be sacked just Bruce is better (proven) Is Bruce proven to be better though? Everywhere O'Neill has been, he's left his team in a better position when he left. I could leave shamrock and Brechin in a better position I mean that’s laughable where he’s managed before and people slate Bruce 😂
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Post by foxysgloves on Jan 27, 2022 14:34:15 GMT
This is the second successive season that seems to have fallen apart after a promising start. He doesn't seem to have any answers when we go into a tailspin. I'm not saying he can't come good but surely we need to see something meaningful in the next 4 months to justify the faith 20/21 after the Cardiff defeat and Campbell injury21/22 after WBA win and Powell injuryI think Souttar’s injury is more significant than either the injury to Campbell or Powell. Season defining unfortunately. Literally the last player we wanted injury gone for the remainder of the season.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jan 27, 2022 14:35:23 GMT
This is the second successive season that seems to have fallen apart after a promising start. He doesn't seem to have any answers when we go into a tailspin. I'm not saying he can't come good but surely we need to see something meaningful in the next 4 months to justify the faith 20/21 after the Cardiff defeat and Campbell injury21/22 after WBA win and Powell injuryI think Souttar’s injury is more significant than either the injury to Campbell or Powell. Season defining unfortunately. Literally the last player we wanted injury gone for the remainder of the season. Totally agree and was just about to post the same
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Post by nottsover60 on Jan 27, 2022 14:37:17 GMT
I agree MON has made mistakes but so does every manager at times especially at the level we are. Whose to say that if we sacked MON the next manager would make less mistakes. Look at Ismael and what he did at Barnsley. It looked like he was an excellent appointment for WBA but not only does he look like missing automatic promotion but might not even make the play offs. Do you enjoy supporting a team who practically never gain any points once they've gone behind in a match? No I have agreed things have to improve. Nor do I like waiting until the 60+minute to make changes when it's obvious that the opposition have us sussed. Neither do I like the passing backwards and across the back but I do like that we try not to just lump it and we do try to play along the ground (As a side point I do wonder how much the rugby pitch hindered that sort of game on Tuesday). Also I do like that he gives youth players a chance and not just in cup games which is a huge plus to me. So many people would have dropped DWP for the big Fulham game. Being picked for that must have been a great vote of confidence for him but didn't come without risks for MON. I like that if a player or team do well he rewards them next match by sticking with them even if what he would consider his better players are available He also drops players who don't perform to the best of their ability if someone else is more deserving. I also like the fact that he does not overreact to defeat or victory but keeps his eye on the long term never denying that he will have failed if we don't get promotion on his watch.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 27, 2022 14:38:42 GMT
Yeah, I'd agree re Souttar.
But the season shouldn't completely disintegrate on the back of it - certainly not when you're backed to bring in Jagielka and one of the more promising defenders in the country as a replacement
I'd hope to see top 10 form for the rest of the season - not necessarily play-offs. But I want to see that MON is worth persevering with.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 27, 2022 14:39:02 GMT
He hasn't had much choice though? Chester vs Fox - what is there in it? Clucas had a good spell with us that included opposition he hasn't previously played for - does he need a run in the team to recapture that? And given our injuries, has there been another regular option? We didn't seem to do any better without Allen on Tuesday, as many claimed we would. Campbell not upfront - is he a better option than Brown (or Wright-Phillips) at the moment? And we've got games coming thick and fast, so some players will be rotated more than others. I don't know why Doughty was missing from the bench. He should have had much more game time this season IMO. I can't see what other positions are controversial choices? Chester is in absolutely abject form, Fox isn't great but surely when a player is that badly out of form you take him out of the firing line? When was this Clucas run of form? 2020? Allen made more sense to play away from home than he did against reasonable opposition, for all his faults at least he doesn't hide. Fair point on Chester, although I'll maintain we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and sometimes it's playing that turns a player's form around. How long the manager persists with a player in bad form whose mistakes are costly is another matter. But I don't think Chester would be near starting if we didn't have so many injuries and didn't have to get rid of Batth. Didn't Clucas come runner up in our player of the season the year O'Neill joined? Admittedly there wasn't all that much to choose from and that was probably based on his goals more than anything else, but I remember thinking he had a spell where he was more hit than miss, and even when he played poorly he popped up with a goal or at least looked like he might score. I considered him an important player for us before injury and/or COVID hit.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jan 27, 2022 14:40:34 GMT
Yeah, I'd agree re Souttar. But the season shouldn't completely disintegrate on the back of it - certainly not when you're backed to bring in Jagielka and one of the more promising defenders in the country as a replacement I'd hope to see top 10 form for the rest of the season - not necessarily play-offs. But I want to see that MON is worth persevering with. To be fair the two defenders you mention are barely in the door.
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Post by a on Jan 27, 2022 14:41:14 GMT
At least spell his name right👀 They’re - They are Their - Belonging to There - Everything else I wish they would teach this in schools 😉 Sorry that’s mean but it irks me. Same as too and to.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 27, 2022 14:42:13 GMT
The lack of respect for a bloke that’s worked his knackers off to stabilise this club since coming here is disgraceful.Yes we’re having a bad run but we’ll come out of it and yet again numerous posters will made to look pathetic Its the terroitory hes paid £1.5 m a year for her did a great Red Adair job two years ago but the evidence is categorical we have not moved forward to anything like the level required to even make the play offs He had a mid table 55 point tem two years ago and has one now ,his recruitment has been poor not a single loan has made a difference , his better players were here when he arrived and his peer group like Wilder and Cooper are showing the it takes time to make a difference ids the tag line of mediocrity . His appointment as a saviour was fine but the huge gaps in his CV were as stated at the time were 1 No evidence of domestic promotion campaign 2 Critically no evidence of managing a UK transfer window Both of these pretty critical in our objectives now its possible to lean on other enormous successes see Gerrard but there isnt much evidence to support success with the other international teams is a good pedigree Coleman and Clarke good of examples of the benchmark is higher in the championship where they both struggled despite success in the international arena Benji, you're only telling half a tale there. The horrendous run of injuries we've had have played a massive part in our situation, as have the ridiculous fees and wages paid to former players that he's had to try and get rid of. He's been like a man tied with his hands behind his back. FFP has created havoc with our ability to really upgrade to much better players too. Being a decent former international manager doesn't automatically say he'll be a decent club manager, but considering where he's taken us from - certain relegation to a season where we won't go down - is he not allowed time to learn his club management trade too? Unlike our previous manager, I've never heard him say he knows it all. Then add onto his CV the fact that he's brought through more youngsters than anyone for many years. I understand why supporters get angry. They're no different than me when we turn out crap performances. But unlike many others, even though after each bad game I want to kick the cat through the window, on reflection I like to take a holistic view on things. For me, he's got until the end of next season before I really make a judgement on his ability to become a really decent club manager, but if during that time we become mired in a relegation battle, then I'd take the chance to find someone else. OS.
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Post by theonlooker on Jan 27, 2022 14:43:25 GMT
Yeah, I'd agree re Souttar. But the season shouldn't completely disintegrate on the back of it - certainly not when you're backed to bring in Jagielka and one of the more promising defenders in the country as a replacement I'd hope to see top 10 form for the rest of the season - not necessarily play-offs. But I want to see that MON is worth persevering with. What you're saying is perfectly reasonable and sensible. You absolutely have to look beyond the immediate detail and dig down into the not so obvious traits. If you can't get promotion, and only three teams can each season, you have to see improvement and all we've seen for the last two seasons (this season so far) is a man that just can't cope or deal with disappointment. The best case scenario is we go on a great run and sneak 6th place or at worst 7th or 8th and we bounce into the summer with renewed hope, ready for a strip and rebuild. Another bottom half finish would be exceptionally disappointing, borderline disastrous for the entire project. I'm just absolutely desperate that he turns it around. I really couldn't cope with another manager turnaround in reality.
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Post by 19notbeaten72 on Jan 27, 2022 14:44:27 GMT
Friday is a big game for the manager. Can he motivate the players for this one? Motivate does he know the meaning of the word from watching him on the touchline i think not. Compared to other managers he is very quiet & rarely shows any emotion or encouragement to the players.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 27, 2022 14:44:47 GMT
Yeah, I'd agree re Souttar. But the season shouldn't completely disintegrate on the back of it - certainly not when you're backed to bring in Jagielka and one of the more promising defenders in the country as a replacement I'd hope to see top 10 form for the rest of the season - not necessarily play-offs. But I want to see that MON is worth persevering with. To be fair the two defenders you mention are barely in the door. True - which is why you'd hope to see the form uptick kick in now. It's all relative - but I don't think anyone could knock the backing he's had and the personnel he's now got to choose from, which should have been directed at his chosen style and approach (although quite why we were still trying to play the slow, patient, playing-from-the-back style with Batth in the team is anyone's guess)
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 27, 2022 14:47:59 GMT
Is Bruce proven to be better though? Everywhere O'Neill has been, he's left his team in a better position when he left. I could leave shamrock and Brechin in a better position I mean that’s laughable where he’s managed before and people slate Bruce 😂 Why don't you try? Brechin have dropped into non-league I think, so you'd probably be a shoo-in for the job. Was it laughable where Potter had managed before when Swansea took him on?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 27, 2022 14:54:54 GMT
Chester is in absolutely abject form, Fox isn't great but surely when a player is that badly out of form you take him out of the firing line? When was this Clucas run of form? 2020? Allen made more sense to play away from home than he did against reasonable opposition, for all his faults at least he doesn't hide. Fair point on Chester, although I'll maintain we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and sometimes it's playing that turns a player's form around. How long the manager persists with a player in bad form whose mistakes are costly is another matter. But I don't think Chester would be near starting if we didn't have so many injuries and didn't have to get rid of Batth. Didn't Clucas come runner up in our player of the season the year O'Neill joined? Admittedly there wasn't all that much to choose from and that was probably based on his goals more than anything else, but I remember thinking he had a spell where he was more hit than miss, and even when he played poorly he popped up with a goal or at least looked like he might score. I considered him an important player for us before injury and/or COVID hit. Yeah which was 2020, so two years ago! We can't carry passengers and we have the options that meant his hand wasn't forced. Again if we win he gets the credit, he can't (and I don't think he'd want to) shirk the blame for decisions that cost us.
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Post by march4 on Jan 27, 2022 14:58:57 GMT
This is the second successive season that seems to have fallen apart after a promising start. He doesn't seem to have any answers when we go into a tailspin. I'm not saying he can't come good but surely we need to see something meaningful in the next 4 months to justify the faith 20/21 after the Cardiff defeat and Campbell injury21/22 after WBA win and Powell injuryThat is 46 games worth. Pretty much a whole season equivalent.
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Post by klingon on Jan 27, 2022 15:05:55 GMT
I agree MON has made mistakes but so does every manager at times especially at the level we are. Whose to say that if we sacked MON the next manager would make less mistakes. Look at Ismael and what he did at Barnsley. It looked like he was an excellent appointment for WBA but not only does he look like missing automatic promotion but might not even make the play offs. Do you enjoy supporting a team who practically never gain any points once they've gone behind in a match? Yes! It does the trick when adding itching powder to my hair shirt, blocking holes in my gimp mask, and tightening the barbed wire around my scrotum doesn't quite achieve the effect I'm seeking.
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