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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 13:51:35 GMT
I don't see it as an excuse, just an irrelevence in the greater scheme of things. We would more than likely recoup all of that on Brown alone. One year taken in isolation can be misleading. Teams are usually built over several seasons. Luton have been living within their means, we have not. Luckily our owners recently wrote off 160 million worth of debt for us and I think we still owe 90 million. Some of that debt still impinges on our FFP figures. So at least in that respect Luton are in a better FFP position than us even tho' we have a greater income. More than likely MON will leave Stoke in June '23. He will leave the club in much better shape than he found it. If all our future managers can say the same then we will be alright. You keep missing or ignoring the point though. With or without FFP, we are still able to spend more than them? It's a case of using the resources - which still appear to be substantial for this league - better rather than the sob story about our limitations. True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. You build football teams. Some managers can glue a side together quickly with a few additions but generally they have a reasonable foundation to begin with. I think we probably had that foundation, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to keep it together.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 13:55:35 GMT
You keep missing or ignoring the point though. With or without FFP, we are still able to spend more than them? It's a case of using the resources - which still appear to be substantial for this league - better rather than the sob story about our limitations. True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. Come on, this is just excuse after excuse now. Huddersfield signed seven free transfers in the summer. He has been here for three years now and been allowed to spend some money and bring in plenty of players in that time. If the team isn't 'settled' then it's in part because we haven't got our recruitment right in that time.
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Post by willieeetmiout on May 12, 2022 13:56:49 GMT
You keep missing or ignoring the point though. With or without FFP, we are still able to spend more than them? It's a case of using the resources - which still appear to be substantial for this league - better rather than the sob story about our limitations. True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. You build football teams. Some managers can glue a side together quickly with a few additions but generally they have a reasonable foundation to begin with. I think we probably had that foundation, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to keep it together. You think we have spent 4millon? On transfer fees, agents fees, loan fees and wages? Dream on dreamer
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 12, 2022 14:04:37 GMT
You keep missing or ignoring the point though. With or without FFP, we are still able to spend more than them? It's a case of using the resources - which still appear to be substantial for this league - better rather than the sob story about our limitations. True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. You build football teams. Some managers can glue a side together quickly with a few additions but generally they have a reasonable foundation to begin with. I think we probably had that foundation, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to keep it together. 4m? Brown was 2.something million Surridge was 2.something million Wilmot was 2.something million Doughty was about 750k Thompson 4/500k? My guesstimate of 6m was under par for sure. That's closer to 8
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 14:19:32 GMT
True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. You build football teams. Some managers can glue a side together quickly with a few additions but generally they have a reasonable foundation to begin with. I think we probably had that foundation, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to keep it together. 4m? Brown was 2.something million Surridge was 2.something million Wilmot was 2.something million Doughty was about 750k Thompson 4/500k? My guesstimate of 6m was under par for sure. That's closer to 8 Blame TA, he was the one who mentioned 4 million
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 14:22:15 GMT
True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. Come on, this is just excuse after excuse now. Huddersfield signed seven free transfers in the summer. He has been here for three years now and been allowed to spend some money and bring in plenty of players in that time. If the team isn't 'settled' then it's in part because we haven't got our recruitment right in that time. Who else has done as well after signing 7 new players on frees? Surely you realise that that was exceptional.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 14:39:38 GMT
4m? Brown was 2.something million Surridge was 2.something million Wilmot was 2.something million Doughty was about 750k Thompson 4/500k? My guesstimate of 6m was under par for sure. That's closer to 8 Blame TA, he was the one who mentioned 4 million I was being generous and basing it purely on this season and the fees for Wilmot and Surridge, not taking into account loan fees etc.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 14:47:18 GMT
Come on, this is just excuse after excuse now. Huddersfield signed seven free transfers in the summer. He has been here for three years now and been allowed to spend some money and bring in plenty of players in that time. If the team isn't 'settled' then it's in part because we haven't got our recruitment right in that time. Who else has done as well after signing 7 new players on frees? Surely you realise that that was exceptional. It's the extreme example, sure, but there are plenty of clubs who spent a fraction of what we did who were much more successful. Lord knows I can't abide Gary Rowett but even he made a better fist of Millwall's business than we did, they paid one permanent transfer fee, the rest of their signings were freebies and loans. Luton made nominal fees or no fee at all for their signings.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 14:54:37 GMT
Blame TA, he was the one who mentioned 4 million I was being generous and basing it purely on this season and the fees for Wilmot and Surridge, not taking into account loan fees etc. Admit it, You were just being kind. Look it's a results business and for whatever reasons the results and style of play haven't been acceptable. Just as it is easy to give reasons in mitigation it is even more easy to make simplistic assertions that it is all down to his deficiencies. A new manager will have a better starting point than MON had but if he fails to deliver, don't worry there is always another even better option available.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 15:00:04 GMT
I was being generous and basing it purely on this season and the fees for Wilmot and Surridge, not taking into account loan fees etc. Admit it, You were just being kind. Look it's a results business and for whatever reasons the results and style of play haven't been acceptable. Just as it is easy to give reasons in mitigation it is even more easy to make simplistic assertions that it is all down to his deficiencies. A new manager will have a better starting point than MON had but if he fails to deliver, don't worry there is always another even better option available. I've never once said it's all down to the manager. The structure of the club makes it tough for any manager, the injuries have undeniably been a factor to a degree. The idea he's blameless or somehow has one arm tied behind his back really doesn't wash though, and his defenders are conspicuous by their absence on the 'rate MON this season' thread.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 15:03:41 GMT
Who else has done as well after signing 7 new players on frees? Surely you realise that that was exceptional. It's the extreme example, sure, but there are plenty of clubs who spent a fraction of what we did who were much more successful. Lord knows I can't abide Gary Rowett but even he made a better fist of Millwall's business than we did, they paid one permanent transfer fee, the rest of their signings were freebies and loans. Luton made nominal fees or no fee at all for their signings. And Middlesbrough spent 10 times as much as Millwall and finished 1 point ahead of them. Does that mean that Rowett is a better manager than Wilder? This is just rubbish. I'll take my leave of you. Your previous post was on the money.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 15:30:47 GMT
It's the extreme example, sure, but there are plenty of clubs who spent a fraction of what we did who were much more successful. Lord knows I can't abide Gary Rowett but even he made a better fist of Millwall's business than we did, they paid one permanent transfer fee, the rest of their signings were freebies and loans. Luton made nominal fees or no fee at all for their signings. And Middlesbrough spent 10 times as much as Millwall and finished 1 point ahead of them. Does that mean that Rowett is a better manager than Wilder? This is just rubbish. I'll take my leave of you. Your previous post was on the money. Well hang on, you were the one talking about exceptions and asking for other examples? Most of Boro's money was spent by Warnock wasn't it?
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Post by jokker on May 12, 2022 15:43:52 GMT
On what grounds do you reach your stupid judgment? I'm no more happy with what we're seeing than you are. But the simple fact, which you and a bunch of others seem incapable of understanding, is that there are only three people who make decisions about the manager, and they've decided to back him. No amount of repetitive messages in this thread by your lot is going to change that. So move on! Has there been a "we back the manager for another season" statement from the club then ???? It's not necessary.
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Post by jokker on May 12, 2022 15:46:21 GMT
On what grounds do you reach your stupid judgment? I'm no more happy with what we're seeing than you are. But the simple fact, which you and a bunch of others seem incapable of understanding, is that there are only three people who make decisions about the manager, and they've decided to back him. No amount of repetitive messages in this thread by your lot is going to change that. So move on! Why call Deesides legitimate comments that 'stupid judgement' ? - the points being made are consistent with that of a large number of supporters All managers ultimately live or die based on results and performances and as to whether they are backed by the supporters or not and MON is no different. He may well survive the Summer but the writings on the wall that if things dont improve he is gone. Like Deeside I have seen nothing to think that they will and that we are just postponing the inevitable. Either way he (and I) are entitled to our opinions without someone like you trying to shut that down When somebody makes a completely false assumption about another person's alleged point of view and then goes on to present it as fact, then there's a very good chance that that is stupid.
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Post by heworksardtho on May 12, 2022 15:54:47 GMT
He needs backing into a corner with a large Dunce hat on , because his Stoke report this season and last would read , very poor D And what would your report card say..? Bored stiff and depressed with the shit ONeill has served up this season and last
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Post by jokker on May 12, 2022 16:01:26 GMT
And what would your report card say..? Bored stiff and depressed with the shit ONeill has served up this season and last You are what you eat...
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Post by jokker on May 12, 2022 16:48:03 GMT
On what grounds do you reach your stupid judgment? I'm no more happy with what we're seeing than you are. But the simple fact, which you and a bunch of others seem incapable of understanding, is that there are only three people who make decisions about the manager, and they've decided to back him. No amount of repetitive messages in this thread by your lot is going to change that. So move on! Why call Deesides legitimate comments that 'stupid judgement' ? - the points being made are consistent with that of a large number of supporters All managers ultimately live or die based on results and performances and as to whether they are backed by the supporters or not and MON is no different. He may well survive the Summer but the writings on the wall that if things dont improve he is gone. Like Deeside I have seen nothing to think that they will and that we are just postponing the inevitable. Either way he (and I) are entitled to our opinions without someone like you trying to shut that down I've belatedly realised that you are accusing me of calling supporters stance on O'Neill stupid. I've done nothing of the sort! Unfortunately you chose to focus on one word instead of reading the whole context. Deeside attributed "You obviously seem quite happy to accept "inconsistent results and lacklustre, dour, boring football" as well as his baffling team selections and "tactics", and his plethora of excuses." to me. Since I am not in the slightest happy with the past season or any of those things quoted, I got upset and expressed that. We've got a thread of more than 200 pages and for the last 199+ pages it's gone nowhere. The manager destractors won't get their wish fulfilled and those that try to look at from another point of view are unable to do so, because any attempt to talk about next season is quickly "shot dowwn" by those obsessed with our season of "failure", if that's what it is. It is time to move on. But I'll make you a promise: except to clarify previous statements or comments from other people on them, I will not participate in this thread anymore.
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Post by Sfance on May 12, 2022 16:59:05 GMT
Finally, some good news.
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Post by heworksardtho on May 12, 2022 17:16:54 GMT
Bored stiff and depressed with the shit ONeill has served up this season and last You are what you eat... Yes shit football————
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Post by mrcoke on May 12, 2022 17:38:12 GMT
Every successful manager at every club makes an immediate improvement which is sustained within 6 months and then achieves success within 2 seasons. There are no examples of managers at a club for over 2 years before achieving a notable improvement in the club and subsequent success. (Most clubs sack them long before.) There are debates on here about players but for me the more important issue is teamwork. MON has had 45 or more players to work with and at no time created a successful team that has gone on a run of victories. Occasionally we have strung 3 or 4 wins or clean sheets together but it quickly fizzled out. The performance this last half of the season has been no better than the performance MON achieved in his first season taking over Jones squad of players. The only complement I can pay is he achieved more with those players than Jones. This season Jones has outshone MON with a weaker squad of players. I can almost set the time on my watch after 70 minutes its time for Fletcher (last season Vokes) to come on.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 12, 2022 18:37:17 GMT
Every successful manager at every club makes an immediate improvement which is sustained within 6 months and then achieves success within 2 seasons. There are no examples of managers at a club for over 2 years before achieving a notable improvement in the club and subsequent success. (Most clubs sack them long before.) There are debates on here about players but for me the more important issue is teamwork. MON has had 45 or more players to work with and at no time created a successful team that has gone on a run of victories. Occasionally we have strung 3 or 4 wins or clean sheets together but it quickly fizzled out. The performance this last half of the season has been no better than the performance MON achieved in his first season taking over Jones squad of players. The only complement I can pay is he achieved more with those players than Jones. This season Jones has outshone MON with a weaker squad of players. I can almost set the time on my watch after 70 minutes its time for Fletcher (last season Vokes) to come on. Spot on management by numbers. He achieved more in his first half season because the alternative was relegation. Once he’s not staring down the barrel a draw wouldn’t be the end of the world. Shit mentality that will never get promotion.
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Post by kidcrewbob on May 12, 2022 21:34:18 GMT
Has there been a "we back the manager for another season" statement from the club then ???? It's not necessary. You know fuck all then - you are just speculating on / hoping for an outcome that suits your view - same as the rest of us.......... Conversely I think it odd that there has been no club statement re what the plans are for next season now this dreadful season is behind us........ We shall see
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Post by kustokie on May 12, 2022 22:23:54 GMT
True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. You build football teams. Some managers can glue a side together quickly with a few additions but generally they have a reasonable foundation to begin with. I think we probably had that foundation, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to keep it together. 4m? Brown was 2.something million Surridge was 2.something million Wilmot was 2.something million Doughty was about 750k Thompson 4/500k? My guesstimate of 6m was under par for sure. That's closer to 8 It’s not just about money. Everton and Liverpool have both spent 800 million over the last nine years. As of today there is a 50 point difference between the two clubs.
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Post by kustokie on May 12, 2022 22:24:09 GMT
True but as I said, you build a team over a few years. £4 million added to a settled team might make a big difference. We are basically trying to build a team almost from scratch. You build football teams. Some managers can glue a side together quickly with a few additions but generally they have a reasonable foundation to begin with. I think we probably had that foundation, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to keep it together. 4m? Brown was 2.something million Surridge was 2.something million Wilmot was 2.something million Doughty was about 750k Thompson 4/500k? My guesstimate of 6m was under par for sure. That's closer to 8 It’s not just about money. Everton and Liverpool have both spent 800 million over the last nine years. As of today there is a 50 point difference between the two clubs.
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Post by jokker on May 12, 2022 22:29:01 GMT
You know fuck all then - you are just speculating on / hoping for an outcome that suits your view - same as the rest of us.......... Conversely I think it odd that there has been no club statement re what the plans are for next season now this dreadful season is behind us........ We shall see To comment on yours, I don't need to create hopes or speculate. I'm just looking at the facts: Michael O'Neill has a contract, which runs another year. The board don't nned to make a statement on what is bleedingly obvious!
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Post by Sfance on May 13, 2022 1:25:36 GMT
I knew it was too good to be true.
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Post by kidcrewbob on May 13, 2022 6:24:58 GMT
You know fuck all then - you are just speculating on / hoping for an outcome that suits your view - same as the rest of us.......... Conversely I think it odd that there has been no club statement re what the plans are for next season now this dreadful season is behind us........ We shall see To comment on yours, I don't need to create hopes or speculate. I'm just looking at the facts: Michael O'Neill has a contract, which runs another year. The board don't nned to make a statement on what is bleedingly obvious! You have a very naive viewpoint - the only fact is that MoN hasn't been sacked yet - thats all we know for sure and *every* manager has a contract - means nothing other than being a mechanism that would dictate any termination settlement - given the somewhat toxic situation - borne out by these 200+ pages and 300k views since Jan 22 - the board *DO* need and indeed *SHOULD* make a statement in my view as supporters want to hear what the plans are for next season. They should at least back him if indeed that is what they intend to do - I think their silence so far is interesting and at best less than supportive. Again, we shall see.......
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Post by jokker on May 13, 2022 7:04:34 GMT
To comment on yours, I don't need to create hopes or speculate. I'm just looking at the facts: Michael O'Neill has a contract, which runs another year. The board don't nned to make a statement on what is bleedingly obvious! You have a very naive viewpoint - the only fact is that MoN hasn't been sacked yet - thats all we know for sure and *every* manager has a contract - means nothing other than being a mechanism that would dictate any termination settlement - given the somewhat toxic situation - borne out by these 200+ pages and 300k views since Jan 22 - the board *DO* need and indeed *SHOULD* make a statement in my view as supporters want to hear what the plans are for next season. They should at least back him if indeed that is what they intend to do - I think their silence so far is interesting and at best less than supportive. Again, we shall see....... There is no "toxic" situation at boardroom level. They are blissfully unaware of kidcrewbob's unhappy state. The plans for next season are very clear: business as usual. You "hear" silence, but in fact the board and the manager meet every week for lunch and always discuss the state of the art. If they wanted to express dissatisfaction they would do it there, equally if they want to express support it is there. They don't want to make public statements, because based on the last few statements that they made, they know that every single word will be turned and twisted unendingly and ridiculed by people in this very forum and others like it.
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Post by kidcrewbob on May 13, 2022 7:14:25 GMT
You have a very naive viewpoint - the only fact is that MoN hasn't been sacked yet - thats all we know for sure and *every* manager has a contract - means nothing other than being a mechanism that would dictate any termination settlement - given the somewhat toxic situation - borne out by these 200+ pages and 300k views since Jan 22 - the board *DO* need and indeed *SHOULD* make a statement in my view as supporters want to hear what the plans are for next season. They should at least back him if indeed that is what they intend to do - I think their silence so far is interesting and at best less than supportive. Again, we shall see....... There is no "toxic" situation at boardroom level. They are blissfully unaware of kidcrewbob's unhappy state. The plans for next season are very clear: business as usual. You "hear" silence, but in fact the board and the manager meet every week for lunch and always discuss the state of the art. If they wanted to express dissatisfaction they would do it there, equally if they want to express support it is there. They don't want to make public statements, because based on the last few statements that they made, they know that every single word will be turned and twisted unendingly and ridiculed by people in this very forum and others like it. You're a fantasist and your "mummy knows best" views reflective what's wrong with the club - it's not the fucking 70s anymore
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Post by lordb on May 13, 2022 7:25:13 GMT
You have a very naive viewpoint - the only fact is that MoN hasn't been sacked yet - thats all we know for sure and *every* manager has a contract - means nothing other than being a mechanism that would dictate any termination settlement - given the somewhat toxic situation - borne out by these 200+ pages and 300k views since Jan 22 - the board *DO* need and indeed *SHOULD* make a statement in my view as supporters want to hear what the plans are for next season. They should at least back him if indeed that is what they intend to do - I think their silence so far is interesting and at best less than supportive. Again, we shall see....... There is no "toxic" situation at boardroom level. They are blissfully unaware of kidcrewbob's unhappy state. The plans for next season are very clear: business as usual. You "hear" silence, but in fact the board and the manager meet every week for lunch and always discuss the state of the art. If they wanted to express dissatisfaction they would do it there, equally if they want to express support it is there. They don't want to make public statements, because based on the last few statements that they made, they know that every single word will be turned and twisted unendingly and ridiculed by people in this very forum and others like it. I think this assessment of the boards position atm is correct
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