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Post by stokemark on May 12, 2022 10:51:02 GMT
I sadly have no doubt that we're stuck with him for next season, but it's difficult to back the manager based on the evidence of the past two seasons. You obviously seem quite happy to accept "inconsistent results and lacklustre, dour, boring football" as well as his baffling team selections and "tactics", and his plethora of excuses. The club isn't making progress, it's just treading water. He couldn't integrate 6 new signings in January into a better, more successful team, so I'm not holding my breath to see how he copes with the wholesale changes this summer. On what grounds do you reach your stupid judgment? I'm no more happy with what we're seeing than you are. But the simple fact, which you and a bunch of others seem incapable of understanding, is that there are only three people who make decisions about the manager, and they've decided to back him. No amount of repetitive messages in this thread by your lot is going to change that. So move on! Why call Deesides legitimate comments that 'stupid judgement' ? - the points being made are consistent with that of a large number of supporters All managers ultimately live or die based on results and performances and as to whether they are backed by the supporters or not and MON is no different. He may well survive the Summer but the writings on the wall that if things dont improve he is gone. Like Deeside I have seen nothing to think that they will and that we are just postponing the inevitable. Either way he (and I) are entitled to our opinions without someone like you trying to shut that down
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Post by kidcrewbob on May 12, 2022 10:54:25 GMT
I sadly have no doubt that we're stuck with him for next season, but it's difficult to back the manager based on the evidence of the past two seasons. You obviously seem quite happy to accept "inconsistent results and lacklustre, dour, boring football" as well as his baffling team selections and "tactics", and his plethora of excuses. The club isn't making progress, it's just treading water. He couldn't integrate 6 new signings in January into a better, more successful team, so I'm not holding my breath to see how he copes with the wholesale changes this summer. On what grounds do you reach your stupid judgment? I'm no more happy with what we're seeing than you are. But the simple fact, which you and a bunch of others seem incapable of understanding, is that there are only three people who make decisions about the manager, and they've decided to back him. No amount of repetitive messages in this thread by your lot is going to change that. So move on! Has there been a "we back the manager for another season" statement from the club then ????
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 12, 2022 11:12:17 GMT
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Post by a on May 12, 2022 11:19:17 GMT
MON knows his time is up at Stoke if he carries on the way he's been doing. That's why I think he will go for it this season and get us to the play offs or better. 😂 where as before he decided not to and settle for mid table
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Post by deeside2 on May 12, 2022 11:34:07 GMT
I sadly have no doubt that we're stuck with him for next season, but it's difficult to back the manager based on the evidence of the past two seasons. You obviously seem quite happy to accept "inconsistent results and lacklustre, dour, boring football" as well as his baffling team selections and "tactics", and his plethora of excuses. The club isn't making progress, it's just treading water. He couldn't integrate 6 new signings in January into a better, more successful team, so I'm not holding my breath to see how he copes with the wholesale changes this summer. On what grounds do you reach your stupid judgment? I'm no more happy with what we're seeing than you are. But the simple fact, which you and a bunch of others seem incapable of understanding, is that there are only three people who make decisions about the manager, and they've decided to back him. No amount of repetitive messages in this thread by your lot is going to change that. So move on! I'm very much aware who makes the decisions about the manager, and certainly don't need to be talked down to by the likes of you, thank you very much. Me and "my lot" as you so succinctly put it, don't have to agree with that decision, particularly in view of the past couple of seasons evidence. As such we, like you and "your lot", are perfectly entitled to voice our opinions, whether you like it or not, but there is no reason to resort to any nastiness just for expressing an opposing opinion. The past two seasons have both nosedived after promising starts (which I think you'd agree with), culminating in 14th place finishes, and in view of the mass player turnover this summer, the forthcoming season isn't exactly giving much cause for optimisim with this manager in charge. Hopefully I'm wrong, and time will tell, but at the present time I'm not convinced. Have a good day !
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 11:42:31 GMT
It is getting pretty tedious to be honest., though that doesn't excuse abusive language. 1. One group has decided that MON is the problem. Despite having no money to spend and having all the other problems to sort out, he should have been in the top 6 at least, and producing more attractive football at home. 2. Another group feels that he is making slow progress and has been unlucky with injuries and deserves more time. 3. A third group are unsure of the way forward given our poor record in appointing Managers and are reluctantly willing to let him see his contract run out next year. People say that we are in a shit league and we should be fighting for promotion even if we had about 18 overpaid players to unload and no cash to spend.. How many years did it take for Brentford to get up without the handicaps that we had. Wilder (who I rate) didn't manage to get Middlesboro even into the play offs in this shit league. Clubs like Barnsley, Reading, Derby etc. have infringed FPP trying to get promotion and have been penalised with points deductions and transfer embargoes. Who knows, we may have had restrictions placed on our own club. Either way we have had to rely mainly on free transfers, and loans to rebuild the side. We could only spend whatever cash we generated from transfers on very low priced players. Not exactly the best recipe for success.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 12, 2022 11:46:58 GMT
It is getting pretty tedious to be honest. 1. One group has decided that MON is the problem. Despite having no money to spend and having all the other problems to sort out, he should have been in the top 6 at least, and producing more attractive football at home. 2. Another group feels that he is making slow progress and has been unlucky with injuries and deserves more time. 3. A third group are unsure of the way forward given our poor record in appointing Managers and are reluctantly willing to let him see his contract run out next year. People say that we are in a shit league and we should be fighting for promotion even if we had about 18 overpaid players to unload and no cash to spend.. How many years did it take for Brentford to get up without the handicaps that we had. Wilder (who I rate) didn't manage to get Middlesboro even into the play offs in this shit league. Clubs like Barnsley, Reading, Derby etc. have infringed FPP trying to get promotion and have been penalised with points deductions and transfer embargoes. Who knows, we may have had restrictions placed on our own club. Either way we have had to rely mainly on free transfers, and loans to rebuild the side. We could only spend whatever cash we generated from transfers on very low priced players. Not exactly the best recipe for success. He's spent about 6 million quid.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 12, 2022 11:51:06 GMT
It is getting pretty tedious to be honest. 1. One group has decided that MON is the problem. Despite having no money to spend and having all the other problems to sort out, he should have been in the top 6 at least, and producing more attractive football at home. 2. Another group feels that he is making slow progress and has been unlucky with injuries and deserves more time. 3. A third group are unsure of the way forward given our poor record in appointing Managers and are reluctantly willing to let him see his contract run out next year. People say that we are in a shit league and we should be fighting for promotion even if we had about 18 overpaid players to unload and no cash to spend.. How many years did it take for Brentford to get up without the handicaps that we had. Wilder (who I rate) didn't manage to get Middlesboro even into the play offs in this shit league. Clubs like Barnsley, Reading, Derby etc. have infringed FPP trying to get promotion and have been penalised with points deductions and transfer embargoes. Who knows, we may have had restrictions placed on our own club. Either way we have had to rely mainly on free transfers, and loans to rebuild the side. We could only spend whatever cash we generated from transfers on very low priced players. Not exactly the best recipe for success. He's spent about 6 million quid. And it's a totally different world now. Only the parachute clubs are spending - and not all of them lavishly on fees. I just can't buy any argument where MON is said to have his hands tied more than anyone else in this league. We're not up against a gaggle of teams spending £2m, £3m, £4m on players. Everyone is full steam ahead on loans, Bosmans and sub-£500k transfers. Then it's down to management and motivation
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 12, 2022 11:52:45 GMT
MON knows his time is up at Stoke if he carries on the way he's been doing. That's why I think he will go for it this season and get us to the play offs or better. He went for it this season with his expensive Jan signings, it didn't go too well.
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Post by pushon on May 12, 2022 11:54:18 GMT
It is getting pretty tedious to be honest. 1. One group has decided that MON is the problem. Despite having no money to spend and having all the other problems to sort out, he should have been in the top 6 at least, and producing more attractive football at home. 2. Another group feels that he is making slow progress and has been unlucky with injuries and deserves more time. 3. A third group are unsure of the way forward given our poor record in appointing Managers and are reluctantly willing to let him see his contract run out next year. People say that we are in a shit league and we should be fighting for promotion even if we had about 18 overpaid players to unload and no cash to spend.. How many years did it take for Brentford to get up without the handicaps that we had. Wilder (who I rate) didn't manage to get Middlesboro even into the play offs in this shit league. Clubs like Barnsley, Reading, Derby etc. have infringed FPP trying to get promotion and have been penalised with points deductions and transfer embargoes. Who knows, we may have had restrictions placed on our own club. Either way we have had to rely mainly on free transfers, and loans to rebuild the side. We could only spend whatever cash we generated from transfers on very low priced players. Not exactly the best recipe for success. What about the parachute payments the club received? Before this managers time I know. But the club had a golden opportunity to achieve better than "bottom-half"of the championship results😥
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 12, 2022 11:54:50 GMT
He's spent about 6 million quid. And it's a totally different world now. Only the parachute clubs are spending - and not all of them lavishly on fees. I just can't buy any argument where MON is said to have his hands tied more than anyone else in this league. We're not up against a gaggle of teams spending £2m, £3m, £4m on players. Everyone is full steam ahead on loans, Bosmans and sub-£500k transfers. Then it's down to management and motivation I'm not sure how many times you've got to say it and show the evidence for it FM before it sticks. Like the Preston releasing 13 players thread. Yes it's more to the extreme end of the scale but clubs release a lot of players in this league. 2 year contracts are the norm etc.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 11:55:13 GMT
It is getting pretty tedious to be honest., though that doesn't excuse abusive language. 1. One group has decided that MON is the problem. Despite having no money to spend and having all the other problems to sort out, he should have been in the top 6 at least, and producing more attractive football at home. 2. Another group feels that he is making slow progress and has been unlucky with injuries and deserves more time. 3. A third group are unsure of the way forward given our poor record in appointing Managers and are reluctantly willing to let him see his contract run out next year. People say that we are in a shit league and we should be fighting for promotion even if we had about 18 overpaid players to unload and no cash to spend.. How many years did it take for Brentford to get up without the handicaps that we had. Wilder (who I rate) didn't manage to get Middlesboro even into the play offs in this shit league. Clubs like Barnsley, Reading, Derby etc. have infringed FPP trying to get promotion and have been penalised with points deductions and transfer embargoes. Who knows, we may have had restrictions placed on our own club. Either way we have had to rely mainly on free transfers, and loans to rebuild the side. We could only spend whatever cash we generated from transfers on very low priced players. Not exactly the best recipe for success. Bizarre invoking of Brentford, a smaller club than us who didn't have the 'handicaps' because they generated funds and made shrewd signings and managerial appointments. That they were even in the mix for promotion at all was impressive.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 11:56:31 GMT
He is showing a 3 million profit on transfers. To be able to buy a particular player, you have to be able to offer the wages and length of contract that the player wants. Given the inflated sense of their own worth that players have, the pool we can buy from is very limited. I see that FARKE is holding out for a Premier club or something decent in Germany, so it is not just players who have unrealistic expectations.
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Post by Rick Grimes on May 12, 2022 11:59:53 GMT
He is showing a 3 million profit on transfers. To be able to buy a particular player, you have to be able to offer the wages and length of contract that the player wants. Given the inflated sense of their own worth that players have, the pool we can buy from is very limited. I see that FARKE is holding out for a Premier club or something decent in Germany, so it is not just players who have unrealistic expectations. Your second and third sentences mean we are no different to most clubs in the Championship. It’s just not a viable excuse.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 12:03:19 GMT
It is getting pretty tedious to be honest., though that doesn't excuse abusive language. 1. One group has decided that MON is the problem. Despite having no money to spend and having all the other problems to sort out, he should have been in the top 6 at least, and producing more attractive football at home. 2. Another group feels that he is making slow progress and has been unlucky with injuries and deserves more time. 3. A third group are unsure of the way forward given our poor record in appointing Managers and are reluctantly willing to let him see his contract run out next year. People say that we are in a shit league and we should be fighting for promotion even if we had about 18 overpaid players to unload and no cash to spend.. How many years did it take for Brentford to get up without the handicaps that we had. Wilder (who I rate) didn't manage to get Middlesboro even into the play offs in this shit league. Clubs like Barnsley, Reading, Derby etc. have infringed FPP trying to get promotion and have been penalised with points deductions and transfer embargoes. Who knows, we may have had restrictions placed on our own club. Either way we have had to rely mainly on free transfers, and loans to rebuild the side. We could only spend whatever cash we generated from transfers on very low priced players. Not exactly the best recipe for success. Bizarre invoking of Brentford, a smaller club than us who didn't have the 'handicaps' because they generated funds and made shrewd signings and managerial appointments. That they were even in the mix for promotion at all was impressive. I agree that they have been well managed and despite having to sell their CF along the way have survived a season in the Premiership. Had they been run into debt like us they would probably be lucky to be in League One. They are another of the clubs using Data to base all their decisions on. The owner is a former employee of the Brighton owner who is really big into Data.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 12:08:34 GMT
He is showing a 3 million profit on transfers. To be able to buy a particular player, you have to be able to offer the wages and length of contract that the player wants. Given the inflated sense of their own worth that players have, the pool we can buy from is very limited. I see that FARKE is holding out for a Premier club or something decent in Germany, so it is not just players who have unrealistic expectations. Your second and third sentences mean we are no different to most clubs in the Championship. It’s just not a viable excuse. I take your point but I think that we are a little more limited. 1. By FFP. 2. By the fact that we still have to unload players, and even next season will be paying out millions in wages on players who won't kick a ball for us.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 12:17:20 GMT
Bizarre invoking of Brentford, a smaller club than us who didn't have the 'handicaps' because they generated funds and made shrewd signings and managerial appointments. That they were even in the mix for promotion at all was impressive. I agree that they have been well managed and despite having to sell their CF along the way have survived a season in the Premiership. Had they been run into debt like us they would probably be lucky to be in League One. They are another of the clubs using Data to base all their decisions on. The owner is a former employee of the Brighton owner who is really big into Data. Yep - they've been ahead of the curve. We almost seem proud of being years behind it.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 12:18:08 GMT
Your second and third sentences mean we are no different to most clubs in the Championship. It’s just not a viable excuse. I take your point but I think that we are a little more limited. 1. By FFP. 2. By the fact that we still have to unload players, and even next season will be paying out millions in wages on players who won't kick a ball for us. But we've still been able to spend £4m in spite of those limitations, which is more than a number of clubs above us in the table?
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 12:25:12 GMT
I agree we have been very badly run as a club and only for the owner's wealth we would probably be in Derby's position. I think MON is a good manager but I'm not sure that he can turn the club around sufficiently to prevent us repeating our mistakes in the future. I can't say that I am optimistic about the coming season given the restrictions we are working under. Even tho' this season a few more wins would have had us in the play offs. It's the quality of the Football that really concerns me.
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Post by cheadlepotter on May 12, 2022 12:29:01 GMT
I agree that they have been well managed and despite having to sell their CF along the way have survived a season in the Premiership. Had they been run into debt like us they would probably be lucky to be in League One. They are another of the clubs using Data to base all their decisions on. The owner is a former employee of the Brighton owner who is really big into Data. Yep - they've been ahead of the curve. We almost seem proud of being years behind it. It’s the Stoke-On-Trent way.
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Post by Rick Grimes on May 12, 2022 12:31:37 GMT
Your second and third sentences mean we are no different to most clubs in the Championship. It’s just not a viable excuse. I take your point but I think that we are a little more limited. 1. By FFP. 2. By the fact that we still have to unload players, and even next season will be paying out millions in wages on players who won't kick a ball for us. We’re just not limited though in comparison to most of the Championshp. We can’t spend what we’d like to spend for sure, but we’re paying fees for players where most clubs aren’t, and we’ve still been able to get players like Sawyers on loan who will be on decent wages by Championship standards.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 12, 2022 12:34:12 GMT
I take your point but I think that we are a little more limited. 1. By FFP. 2. By the fact that we still have to unload players, and even next season will be paying out millions in wages on players who won't kick a ball for us. We’re just not limited though in comparison to most of the Championshp. We can’t spend what we’d like to spend for sure but we’re paying fees for players where most clubs aren’t and we’ve still been able to get players like Sawyers on loan who will be on decent wages by Championship standards. All of the loans this season have been premium ones. Sawyers will be on lots of money. THB is highly rated in the footballing world and is the England u21 captain. JPB is massively rated at Villa and was wanted by half the league. Ostigard will be on decent wages, is highly rated and then moved up a level when leaving us. Sima had just been bought by a PL club for 7m was it? Premium deals.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 12:35:35 GMT
I take your point but I think that we are a little more limited. 1. By FFP. 2. By the fact that we still have to unload players, and even next season will be paying out millions in wages on players who won't kick a ball for us. But we've still been able to spend £4m in spite of those limitations, which is more than a number of clubs above us in the table? £4 million is not a lot of money when spread over several players. Obviously it is better than nothing. When you are juggling it is very hard to get the side you want to put together. This concentration on the clubs above us is to my mind immaterial. The points and goal differences are so small that a couple of results by any of them would have transformed their league position. Hopefully, we will be better next season but will Souttar take a season to get back to his best and will Tyrese come good. These are important players for us.
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 12:39:00 GMT
We’re just not limited though in comparison to most of the Championshp. We can’t spend what we’d like to spend for sure but we’re paying fees for players where most clubs aren’t and we’ve still been able to get players like Sawyers on loan who will be on decent wages by Championship standards. All of the loans this season have been premium ones. Sawyers will be on lots of money. THB is highly rated in the footballing world and is the England u21 captain. JPB is massively rated at Villa and was wanted by half the league. Ostigard will be on decent wages, is highly rated and then moved up a level when leaving us. Sima had just been bought by a PL club for 7m was it? Premium deals. You are obviously well informed regarding the percentage of these players wages that are being paid by Stoke. Please share it with us,.
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Post by thevoid on May 12, 2022 12:40:15 GMT
He needs backing into a corner with a large Dunce hat on , because his Stoke report this season and last would read , very poor D And what would your report card say..? Fans aren't accountable for results and performances, Joker. Hope this helps Now kindly take your anti-Stoke WUMming elsewhere
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 12, 2022 12:42:24 GMT
All of the loans this season have been premium ones. Sawyers will be on lots of money. THB is highly rated in the footballing world and is the England u21 captain. JPB is massively rated at Villa and was wanted by half the league. Ostigard will be on decent wages, is highly rated and then moved up a level when leaving us. Sima had just been bought by a PL club for 7m was it? Premium deals. You are obviously well informed regarding the percentage of these players wages that are being paid by Stoke. Please share it with us,. I have no idea but you'd expect it'd be quite a bit. The manager called the January deals "expensive" for instance.
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Post by willieeetmiout on May 12, 2022 12:44:41 GMT
We’re just not limited though in comparison to most of the Championshp. We can’t spend what we’d like to spend for sure but we’re paying fees for players where most clubs aren’t and we’ve still been able to get players like Sawyers on loan who will be on decent wages by Championship standards. All of the loans this season have been premium ones. Sawyers will be on lots of money. THB is highly rated in the footballing world and is the England u21 captain. JPB is massively rated at Villa and was wanted by half the league. Ostigard will be on decent wages, is highly rated and then moved up a level when leaving us. Sima had just been bought by a PL club for 7m was it? Premium deals. People seem to think that FFP means we are on a level playing field with Luton for example. This is of course nonsense. Our club generates significantly more income than Luton so has a significantly greater spending capacity than them. That's allows us to offer better wages and longer contracts meaning we should in theory get better players. It is a theory of course as our recruitment has been shit
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 12:56:20 GMT
But we've still been able to spend £4m in spite of those limitations, which is more than a number of clubs above us in the table? £4 million is not a lot of money when spread over several players. Obviously it is better than nothing. When you are juggling it is very hard to get the side you want to put together. This concentration on the clubs above us is to my mind immaterial. The points and goal differences are so small that a couple of results by any of them would have transformed their league position. Hopefully, we will be better next season but will Souttar take a season to get back to his best and will Tyrese come good. These are important players for us. It's fairly material when there are clubs between between 7 and 20 points ahead of us who didn't spend close to that. That surely nullifies it as an excuse?
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Post by independent on May 12, 2022 13:17:35 GMT
£4 million is not a lot of money when spread over several players. Obviously it is better than nothing. When you are juggling it is very hard to get the side you want to put together. This concentration on the clubs above us is to my mind immaterial. The points and goal differences are so small that a couple of results by any of them would have transformed their league position. Hopefully, we will be better next season but will Souttar take a season to get back to his best and will Tyrese come good. These are important players for us. It's fairly material when there are clubs between between 7 and 20 points ahead of us who didn't spend close to that. That surely nullifies it as an excuse? I don't see it as an excuse, just an irrelevence in the greater scheme of things. We would more than likely recoup all of that on Brown alone. One year taken in isolation can be misleading. Teams are usually built over several seasons. Luton have been living within their means, we have not. Luckily our owners recently wrote off 160 million worth of debt for us and I think we still owe 90 million. Some of that debt still impinges on our FFP figures. So at least in that respect Luton are in a better FFP position than us even tho' we have a greater income. More than likely MON will leave Stoke in June '23. He will leave the club in much better shape than he found it. If all our future managers can say the same then we will be alright.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 12, 2022 13:33:04 GMT
It's fairly material when there are clubs between between 7 and 20 points ahead of us who didn't spend close to that. That surely nullifies it as an excuse? I don't see it as an excuse, just an irrelevence in the greater scheme of things. We would more than likely recoup all of that on Brown alone. One year taken in isolation can be misleading. Teams are usually built over several seasons. Luton have been living within their means, we have not. Luckily our owners recently wrote off 160 million worth of debt for us and I think we still owe 90 million. Some of that debt still impinges on our FFP figures. So at least in that respect Luton are in a better FFP position than us even tho' we have a greater income. More than likely MON will leave Stoke in June '23. He will leave the club in much better shape than he found it. If all our future managers can say the same then we will be alright. You keep missing or ignoring the point though. With or without FFP, we are still able to spend more than them? It's a case of using the resources - which still appear to be substantial for this league - better rather than the sob story about our limitations.
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