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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 20, 2022 8:56:21 GMT
It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? It’s good maybe appeals more to nurds. That's why I like them......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2022 8:56:22 GMT
What on God's earth is that pile of bollocks? It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? You missed meaningless and pointless off mate I don't need a graph to tell me how well our centre backs have performed, I have seen with my ow eyes how many headers they have or haven't won, and passing stats are the biggest load of bollocks in the world of stats, in my opinion obviously.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 8:57:19 GMT
Murray Wallace, Millwall. 29 years old, Pisces. Sounds affordable.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 8:59:31 GMT
Murray Wallace, Millwall. 29 years old, Pisces. Sounds affordable. Can’t say he stood out if he was on when we played them not long back. There again non of them did.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 20, 2022 9:36:10 GMT
What on God's earth is that pile of bollocks? It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 9:41:17 GMT
It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know. You could use it with your coaches too not just for recruitment. I'd be taking it to them(whilst he was fit and playing obviously) and asking with the aerial dominance Souttar provides why are we not producing more goals from corners and dead balls into the box. It highlights and confirms what you're seeing with your own eys and should lead you to question your corner and set play routines which indeed look poor and unimaginitive to the naked eye.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 20, 2022 9:44:42 GMT
I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know. You could use it with your coaches too not just for recruitment. I'd be taking it to them(whilst he was fit and playing obviously) and asking with the aerial dominance Souttar provides why are we not producing more goals from corners and dead balls into the box. It highlights and confirms what you're seeing with your own eys and should lead you to question your corner and set play routines which indeed look poor and unimaginitive to the naked eye. Can you see Saint Peter getting his head round this? 😱
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 20, 2022 9:48:01 GMT
I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know. You could use it with your coaches too not just for recruitment. I'd be taking it to them(whilst he was fit and playing obviously) and asking with the aerial dominance Souttar provides why are we not producing more goals from corners and dead balls into the box. It highlights and confirms what you're seeing with your own eys and should lead you to question your corner and set play routines which indeed look poor and unimaginitive to the naked eye. We are very slow and unimaginative with all our set pieces including throws. It’s almost like we’re playing by numbers. We rarely take anything quickly either. The two we did recently from free kicks against the Baggies we scored.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 9:50:46 GMT
You could use it with your coaches too not just for recruitment. I'd be taking it to them(whilst he was fit and playing obviously) and asking with the aerial dominance Souttar provides why are we not producing more goals from corners and dead balls into the box. It highlights and confirms what you're seeing with your own eys and should lead you to question your corner and set play routines which indeed look poor and unimaginitive to the naked eye. Can you see Saint Peter getting his head round this? 😱 He shouldn't have to he should be nowhere near footballing decisions. MON's meant to like all the data stuff but you've got to ask yourself what he draws from it because as I say there's little invention or change to our set play routines all season. Some of them such as a simple throw in the data must be terrible.
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 20, 2022 9:55:36 GMT
Can you see Saint Peter getting his head round this? 😱 He shouldn't have to he should be nowhere near footballing decisions. MON's meant to like all the data stuff but you've got to ask yourself what he draws from it because as I say there's little invention or change to our set play routines all season. Some of them such as a simple throw in the data must be terrible. All you need to do when we get a throw is mark Joe Allen. He’s the only one who ever moves and all he does is pass it straight back to the thrower. As you say the throw in stats must be horrible.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 10:36:59 GMT
He shouldn't have to he should be nowhere near footballing decisions. MON's meant to like all the data stuff but you've got to ask yourself what he draws from it because as I say there's little invention or change to our set play routines all season. Some of them such as a simple throw in the data must be terrible. All you need to do when we get a throw is mark Joe Allen. He’s the only one who ever moves and all he does is pass it straight back to the thrower. As you say the throw in stats must be horrible. Sometimes the player varies Vrancic has done the Allen role in that play quite a bit but it's always the same only the reciever is moving and plays it directly back to the thrower and the ammount of times it results in us losing possession is well a lot more than it should be.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Apr 20, 2022 10:52:00 GMT
Can you see Saint Peter getting his head round this? 😱 He shouldn't have to he should be nowhere near footballing decisions. MON's meant to like all the data stuff but you've got to ask yourself what he draws from it because as I say there's little invention or change to our set play routines all season. Some of them such as a simple throw in the data must be terrible. From one of the interviews it seems like he's got his entire idea of how he wants them to play from stats. Looking at how those promoted played etc, which to me seems a bit of a problem, when you're trying to copy it never turns out as good.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 10:58:47 GMT
He shouldn't have to he should be nowhere near footballing decisions. MON's meant to like all the data stuff but you've got to ask yourself what he draws from it because as I say there's little invention or change to our set play routines all season. Some of them such as a simple throw in the data must be terrible. From one of the interviews it seems like he's got his entire idea of how he wants them to play from stats. Looking at how those promoted played etc, which to me seems a bit of a problem, when you're trying to copy it never turns out as good. Not sure I get your reasoning you think doing what can be seen to work in the here and now is a bad idea and we should do what? re invent the wheel, do something that used to be successful that isn't anymore, be completely original and reshape global football thinking. Don't tell me you want us to play dour longball football because it worked once.
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Post by lordb on Apr 20, 2022 11:03:35 GMT
It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know. 'Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups' that's the issue with TB in particular he simply has to reduce those radically, if he does he will end up a decent defender no doubt if he doesn't he'll end up like Liam Lyndsey
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Post by boskampsflaps on Apr 20, 2022 11:15:30 GMT
From one of the interviews it seems like he's got his entire idea of how he wants them to play from stats. Looking at how those promoted played etc, which to me seems a bit of a problem, when you're trying to copy it never turns out as good. Not sure I get your reasoning you think doing what can be seen to work in the here and now is a bad idea and we should do what? re invent the wheel, do something that used to be successful that isn't anymore, be completely original and reshape global football thinking. Don't tell me you want us to play dour longball football because it worked once. No, sorry if my point wasn't clear. I feel that basing a system on what others have done restricts things somewhat, It stifles any sort of creative thinking or ideas that could work because you're trying to imitate something else so if it doesn't fit within that frame work it gets ignored. I'm not sure that's any clearer tbh But no, its nothing to do with hoofball. Edit, not sure why you've got me down as a lover of long ball tbh, personally I think a successful team needs to be able to adapt rather than be stuck with one way of playing.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 20, 2022 11:16:23 GMT
I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know. 'Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups' that's the issue with TB in particular he simply has to reduce those radically, if he does he will end up a decent defender no doubt if he doesn't he'll end up like Liam Lyndsey When you look at his stats on WhoScored in terms of him miscontrolling the ball and giving the ball away in possession they're actually good, I wonder whether he's just been punished for all his mistakes and not got away with any, there's certainly 2/3 major ones that spring to mind........
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Post by chiswickpotter on Apr 20, 2022 11:17:37 GMT
What on God's earth is that pile of bollocks? It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? Does it distinguish successful and unsuccessful progression? Strikes we Wilmott and THB May suffer if success is included on their passing
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 20, 2022 11:23:20 GMT
I think I get it now. I couldn’t get the perspective on my phone. I’ve had a look at it on my slaptop (in zoom so I can see it) and get it now. Looks like we’ve got 3 cracking centrebacks. Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups. From what I’ve observed I would have said that Souttar was way more progressive than THB and that THB was much better in the air than Wilmot. Shows what I know. 'Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups' that's the issue with TB in particular he simply has to reduce those radically, if he does he will end up a decent defender no doubt if he doesn't he'll end up like Liam Lyndsey He does need to cut those errors out but I’m sure he will. It’s a bit unfair to compare him with Lindsay. He’s a way better footballer now than Lindsay will ever be and his mistakes are from trying too hard to pass the ball out rather than falling over or misskicking.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 20, 2022 11:25:46 GMT
It's a fairly simple graph showing the aerial dominance and progressive passing of each Championship centre half that's played over 1500 mins of football. I'm not sure I can put it any other way? Does it distinguish successful and unsuccessful progression? Strikes we Wilmott and THB May suffer if success is included on their passing It's successful passes yes. Harwood-Bellis has an 81% pass success rate, which is 3rd behind Sawyers (86%) and Allen (82.7%), Wilmott's is 72% which puts him about 7th or 8th........
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Post by lordb on Apr 20, 2022 11:25:52 GMT
'Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups' that's the issue with TB in particular he simply has to reduce those radically, if he does he will end up a decent defender no doubt if he doesn't he'll end up like Liam Lyndsey He does need to cut those errors out but I’m sure he will. It’s a bit unfair to compare him with Lindsay. He’s a way better footballer now than Lindsay will ever be and his mistakes are from trying too hard to pass the ball out rather than falling over or misskicking. That's all true he's only 20(?) so should improve Presumably a bottom half Premier League side will snap him up
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 20, 2022 11:29:38 GMT
'Although it doesn’t highlight cock ups' that's the issue with TB in particular he simply has to reduce those radically, if he does he will end up a decent defender no doubt if he doesn't he'll end up like Liam Lyndsey He does need to cut those errors out but I’m sure he will. It’s a bit unfair to compare him with Lindsay. He’s a way better footballer now than Lindsay will ever be and his mistakes are from trying too hard to pass the ball out rather than falling over or misskicking. His biggest attribute seems to be his reading of the game, only Shaun Hutchinson of Millwall has more interceptions per game of all Championship centre halves........
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Post by femark on Apr 20, 2022 11:30:57 GMT
This suggests two things to me: 1) Harry Souttar is worth his weight in gold 2) THB and Souttar would be a potentially brilliant centre half pairing or as part of a back three with Wilmott. Ronnie Edwards (one of the worst CB's statistically) is supposedly off to Crystal Palace for £15m...
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 20, 2022 12:16:13 GMT
Not sure I get your reasoning you think doing what can be seen to work in the here and now is a bad idea and we should do what? re invent the wheel, do something that used to be successful that isn't anymore, be completely original and reshape global football thinking. Don't tell me you want us to play dour longball football because it worked once. No, sorry if my point wasn't clear. I feel that basing a system on what others have done restricts things somewhat, It stifles any sort of creative thinking or ideas that could work because you're trying to imitate something else so if it doesn't fit within that frame work it gets ignored. I'm not sure that's any clearer tbh But no, its nothing to do with hoofball. Edit, not sure why you've got me down as a lover of long ball tbh, personally I think a successful team needs to be able to adapt rather than be stuck with one way of playing. I don't see the need to be an absolute carbon copy of any other team is neccessary just that I think you're much more likely to find success by emulating various aspect of recent success rather than trying to drag football back decades to the days of George Graham's Arsenal lets say 1-0 to the Arsenal. I don't see low scoring teams who prioritise defence over attack finding success anywhere much in more modern times and I do think whether possession based or long ball we seem to be obsessed with doing that due to the type of manager we normally recruit or get linked with. I'm not a purist by any stretch of the imagination, if a team comes to our ground sits in and tries to strangle the game I think it's a perfectly legitimate tactic to pen them in and bombard their box. I just don't want to watch a team that can't do anything else. I do get a little irrational about Pulisball 10 years of frustration with mainly mindnumbing football with about as many games worth watching as you could count on your fingers and toes. I'm not enjoying MON ball either not sure his strike rate is much higher in the entertainment stakes. Tired of the club and many of it's fans facination with the dour and do get a bit cranky about it.
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Post by tachyon on Apr 21, 2022 7:56:27 GMT
We are very slow and unimaginative with all our set pieces including throws. It’s almost like we’re playing by numbers. We rarely take anything quickly either. There's around 40 throw ins per game. So 20 opportunities to retain possession and 20 chances to get cheap ball. It's an area where marginal gains are still up for grabs. On average just over half of throws result in the throwing side retaining controlled possession. Keeping controlled possession from a throw is strongly related to where you are throwing it from and where you're throwing it to. Throwing long and away from your own goal appears to be a sub optimal tactic (unless you can throw it a very long way). Backwards or lateral is more efficient. Liverpool employ this guy on a freelance basis. Klopp's been impressed with the results. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Apr 21, 2022 8:06:11 GMT
We are very slow and unimaginative with all our set pieces including throws. It’s almost like we’re playing by numbers. We rarely take anything quickly either. There's around 40 throw ins per game. So 20 opportunities to retain possession and 20 chances to get cheap ball. It's an area where marginal gains are still up for grabs. On average just over half of throws result in the throwing side retaining controlled possession. Keeping controlled possession from a throw is strongly related to where you are throwing it from and where you're throwing it to. Throwing long and away from your own goal appears to be a sub optimal tactic (unless you can throw it a very long way). Backwards or lateral is more efficient. Liverpool employ this guy on a freelance basis. Klopp's been impressed with the results. View AttachmentI get that mate but we rarely seem to do anything quick or spontaneously even when it would be advantageous and give us a quick attacking option. I can see that taking your time in the defensive half and waiting for everyone to be set before taking a throw or free kick (or even goal kick or throw/kick out of the keepers hands) but sometimes I'm screaming for a quick release yet we seem to be doing stuff by rote. Not only do our receivers get set but the defenders do as well so you lose any advantage you might have had other than simply recycling possession (or not from our throws). You couldn't do it every time but occasionally as we showed at West Brom the unexpected pays off.
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Post by tachyon on Apr 21, 2022 8:09:23 GMT
There's around 40 throw ins per game. So 20 opportunities to retain possession and 20 chances to get cheap ball. It's an area where marginal gains are still up for grabs. On average just over half of throws result in the throwing side retaining controlled possession. Keeping controlled possession from a throw is strongly related to where you are throwing it from and where you're throwing it to. Throwing long and away from your own goal appears to be a sub optimal tactic (unless you can throw it a very long way). Backwards or lateral is more efficient. Liverpool employ this guy on a freelance basis. Klopp's been impressed with the results. View AttachmentI get that mate but we rarely seem to do anything quick or spontaneously even when it would be advantageous and give us a quick attacking option. I can see that taking your time in the defensive half and waiting for everyone to be set before taking a throw or free kick (or even goal kick or throw/kick out of the keepers hands) but sometimes I'm screaming for a quick release yet we seem to be doing stuff by rote. Not only do our receivers get set but the defenders do as well so you lose any advantage you might have had other than simply recycling possession (or not from our throws). You couldn't do it every time but occasionally as we showed at West Brom the unexpected pays off. Agree. Speed is a free resource, but needs players who know their role in a situation. None more so than from throw ins.
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Post by jimmygscfc1234 on Apr 21, 2022 10:30:36 GMT
So that comes down to coaching. Who's not doing their job?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 21, 2022 21:46:13 GMT
This suggests two things to me: 1) Harry Souttar is worth his weight in gold 2) THB and Souttar would be a potentially brilliant centre half pairing or as part of a back three with Wilmott. Ronnie Edwards (one of the worst CB's statistically) is supposedly off to Crystal Palace for £15m...
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Apr 22, 2022 7:25:04 GMT
Ronnie Edwards (one of the worst CB's statistically) is supposedly off to Crystal Palace for £15m... Only just noticed there are quite a lot more coloured dots than names. And what do the colours mean anyway? Loads of dots without names in the target quarter. Are Wilmot’s progressive stats skewed by playing RB/RWB on quite a few occasions?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 22, 2022 7:39:51 GMT
Only just noticed there are quite a lot more coloured dots than names. And what do the colours mean anyway? Loads of dots without names in the target quarter. Are Wilmot’s progressive stats skewed by playing RB/RWB on quite a few occasions? There's some players who's names are not on there, he's replied separately for about 15 of them...... And the shaded area is the 75th and 25th percentile.....
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